I need your advice.

I just completed my PH course in South Africa.

Now for the everlasting question or debate. What is the best back up rifle for a PH in Africa on big game as well as dangerous game?

As a PH I have some control of the set up of the client for a good shot but no control of the final shot placement.

My opinion is "use enough gun" but what gun?

I will appreciate the thoughts of all the experienced PH's here as well as guys that hunted Africa.

Gerhard

Gerard,

Congratulations on passing - where did you qualify?

I've used a variety of of charge stoppers over the years but my current one and the only one I've ever been completely satisfied with is my .500 Jeffery which I had built by Sabi Rifles in Nelspruit...... Last year I used it stop 3 charges at very close range and everything dropped like a sack of the proverbial......

I think there's pictures of all 3 animals on the Tanzania page of my website........ Guess I'll have to check as I can't remember. Maybe I'm suffering from "oldtimers disease"

Congrats and welcome aboard...I assume you have a plains rifle..But as a stopper I would start at a 458 Lott and go up but the 500 jeffery is a stopper and crusher..

It comes down to money!!!

Mike

Thank you.

I did my course at the Johan Calitz and Kobus Schoeman academy. I had a great time and opened a wonderful new world.

I was also of the opinion that the 500 Jeffery would be the way to go but I am always open for suggestions as a Jeffery has to be custom build and that needs a lot of money.

At this stage I have a 303 Brit as a plains game rifle but will probably upgrade later to a 338 Win Mag.

Gerhard

Glad to hear you enjoyed the course...... Guess I should have also asked where you're qualified to operate?

Finding a reasonably priced .500 Jeffery shouldn't be too much of a problem at the moment....... In fact, I think I saw one on the shelves of Sabi Rifles the other day..... I'm going down there tomorrow so will take a look and if I see anything I'll let you know......

Shakari,

I send you a PM.

Gerhard

I hunted ion Moz. in 04 & there were several PHs in camp. Rifles on hand were a .416rm, .470NE, (2) .458wm. The young PH I had was using a borrowed .458wm & we talked quite a bit about his upcoming rifle purchase. The rules in RSA are getting to be very limiting on how many rifles one can own. I suggested to him that a .458Lott, probably a CZ, properly set up would allow him to back up on just about anything that walks using a 500gr bullet @ 2300fps. It also makes a good bushvelde rifle w/ 450gr bullets @ 2400-2500fps. The up side is you can shoot .458wm ammo in a pinch. Congrats on passsing your course, now it's on to DG apprenticeship.

Hallo Gerhard,

Welcome in the PH fraternity. It’s not much of a job, but it’s a hell of a life! It is somewhat like farming in the sense that it is usually most profitable when you don’t need the income to make a living from.

If you’ve just qualified, I assume that you won’t be doing much dangerous game hunting as the primary PH. So you won’t need a mega thumper right away.

My suggestion is that you spare your .303 for private occasions, and acquire a .375 H&H as a back up gun for plains game. Use this .375 for everything until you move into the dangerous game hunting market.

Then you get yourself one of the .416’s (or a .404 if you’re a gentleman with style and a good upbringing). Use this rifle for everything until you start spending most of your PH time hunting elephant and/or buff. Then is the time to start looking for something in a .45 or larger.

Happy hunting.

Hi Jakkals

Get yourself a handy small .22 revolver . A client that wound an animal after you help him get into a perfect shooting position deserve to be shot in the knee, this is to ensure that you can outrun him when the animal charge

On a seriuos note I vote for a 416 Rigby, you will have to reload to be able to affort the ammo, but reloading is half the shooting fun. Start with a 375 for PG (can also be used for DG if you are in a pinch)and get yourself a 416 later when you start doing DG fulltime. While you do DG training the outfitter will normally have a DG rifle that you can use, although you will not be shooting unless things realy get out of hand.

Wimpie

Jakkals,

I've got a good friend in Pochestrom. His name is Jaco Marais. He is a huge .500 jefery fan and has killed 6 or seven buffalo with his.

He is also one of the nicest guys you'd want to meet. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to let you shoot his.

You can reach him at jacojjh@advantage.co.za

Tell him that you got his info from:

Greg Allyn

Cheers and good luck in your new career!

