I just got word the Matetse-2 caught fire, and "left it without a blade of grass". I'm being switched to the "Woodlands Concession". Anyone have a clue where that is, and quality of the game?

Woodlands is one of the private farms along the matetsi boundary. (east of Matetsi)

Not sure who is on the place now

Woodlands is a property that has been taken from the owner by the Mugabe govt. If you are hunting on Woodlands you are supporting ZanuPF and Mugabe directly.

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
If you are hunting on Woodlands you are supporting ZanuPF and Mugabe directly.

Can´t that be said of all hunting in Zim?

Anyone doing successful business in Zim that earns foreign currency probably has a "silent partner" from the ZANU regime whether they want to or not. They are in "survival mode"....

i believe i'd check out and make sure that the area owners aren't on the state dept's bad guy list, which could get you into trouble if you go there

You might want to check out the updated SDN list at www.huntingreport.com under Special Forum The Zimbabwe Crisis.
You should probably get a statement from the outfitter that he's aware of this list and he's not on it.

Woodlands is/was a privately owned ranch which is/was owned by Larry Cummings - a well known outfitter, PH and 3rd generation Matetsi resident.

If you hunt there you are hunting on stolen property - clear as day.

I hope you don't.

Kensco is from Jakarta, so could be non-American. Which means any American laws do not affect him if he wishes to continue his hunt.

Bwanamich, You hit the nail on the head. I'm fed-up with special-interests always trying to bad-mouth "the other guy".

If you look back a little further we stole most of the Southwest, including Texas from the Mexicans, who stole most of it from the indians. Hope you don't go there, buy anything from there, etc., etc.


We stole Florida from the Seminoles, let's be sure to give that back, and for God's sake don't live there and support the Seminole genocide that took place.

Don't buy foreign cars, please, because they've put American's out of jobs.

Don't buy Citgo gas, you're supporting Chaves and communism.

There is no end to the list of do-gooder-don'ts. One of my guys has a saying, "you can beat me, or insult me, just don't bore me.

The State Department's list of bad guys????? The State Department has supported, has backed, has put in power, most of the bad guys that ever held power anywhere in the world, particularly South America and Asia. Our specialty was keeping dictators in power as long as they gave us what we wanted.

Sorry, I got off on a rant.

My positive contribution to the animals of Zimbabwe is that I continue to hunt them. If the country finds the animals are of no economic value because the hunters don't come, they are doomed.

quote:

Bwanamich, You hit the nail on the head. I'm fed-up with special-interests always trying to bad-mouth "the other guy".

The difference here is that if you deal with someone on the State Department's Office of Foregin Assets Control list of blocked persons and specially designated nationals you are subject to substantial penalties. It is not just a PR issue. I am not saying you will be.

I leave it to the Lacey Act gurus as to whether there are any additional issues for trophy importation from seized farms as I have no idea.

Whether the State Department looks beyond your safari company to the owner or concession holder is something I do not know, but I wanted more assurance than that when I hunted Zim.

More info from OFAC, just a general FYI:

quote:

Who must comply with OFAC regulations?

All U.S. persons must comply with OFAC regulations, including all U.S. citizens and permanent resident aliens regardless of where they are located, all persons and entities within the United States, all U.S. incorporated entities and their foreign branches. In the cases of certain programs, such as those regarding Cuba and North Korea, all foreign subsidiaries owned or controlled by U.S. companies also must comply. Certain programs also require foreign persons in possession of U.S. origin goods to comply. [09-10-02]


How much are the fines for violating these regulations?

The fines for violations can be substantial. Depending on the program, criminal penalties can include fines ranging from $50,000 to $10,000,000 and imprisonment ranging from 10 to 30 years for willful violations. Depending on the program, civil penalties range from $250,000 or twice the amount of each underlying transaction to $1,075,000 for each violation. [11-16-07]

The link to the current list of "bad guys" is on the OFAC page at the link above.

Sorry that your hunt is changing at the last minute, and I hope you get whatever assurances you need from the safari company.

quote:

If you look back a little further we stole most of the Southwest, including Texas from the Mexicans, who stole most of it from the indians. Hope you don't go there, buy anything from there, etc., etc.

Yeah, well the mexicans are in the process of stealing it (Texas) back.

Kensco: You need to send me a PM with your phone number. We need to talk. As Eddie Murphy says....TRUST ME ON THIS. I know who owns/operates Woodlands. I know the PH's who hunt there. I know the safari company who has the hunting rights there. I know the cook. I know the ladies who clean the huts. Heck I even know the guys who carry the wood for the fires at night. I know every watering hole / point. Get the picture.
Yes, I have been there on no less than 10 safari's.
Yes, the land was reappropriated (stolen) from the Cummings family. etc. etc. etc. etc.

and still you hunt on this property?

I heard that about half of Matetsi Unit 3 went up as well.

