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| What bullets were used? At high velocity, a soft will tend to have more shallow penetration than at low velocity because the expansion occurs sooner at high velocity. Generally the opposite would be true of a solid. |
| | | Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002 | 
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| 500grain
The bullets were 400 gr Woodleigh solids and I can't remember, but I believe 55 gr of 5744 powder |
| | | Posts: 263 | Location: New York | Registered: 21 February 2002 |
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| Hmmmm, 400 gr. solid @ 2,000 fps, that sounds so familar...where have I heard that before in relation to greater penetration, ultimate DGR??? Nah, couldn't be the 'ole reliable 45-70...  |
| | | Posts: 180 | Location: Mt. Vernon,Ohio, USA | Registered: 14 February 2004 |
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| And again, the 400gr .458" bullet is lacking in sectional density as compared to the 400gr .416" bullet. But, let's don't start the whole .45-70 thing again in this thread.
-Bob F. |
| | | Posts: 3485 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 22 February 2001 |
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| I guess "45-70" and humor don't go together...sorta like PETA and cull hunting. |
| | | Posts: 180 | Location: Mt. Vernon,Ohio, USA | Registered: 14 February 2004 |
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| RHS, I'm sorry. I didn't get your intent.  I'll try to lighten up.  -Bob F. |
| | | Posts: 3485 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 22 February 2001 |
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| Quote:
And again, the 400gr .458" bullet is lacking in sectional density as compared to the 400gr .416" bullet. But, let's don't start the whole .45-70 thing again in this thread.
-Bob F.
Bob, S.D. theories aside, the gentleman does seem to be "reporting" the same low velocity penetration experiences "reported" by "others" using "other" calibers, albeit without the same scoffing and ridicule the "others" recieved. I would not like to believe this was due to any caliber or action biases, but....
One cant help but draw certain conclusions given the above observations.
DPM, congratulations to your wife and I hope you enjoyed your trip/hunt. |
| | | Posts: 44 | Location: Hartsel, CO | Registered: 19 February 2004 |
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| Thanks We had a great hunt. My wife took 2 giraffe, and I shot a Kudu , 3 impala, and a nice tom leopard. It's sad to see Zim in such a mess. I hope they get out of this mess before it's too late |
| | | Posts: 263 | Location: New York | Registered: 21 February 2002 |
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| Quote:
I guess it passed because its not safe to get 2000 FPS with a 45-70 and a 400 gr. bullet, if possible at all.....1700 FPS is more realistic on my chronograph...but one has grown to expect the 45-70 spin on these pages...why do I reply  
Ray, I am sorry to hear that you are having trouble reaching reaching 2000fps with your .458 Short Magnum. Here are some published loadings that are well within safe pressures for Marlins. If you need any more PM me and I will be happy to pass on info. I am personally achieving 2000fps with 48gr IMR 4198 and 405 hardcast bullets which are well known to go shoulder to shoulder on Bison.
H4198 50.5gr/2002fps/39,400cup/COL 2.54/ 400gr Speer jfp (published by Hogdon)
IMR4198 47gr/1932fps/36,600cup/col 2.68/420gr Lyman cast (published by Lyman)
As you can see the IMR loading is too long but also has 420gr bullet. I substituted a 405gr and 48gr powder and seated to 2.57 COL with no cycling problems in a Marlin and there is still more room for powder. 2100fps is not unrealistic for 4,000 fpe. |
| | | Posts: 44 | Location: Hartsel, CO | Registered: 19 February 2004 |
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| Quote:
"Bob, S.D. theories aside, the gentleman does seem to be "reporting" the same low velocity penetration experiences "reported" by "others" using "other" calibers, albeit without the same scoffing and ridicule the "others" recieved. I would not like to believe this was due to any caliber or action biases, but.... One cant help but draw certain conclusions given the above observations."
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| | | Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002 |
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| Quote:
Quote:
"Bob, S.D. theories aside, the gentleman does seem to be "reporting" the same low velocity penetration experiences "reported" by "others" using "other" calibers, albeit without the same scoffing and ridicule the "others" recieved. I would not like to believe this was due to any caliber or action biases, but.... One cant help but draw certain conclusions given the above observations."
500,
I apologize but I do not recognize the photograph so I am unable to understand the reference.