Jakkals,
If your are worried about reacoil of a large bore rifle, try this. Find a rifle of you choice and caliber, and get a heavy bullet mould for it. This will do a few things for you,
1. You will be able to reload the load of your choice.
2. You can load it a slow or stiff as you can handle.
3. It won't break your piggy bank to shoot 40 or 50 rounds a week.
4. You can work to the recoil of the heavy bone brakers, and not kill yourself with recoil.
5. It breathes new life into the term, "SHOOT THAT CANNON", and you will get good with it.

This is just food for thought, jebb45

.

ALF- Sounds like really good advise. Better than some of these arm chair experts who think that the bigger the better.

Excellent advice, Alf.

Brad

Alf,

I sincerely hope you don't mind me disagreeing with you..... I appreciate it's gonna be more difficult for him to get a permit for another rifle, but if he forms a (hunting) company and buys the rifle in the name of the company then the CFR should authorise it's purchase without any problems..... it'll probably take a few months but that's all.

Ammo isn't a problem at all over here. Sabi rifles, Ken Stewart and GS Custom all offer the reloading componants and Powder Keg offer full rounds....and all of those companies hold everything in stock.

As far as I'm aware, the 200 rounds limitation only applies to temporary imports and even if it applies to residents, (IMO) 200 rounds is more than enough for a PH. Even when I go to Tanzania, I only take 100 rounds for the season.

As to shooting the rifle, surely so much depends on stock design and felt recoil it's all relative. My .500 has a good stock design and a mercury recoil arrestor so I don't notice the recoil much........ could I shoot it repeatedly in a charge situation? - I don't really know, but I can certainly get a second shot ready to go very quickly but in all honesty, I've never had need for a second shot.

One could also argue that one doesn't get the chance of repeated shots in a charge situation..... From my experience if you get time for 2 shots you're lucky.....

I'll also add that I've had my fair share of charges with various calibres and the .500 is considerably more effective at stopping charges dead at close range than any other calibre I've ever used.....

I appreciate you have considerably more knowledge and experience of firearms than I do, but that's my opinion based on my experiences.....

Pegleg,

not everyone who advocates large calibres is just an armchair expert.......

On my 2nd safari my PH carried a .416 Remington but never had to fire it but a friend of his who was also a PH stopped in camp and he was carrying a 500 similar to the one Shakari carries. It was very nicely done and I ask him how it shot and he offered me a chance to shoot it. I quickly declined (I'm a recoil wimp) but ask him how powerful it was compared to my .375 and the PH's .416. We made a quick trip to the camp rifle range where we picked out two similar trees about 30 yards away. I shot one with my .375 and he shot the other with his 500. As I suspected the recoil was substanital and while my tree had a nice hole in it with some splinters etc sticking out the exit hole, the tree he shot looked like someone tied some C4 around it. Very, very impressive indeed.

A PH who can shoot a .500 quickly and accurately (and he could) would certainly inspire confidence in a client.

Thank you for all the info I apreciate it.

Gerhard

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
(IMO) 200 rounds is more than enough for a PH. Even when I go to Tanzania, I only take 100 rounds for the season.

I have never met or even heard of a PH who ever shot 100 rounds in a season while backing up clients. What's up with all the ammo?

Hell, I don't use it all - I just take it with me in case I need it...... I actually prefer not to shoot it at all on safari as I like the client to do all the shooting - but sometimes it's necessary and sometimes (actually quite often) the client or the odd member of staff asks for a shot or two at the range....

I usually take 50 solids, 25 SP & 25 PSP so all possible circumstances are covered. This also allows me enough for the odd animal I might get to hunt for myself between the going of one client and the arrival of another....... I usually bring home the vast majority unfired, but I'd look bloody silly if I ended up without enough ammo for some reason so I prefer to take a lot more than I need.

Jakkals
I would stick to Riaan's advice, and buy a .375 as you would not do serious DG hunts for at least 3 years. If you qualify for and start to do DG hunts, skip the .416/.404 phase, and upgrade dirctly to .458 and bigger. A good choice here, is a .458 Lott, as someone has already mentioned.

I don't think it's a matter of when you start DG hunting, it's a matter of will you ever be hunting on an area that has DG on it - OR if any other areas in the vicinity have DG that may possibly break through a fence or two..... These things occasionally happen, even in RSA.

(IMHO) a PH needs to be able to stop anything he might possibly encounter - not just be able to kill any animal he might be allowed to hunt under the terms of his licence and a .375 just ain't good enough.......