TNJohn: Let me ask you a question....Can you READ????
In my post, previous to yours.....was there anywhere in the post that said I had hunted there? NO. I said.....I had been there on no less than 10 safari's. That is why I would like to speak to the person privately. To keep certain pieces of information away from judgemental, jump to conclusion, individuals. If indeed this person has be "reassigned" to this hunting area. There is some important information that he may like to know.

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
Woodlands is a property that has been taken from the owner by the Mugabe govt. If you are hunting on Woodlands you are supporting ZanuPF and Mugabe directly.

Smell the coffee...ANY money spent in Zim benefits Mugabe. Give the guy a break.

quote:

Originally posted by bcolyer:
TNJohn: Let me ask you a question....Can you READ????
In my post, previous to yours.....was there anywhere in the post that said I had hunted there? NO. I said.....I had been there on no less than 10 safari's. That is why I would like to speak to the person privately. To keep certain pieces of information away from judgemental, jump to conclusion, individuals. If indeed this person has be "reassigned" to this hunting area. There is some important information that he may like to know.

TNJohn,

Consider yourself spanked!!

I was of the impression that burning the grass of made the hunting better?

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
I was of the impression that burning the grass of made the hunting better?

I'm suspicious that an ENTIRE concession could burn, and considering the suggested move...but perhaps. Camps have gone down in a blaze too.

Jerry, others in the business know more then I, but my understanding is that burning is good when done earlier in the season (yet not too green or the burn will be poor - a bit of an art to this I think), and the new grass has a chance to grow.

I am always amazed how we drive thru spectacular grassy areas, only to find (see!) the animals standing in the middle of a seemingly burned patch of ground. My thought is that it is not only the new tender shoots that they are after, but also the security of being able to see around them. However, areas that are burned too late won't green up until the first rains, except perhaps pockets where there is moisture.

If indeed all of "Matetsi 2" burned, then perhaps the move to another area is prudent (not commenting on the area suggested, I have no clue about this). A boom for surrounding areas though...if an operator burns too much, the animals will move out. I have been told that the trick is to burn "blocks" so they have cover AND a constant supply of new growth at least early in the season (water plays a roll too - again a bit of an art that the operators who have been in an area should acquire)...and to suck the game out of the neighbor's concession!

For what it's worth: One morning, two years ago on the overlook platform that is just outside the all Rhodesian Teak sleeping quarters on Woodlands. I walked out at dawn and turned on the video camera with a brand new mini-dv tape. The camera ran for 1 hour and two minutes before the tape finally ran out. IN ALL THAT TIME I NEVER SHUT THE CAMERA OFF ONCE. In front of me passed a herd of buffalo in a constant stream, spreading out and grazing in the valley below. My best guess-tament was no less than 1,500 buffalo....perhaps as many as 2,000 in ONE HERD! Probably 200+ hard horn bulls. Everyone about 35-38 inches. Absolutely the standard 'Matetsi bull'.
Last year during the two-three week period I was there, nearly everyday there were 400-800 buff on the concession. I have also seen it when there were absolutely zero (0) buff on the property. Now......if Matetsi 2 has in fact burned. I cannot imagine what that place could have on it buffalo wise. There is tremendous water on the property that can water herds that big. Nyati Dam is HUGE, not to mention the other 5-6 watering points. Mr. Cummings did one hell of a job building tanks and improving the property. Unless you see it, it is unbelievable to conceive what he did in building up that place. Use your imagination to figure what has been done since he (and family) left.

Matetsi 2 is a pretty dry and open concession and does not sustain burning.

Burning benefits in areas like the Selous in tanzania, which gets 3 times Zim's rainfall. Also there can be no green shoot in late winter or at least very little as the water table is low and rains not expected for another 3 months or so.

As regards justifications above like "we stole Texas", they are just that. We are pretty quick to forget when our own self interest is at stake aren't we?

There are plenty of legally and morally justifiable places to hunt in Zim, don't hunt on stolen land.

Just say no.

I would have no problem in hunting from a Nat Park safari Area BUT hunting on a recently stolen farm is like buying stolen tools off the street.
I would listen to JT on this subject.

quote:

If you look back a little further we stole most of the Southwest, including Texas from the Mexicans, who stole most of it from the indians. Hope you don't go there, buy anything from there, etc., etc.

So does that make it RIGHT?
Sorry

Well, I suspect the real reason for the change in concession is that Matetsi Unit 2 was auctioned three weeks ago. There was alot of wrangling/lying/attempsts to get presidential intervention etc after the auction... but the area is under new management from 1st september

AAAAAAH so the plot thickens.

Nice people you seem to be dealing with Kensco.

Hang on guys, let's not jump to conclusions. I have no idea whether Matetsi 2 has been re-auctioned or whether management of that unit has changed. But I do have confirmation from a separate source that extensive burning has taken place in Matetsi 2.

Quite apart from whether it is morally correct to hunt on land with questionable ownership - lots of those in Zim these days. Let's not forget, that Kensco was faced with with a cancelled/rearranged hunt about 2 weeks prior to his departure for Zim. By this time, it will likely be awfully late to rebook or cancel flights, let alone whether his safari company is willing to reimburse what at this stage may well be a payment for ALL daily rates - plus sundries such as tax and dipping fees (not to speak of trophy fees prepaid).