DPM,
A leopard skin, now that is something. Will you keep the hide and have it tanned or mount the animal? |
| | | Posts: 44 | Location: Hartsel, CO | Registered: 19 February 2004 |
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| It amazes me that some folks think a 400 gr. bullet from a 45 cal. or 50 cal. is the same as a 400 gr. bullet from a 40 caliber...the word Sectional Density to them is a term that has no meaning what so ever and they call it theory...
sectional density is the most important aspect of a dangerous game bullet, it makes for penitration, that's not so awfully hard to understand, but apparantly it has litte meaning to some...
Example a 300 gr, 45-70 bullet at 1800 FPS does not even start to compare to a 300 gr. bullet from a 9.3x62 for instance at the same velocity...
And I repeat if you are driving a 400 gr. bullet or a 405 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS, your making a bit mistake, unless you are shooting a Ruger No.1 single shot or a bolt action rifle chambered in that caliber...read your own reloading books. |
| | | Posts: 42228 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000 |
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| Quote:
And I repeat if you are driving a 400 gr. bullet or a 405 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS, your making a bit mistake, unless you are shooting a Ruger No.1 single shot or a bolt action rifle chambered in that caliber...read your own reloading books.
Ray, while I do respect your experience and knowledge, you are very wrong about the 2000fps. I quoted you from published data from major manufacturers and gave you the source.There are some manuals that only give 34,000psi/cup for the Marlin. They are simply put, wrong. The 1895 Marlin .45-70 is rated at 43,000psi/cup just like the 1895 .444. Hornady states this in thier forward for the .45-70. The loads I posted earlier are well under those pressures and there are those who load even past 43,000.I have used my own loading that is 2100 fps with no extraction, cycling, or case head expansion problems, just a sore shoulder as it is 4,000fpe.
I have read my manuals well and studied this thouroughly and would be happy to discuss it some more either by PM, e-mail, or phone.
If you want to go chapter and verse I am up for it. I do appreciate the information you share here at the AR forums but before you tell me to read my manuals perhaps you need to do a little more reading youself. |
| | | Posts: 44 | Location: Hartsel, CO | Registered: 19 February 2004 |
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| There is something I do not understand about the 45-70. If lower velocity equals greater penetration then why load the 45-70 hot? Why not load it light for lower velocity and even greater penetration? Randy Garrett is prescribing 1550 fps, so why worry about 2000 fps? |
| | | Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002 |
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| 40 caliber 400 grain bullet at 2000 FPS. Sounds like a 450-400 or 404 Jeffery. Where's the missing 100 to 150 FPS? Given the individual differences in guns, I wouldn't be suprised if many of these old warriors only made 2000 FPS. In the real world 100 FPS doesn't mean much. A properly constructed 40 Caliber 400 grain bullet at 2000 FPS is suitable for any animal on this earth.
Hot 45-70's. I have some experience. Ruger #1 loaded to the max, it would bury any lever gun for velocity. Lethal on both ends. Kicked so hard it knocked my eyes out of focus. Folks, this is an intelligence test, stop shooting this sucker while your have brains enough to quit. My current 45-70 is a Chapuis double regulated to shoot Elmer Keith's load. 53 grains of 3031, 400 grain bullet at a nominal 1800 FPS. Chronographed in my gun at 1725 FPS, close enough. Right/left 3/4" at 50 yards; 1 1/4' at 100 yards, close enough indeed. Deer, elk, and moose within 200 yards, yes. Dangerous game, no.
Dave |
| | | Posts: 2086 | Location: Seattle Washington, USA | Registered: 19 January 2004 |
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| I had the same observation with 235gr 375 bullets at 2300....zipped through everything unless they hit a major bone and expanded. Blue Wildebeest stem to stern for example. Now a giraffe is known for tough skin, so your experience is impressive. Remember though, lungs are mostly air. I think the answer is anything that expands has half the penetration of a solid or hard monometal bullet.
I would have used a tough soft like a Woodleigh on Giraffe though. |
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| DMP is that 55 gr load of XMP a full case load? Sounds like a nice white tail and practice round. How did you come to put that load together? "D" |
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| Quote:
There is something I do not understand about the 45-70. If lower velocity equals greater penetration then why load the 45-70 hot? Why not load it light for lower velocity and even greater penetration? Randy Garrett is prescribing 1550 fps, so why worry about 2000 fps?
Yes, Randy Garret has decided to keep pressures at 35,000 which gives 1850fps for a 420gr bullet. The one you mentioned is a 540gr bullet. I believe Garret did this because he is selling ammunition commercially and because of his own penetration tests. We all know that when handloading things are different.
As to why I loaded so hot it is a matter of experimentation for extended downrange energy, but with the poor ballistic coeffiscient of a wide flat nosed bullet and 18.5in barrell I dont expect too much. I have settled on a 1800fps load for elk and black bear this year and expect ranges at 100-150yds.