Much as it not my favorite cartridge the .458 (or better still.458 Lott) have much to commend. For a start, they are easy to download and very easy to shoot with cast bullets. A 450grn cast bullet is a wonderful "stopper" on wounded plainsgame that is running away. With 300 grn Impala bullets at 2700fps it will reach out and touch things.

Actually between cast bulltets, impala Mono's Barnes X (or GS custom) and regular 500grn FMJ and Softs you can cover most bases, and most shots out to 300m with a Lott - provided it has a QD scope.

I see alot of guys start with a .375, and then have to go through the handstand of getting another license when they upgrade - and loading a .375 with cast bullets for plainsgame or practice seldom works as advertised. I have got a few to shoot cast bullets well but generally accuracy is minute of barn door at best.

If you can handle the recoil a .500 is superb, but not as versitile as a Lott. Mind you if you can aford one, you can probably afford to get ken stuart to make you up some light anti kudu bullets.

If the recoil isn't an issue and you are prepared to live with the long pull of a magnum length action- go big or go home.

Many a parks officer here in Zim - notably Ken Worsley and Glenn Tathan used their .458's ( Standard F.N.'s) to shoot everything from ration impala to problem elephants. Remember the old warning- beware the man with only one rifle- he is likly to know how to use it.

Ganyana,

Funny you should say that about Ken Stewart.... he did that very thing for me. I can't remember the cost, but it was very reasonable.......

Why is everyone so negative of obtaining another licence in SA? It can be done, it will only take more trouble than it used to. On the .375, I believe it is all the non DG Ph will ever need, even those that hunt on concessions with buff on it. It can stop a charge with good shot placement, which will be more likely as that PH would have been carrying and using it a lot. Also, when you do decide to upgrade, you have a very good "loaner" rifle for clients in the .375

.

Yes, a few. I atmit there is difficulty, but it will not be impossible.

.

It is like a credit card, same plastic, not like the older ones. It has a photo on (of the owner), details of the weapon, and owner. It also states what its intended use are, and in the place of the fake thumbprint, something like a 3D barcode, if you understand what I mean. There was a period about 2 months ago, that the SAPS issued a lot at the same time, don't know waht is happening now...

I am one of the armchair types. Never been a PH and it doesn't look likely that I will be one. I have a bit of common sense and am very interested in cartridges. Here is my opinion and it will be worth what it cost you.

If you can afford it you will be best served with a double. It is the very best way to get the first two rounds off in as short a time possible. If you are talking about a stopping rifle in the thick jesse I think the first two rounds quick is what you need. If a double, you can find ammo for the 470 most easily. Resale on a 470 is better than any other since the ease of finding ammo. I think the 470 is enough gun. Admittedly the 500 hits a bit harder but as stated above it hits harder on both ends. Trade off that only you can resolve. The only down side to a double is that of cost.

If you can't afford a double then the logical bolt gun is a 458 Lott. Plenty of power. Load it up or down. Brass is cheaper than most of the Nitro's. Bullet availability is better than almost any big bore.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
KARL:

What does the actual licence look like ? Is it the same as the old plastic credit card type? and what does it have on it, it there a photograph or that fake thumb print?

I'm asking because in all truth though the SAPS claim they have issued X number of these things no one I have spoken to actually has seen one in person.

I got rid of a semi auto .22, a friend took it from me and got a lisence for it. So I can say that the SAPS is issueing leagal liseces.

I applied for a new licence in March 2005. I phoned the new number for queries in Pretoria last week to be told the application was only received in Pretoria at the beginning of February 2006 - 11 months to travel 25 km……… .

I was told they are not approving new licences at the moment only doing the re-licensing of licences which are about to expire.

So Jakkals, go with something that will serve you well for DG and PG as I can't see the situation improving until all the licensing has been redone and I don’t think it will be before 2010 with extensions etc

Jakkals,

In my opinion when hunting plains game you shouldnt really feel the need to have a backup rifle and your most important tool and this is for both plains game as well as dangerous game, is a good pair of Binoculars. This is where I would invest and not spare the penny's on.

However I am guessing that you do intend hunting dangerous game in the future and therefore I would suggest a reliable and affordable 458wm and up as a starter. I say affordable as I am not sure what your financial status is. If funds are not a problem......a Double.