So although I don't want to get into a discussion about morals here, I would like to point out, it is an awful lot easier to take the moral high position when you are snugly positioned behind your computer, without a cent involved in what has the potential of a total disaster. So for those who are sure they would know exactly the correct path, should it be their 10-20-30K$ in the pot, do go on proving your moral superiority. I'm pretty sure Kensco might ignore you anyway.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Nice people you seem to be dealing with Kensco.

P.S. If it is indeed such that Matetsi 2 has been reauctioned, and Ganyana is normally a good source of information, then rest assured the previous management, with whom Kensco had booked his hunt, will hardly be enthusiastic about this development. So it seems slightly out of place to point your finger at Kensco for having dealt with unsavoury partners. In fact, it would seem that a bit of empathy with a fellow hunter in a tight spot might have been a more appropriate reaction. Or what??

Whatever! The hunt is on.

While I will be looking at Mat-2, I will be hunting Mat-5 and Woodlands. The e-mail today says plenty of buffalo, and sable are to be found. (Heads-up Jerry.)

I guess being as old as I am and cynical to boot, I choose not to look at small snapshots in time that just suit my purpose.

I get more crap for being in the oil industry than for being a hunter. Everyone wants to take the "moral high ground" and tell me how many wars have been fought, and millions killed for oil. When I remind them that more millions have been killed in the name of religion, they suddenly get thirsty and need to go get a drink, or they see a friend walk into the room. It's all bullshit. If someone walked up to most of the outfitters represented here, and told them they could have exclusive rights to the Mat-2, they would fall all over themselves trying to get to the front of the line.

Fair enough mho and Kensco, I certainly wasn't pointing a finger at Kensco, but rather the outfitter in question.

However I still disagree with hunting on stolen land. Matetsi 2 and 5 are both great areas, I know them well, hunt there.

Larry Cummings family spent generations and literally lifeblood on Woodlands, it is not right that unsavoury political thugs and their panderers benefit.

Enjoy your hunt in Matetsi Kensco it is one of the best safari areas in Africa.

And keep pumping the old black stuff out for all of us, we need it.

Kensco - When will you be hunting Matetsi 2 & 5? I will be in Matetsi 5 from Sept 16 through Oct 1st.

John

In the context of your reply you hunted on Woodlands no less than 10 times, seems you just photo'd on the property. Either way you have supported and condoned the stealing of that property from the Cummings family.

What information do you want to keep quiet? They beat the workers, Larrys wife lost a baby and hunters who don't give a shit are hunting and taking photo safaris there.

Is Larry being payed for for your visit to the property. Why do you think the buffalo and the game are disapearing? Could the place be overhunted?

If you hunted, photo'd, before the take over then state that fact and if you don't support hunting, photoing, on confiscated lands stand up and be counted.

Next time you are in the Falls stop in and see the Cumming's.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Larry Cummings family spent generations and literally lifeblood on Woodlands, it is not right that unsavoury political thugs and their panderers benefit.

Could not agree more. I'm sure Kensco did not plan it this way, either. But point about the Cummings (and thousands of other displaced Zimbabweans) well taken.

- mike

The SADC ruling out of Namibia clearly states that the government of Zimbabwe acted illegally in the takeover of three out of the 78 farms. One of these farms is Woodlands Estates. This ruling should make it very clear that when hunting or going on safari on this property, you are doing so on illegally confiscated land.

For those of you that, “Yes, I have been there on no less than 10 safari's.
Yes, the land was reappropriated (stolen) from the Cummings family. etc. etc. etc. etc.â€, ask the US State department or the USFWS if you have problems!

Kensco, this is a curious development that you have been told that Unit 2 will not be used for the hunt. I agree with Ganyana, that there may be more explanations than you have been told. Just looking at the unit and all the game it is hard to make a case to go elsewhere.

As you may know, back in September the seasonal fires swept through all of the Matetsi, as well as parts of Hwange National Park and Botswana. This bothered the elephants, so they took off for a couple months (to Hwange and Botswana). The rest of the game stayed and thrived well on all the new grass that has come up after the fires. My hunt in Unit 3 in October and November showed that the game population is huge. For instance I saw thousands of buffalo crossing back and forth between unit 2 and unit 3. I know unit 3 has big populations of sable and other plains game.

No doubt the area you will hunt will be quite hot and humid due to seasonal rains coming in now. Good luck on the safari, and come back and let us know "the rest of the story" about the reasoning behind the switch in hunting location.

quote:

If you look back a little further we stole most of the Southwest, including Texas from the Mexicans, who stole most of it from the indians. Hope you don't go there, buy anything from there, etc., etc.

What crock of Bravo Sierra....Learn your history! Texasd was WON from Mexico, largewly due to the fact that Santa Ana couldn't keep his pants up!!!

Won - fair and square!!!

JW