And you are right, many penetration tests by people other than Garrett have shown that at 100yds penetration decreases as muzzle velocity increases past 1800fps. It is strange and there are a couple theories. |
| | | Posts: 44 | Location: Hartsel, CO | Registered: 19 February 2004 |
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| Quote:
40 caliber 400 grain bullet at 2000 FPS. Sounds like a 450-400 or 404 Jeffery. Where's the missing 100 to 150 FPS? Given the individual differences in guns, I wouldn't be suprised if many of these old warriors only made 2000 FPS. In the real world 100 FPS doesn't mean much. A properly constructed 40 Caliber 400 grain bullet at 2000 FPS is suitable for any animal on this earth.
Hot 45-70's. I have some experience. Ruger #1 loaded to the max, it would bury any lever gun for velocity. Lethal on both ends. Kicked so hard it knocked my eyes out of focus. Folks, this is an intelligence test, stop shooting this sucker while your have brains enough to quit. My current 45-70 is a Chapuis double regulated to shoot Elmer Keith's load. 53 grains of 3031, 400 grain bullet at a nominal 1800 FPS. Chronographed in my gun at 1725 FPS, close enough. Right/left 3/4" at 50 yards; 1 1/4' at 100 yards, close enough indeed. Deer, elk, and moose within 200 yards, yes. Dangerous game, no.
Dave
That double sounds like a nice gun. |
| | | Posts: 44 | Location: Hartsel, CO | Registered: 19 February 2004 |
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| Soreshoulder,
I don't think that we are that far apart in our thinking, its just that my books show the 2000FPS marked for the Ruger N0.1 only, so I passed that on in the event that you may have overlooked the astriks...
According to my chronograph, I have not been able to get 2000 FPS without a large increase jump in velocity (a spike) which tells me I am a bit high on the pressure and I suspect it will result in short case life and perhaps the constant pounding will develope head space or shake the gun apart in time....and a little mistake could create a minor disaster...It is an over max load IMO for a lever gun.
Thats just my opine and I have no say in how you load your gun, thats your business...I was just making a point for the sake of conversation..
I had a 458 Lott that I shot at 2500 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet, and it was fine with new brass for a shot or two, but not something I settled on for a daily diet, rather I settled on 2300 FPS for that...same with a 45-70, smart money drops back to about 1600 or so IMO...I notice that you also have chosen that route..good thinking IMO... |
| | | Posts: 42228 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000 |
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| The reason Garrett gets weird results from his penetration tests is because he uses wet newspaper, which has been thoroughly debunked as a test medium. In wet newspaper, higher velocity bullets tend to build up a wad of paper in front of them due to the shock wave, causing them to have shallower penetration. But in game with solids, just the opposite is the case. |
| | | Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002 |
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| Quote:
Soreshoulder,
I don't think that we are that far apart in our thinking, its just that my books show the 2000FPS marked for the Ruger N0.1 only, so I passed that on in the event that you may have overlooked the astriks...
According to my chronograph, I have not been able to get 2000 FPS without a large increase jump in velocity (a spike) which tells me I am a bit high on the pressure and I suspect it will result in short case life and perhaps the constant pounding will develope head space or shake the gun apart in time....and a little mistake could create a minor disaster...It is an over max load IMO for a lever gun.
Thats just my opine and I have no say in how you load your gun, thats your business...I was just making a point for the sake of conversation..
I had a 458 Lott that I shot at 2500 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet, and it was fine with new brass for a shot or two, but not something I settled on for a daily diet, rather I settled on 2300 FPS for that...same with a 45-70, smart money drops back to about 1600 or so IMO...I notice that you also have chosen that route..good thinking IMO...
Ray,
it is a strange thing if you look through the reloading manuals how far apart they differ on what pressure for what gun. My interpretation of this through in depth research indicates the cause being the fact that this is an old chambering originally using black powder and therefore has been offered in such a variety of action strengths that manufacturers of guns, bullets and powder have had to differentiate, classify, and sort loading charts for action strength.
After a thourough research I made the discovery that the action strength of a Marlin can be safely rated at the 43,000cup/psi level. One of the loadings I posted at 2,000fps is a Hogden load at 36,6000psi and is under the heading Marlin 1895 actions.
The recoil for this load is not near as heavy as a loading for 2100fps, but remember I am using a 7lb gun with a 18.5" barrel, no porting, and straight stock. There are definately things that could be done to help with that.
You and another here are very correct about the recoil this delivers. Even for someone not recoil timid they will get your attention and I read a story about a gentleman who fired an enourmous amount (100 rounds?) of 2000+fps rounds from a BENCH and needed multiple root canals, jaw nerve repair, and had heart palpitations days after. It is also common among CAS long distance target shooters who use the softer black powder loadings to have detached retinas.
I have also heard of cracked stocks and magazine tubes shooting loose so I certainly agree on the damage caused by continued pounding. As I said I was merely experimenting within guidelines that I considered safe after doing a lot of carefull research and understanding that I was probably not going to get the best of accuracy available. I am also one of those people that has to try anyway.
The overall point being that it is easy to support 2,000fps for a Marlin from published information by major component manufacturers, but you have to wade through everything taking notes and verifying, and that there are strange characteristics of the .45-70 that in actual field testing seem to defy rules of penetration and balistics such as ballistic coeffiscient AND sectional density.
Not trying to convert anybody or suggest anyone else should think of this as a DG cartridge, just discussing the findings of DPM's original post and sharing information. |
| | | Posts: 44 | Location: Hartsel, CO | Registered: 19 February 2004 |
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| Soreshoulder, Well you have enlightened me, and you have certainly done your homework...and I have not tried to push the string with the 45-70 but considering some of my loads in an old 45-90 I suspect you can do what you say, that I never doubted, but at what ends.. I sometimes wonder about the feasibility of doing so, but when one lives in a glass house he can't throw a lot of rocks, and I am as guilty as you of working on the hot end of the reloading bench, then backing off a grain or two and that seems to be your approach also... Unfortunatly as reloaders, we can't test all our loads, as say Whites laboratories can do, so we go by the ole tried and true signs of pressure that are attacked on this and other boards quite often wherein none of these pressure signs are valid I am told, however I am of the opinnion that when you take them all into consideration they work quit well, so I let the paper tigers complain and have never blown anyhting but an ocassional primer and a bit of fire out the hole! At any rate thinks for the information, your case was well stated IMO.... |
| | | Posts: 42228 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000 |
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| Nice thread and discussion! I especially appreciate the tone of the whole thing. I have a 45-70 in a Ruger #1 and the recoil really is brutal at around 1800fps. 15-1600 is about what I can stand from that rifle! Now I also have a CZ in 416 Rigby and a Krieghoff 500/416 double both of which I shoot at around 23-2400 fps. with (seemingly) more comfort. Few seem to have commented on the use of a solid for giraffe! My own preference would have been for a good soft point. Given the fact that solids seem to tend to go through Cape Buffalo, and given the risk of potentially wounding another animal standing behind the giraffe I would have thought this was an iffy practice. Not slamming here, just asking. My own recent experience on plains game is that even Nosler Partitions tend to go right through.
Peter. |
| | | Posts: 10515 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004 |
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| Soreshoulder
You mention that you are shooting a wide flat nose bullet in your 45-70. I believe the hard cast bullets with a oversized meplat are the reason for for the outsized performance of the 45-70. I think we are comparing apples and oranges when we compare these 45-70 bullets with traditional round nose solids. The pressure wave created by the flat nose displaces the tissue ahead of the bullet. This is why these bullets penetrate further than their sectional density would indicate. Also, this pressure wave creates a larger wound channel.
I'm going to go out on a limb here. Cast a 45 caliber 500 grain LBT WFN from linotype or harder and it will outperform any conventional round noseed solid made. An added benefit is you should be able to get a little more velocity than with jacketed bullets.
Dave |
| | | Posts: 2086 | Location: Seattle Washington, USA | Registered: 19 January 2004 |
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| Ray, all I can say is I will humbly take that as a compliment.
No pride, thanks for the shock wave information.
I will now go back to lurking which is about all I'm qualified for here. |
| | | Posts: 44 | Location: Hartsel, CO | Registered: 19 February 2004 |
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| Soreshoulder
I assumed from your reference to a wide flat nose bullet that you are shooting bullets cast from LBT molds. If your have't got it, I would suggest the book "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets" by Veral Smith Of Lead Bullet Technology. One of the best books on cast bullets I have read. His tested information on bullet killing power should be of interest to all hunters, no matter their choice of bullets.
As to lurking and your qualifications, you are as qualified as anyone to post here. I think most folks here are interested in expanding their knowledge, and all reasonable, civil posts are welcome.
Dave |
| | | Posts: 2086 | Location: Seattle Washington, USA | Registered: 19 January 2004 |
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