Depending on what's on the license:

If I'm going low brow bolt trash {8^) a 300 win mag & a 375 or a 375 & a 458 Lott.

If I'm going high brow a a pair of doubles in 9.3x74 & a 450/400. The 9.3 also has a set of 30.06 barrels for extra fun.

Is Boddington still a member? As his contribution to this post would be invaluable?

As a PH I would recommend 300WM which has to be one of the most versitile cartridges in Africa and then one of the heavy calibres for dangerous game. Whatever you are comfortable with?

Agree with fairgame. I've found the .300WM to be extremely well suited for Africa and popular with residents, so ammo is never a problem. Mine has taken everything from Duiker to Eland. The second rifle should be larger and caliber dependent upon any DG on license or common in the area to be hunted. A .416Rem or Rigby can handle DG and PG alike. It will also work on Ele but if they were specifically on license, I'd opt for my .458Lott.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LionHunter:
Agree with fairgame. I've found the .300WM to be extremely well suited for Africa and popular with residents, so ammo is never a problem. Mine has taken everything from Duiker to Eland. The second rifle should be larger and caliber dependent upon any DG on license or common in the area to be hunted. A .416Rem or Rigby can handle DG and PG alike. It will also work on Ele but if they were specifically on license, I'd opt for my .458Lott.[/QUOT

Tend to disagree with the Lott. The .458WM is a great cartridge and often the choice of those who cull elephant.

The 300WM is in a class of its own and must be considered a clasic.

fairgame,

The reason the .458WM was used for culling operations was that it was the only large bore rifle commercially manufactured with commercial ammunition readily available. The rifles and ammunition were initially made in the USA were primarily available from Winchester and later from BRNO and others. This lasted for some 20+ years while the .458Lott was only available as a custom rifle requiring custom ammo. Game departments really had no choice if they wanted a large bore bolt gun for their operations; it had to be the .458WM.

Everyone knows about the powder compaction problems and the failures of the original loading and how the Lott was developed as an answer to what the original WM was supposed to be able to deliver. The more current development within the past 10 years, of proprietary powders and commercial loads using premium bullets has brought the WM up to the original standards. But for more than 20 years the Lott was clearly superior and was the choice of many PHs across Africa as their choice for a backup rifle prior to the resurection of the Double Rifle.

At least that's how I remember things. And I still prefer my Lott with it's straight case and larger capacity.

Cheers

Right now the only 2 rifles i have that would work well in Africa are my .375RUM and my 30-378Wby Mag. I might could use my Winchester 1885 in 50-90 on some stuff.

.300WM and a .375 H&H

470 Nitro and 375 H&H for elephant, buffalo, and plainsgame this year.

Now I have to sort out a reason to bring a 450-400.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
fairgame,

The reason the .458WM was used for culling operations was that it was the only large bore rifle commercially manufactured with commercial ammunition readily available. The rifles and ammunition were initially made in the USA were primarily available from Winchester and later from BRNO and others. This lasted for some 20+ years while the .458Lott was only available as a custom rifle requiring custom ammo. Game departments really had no choice if they wanted a large bore bolt gun for their operations; it had to be the .458WM.

Everyone knows about the powder compaction problems and the failures of the original loading and how the Lott was developed as an answer to what the original WM was supposed to be able to deliver. The more current development within the past 10 years, of proprietary powders and commercial loads using premium bullets has brought the WM up to the original standards. But for more than 20 years the Lott was clearly superior and was the choice of many PHs across Africa as their choice for a backup rifle prior to the resurection of the Double Rifle.

At least that's how I remember things. And I still prefer my Lott with it's straight case and larger capacity.

Cheers

No denying that the Lott is an excellent cartridge and I would have thought very similar ballistics to that of the .470? The advantage of the Lott is that it can still take the WM cartridge if need be.

Many PH's still carry the 458WM and Adrian Reid who was culling elephants in Zim until recently would only use the 458WM.

I carry one but will switch between this calibre and my .470 depending on the circumstance.

fairgame,

Yes, the .458Lott is a ballistic match for the 470 NE, and todays .458WM ammunition makes it a good cartridge as well. I considered the WM before buying the Lott and with todays ammo there isn't a helluva big difference ballistically, but there are other factors I feel are in the Lotts favor. You mention one in that the Lott can chamber and fire the WM ammo.

In my African safari experience I never met a PH who carried the WM but did hunt with some who carried the Lott. Today most own a DR. Just my personal experience sharing camps with perhaps 30-40 PHs over the years.

BTW, I am enjoying your stories. Well done.

The only 2 rifles I've ever used in Africa were in 5.56 and 7.62 NATO.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
fairgame,

Yes, the .458Lott is a ballistic match for the 470 NE, and todays .458WM ammunition makes it a good cartridge as well. I considered the WM before buying the Lott and with todays ammo there isn't a helluva big difference ballistically, but there are other factors I feel are in the Lotts favor. You mention one in that the Lott can chamber and fire the WM ammo.

In my African safari experience I never met a PH who carried the WM but did hunt with some who carried the Lott. Today most own a DR. Just my personal experience sharing camps with perhaps 30-40 PHs over the years.

BTW, I am enjoying your stories. Well done.

Mike,

DR's have their limitations and often a PH may need a tad more accuracy or a distance shot on wounded game. I would only reach for my DR if I felt that two quick shots were all I was going to get.

The .458WM is a common carry gun in Zambia and mine is fitted with an Aimpoint and bolt on torch for increased accuracy and for use in low light conditions.

Cheers

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
fairgame,

Yes, the .458Lott is a ballistic match for the 470 NE, and todays .458WM ammunition makes it a good cartridge as well. I considered the WM before buying the Lott and with todays ammo there isn't a helluva big difference ballistically, but there are other factors I feel are in the Lotts favor. You mention one in that the Lott can chamber and fire the WM ammo.

In my African safari experience I never met a PH who carried the WM but did hunt with some who carried the Lott. Today most own a DR. Just my personal experience sharing camps with perhaps 30-40 PHs over the years.

BTW, I am enjoying your stories. Well done.

Actually, the 458wm and the 470 are very, very close in performance. Historical nominal specs for the 470 is 500grs at 2125fps OUT OF 31" BARRELS. There are newer rifles regulated for hotter loads, like some Searcys, but vintage and most new rifles won't see nominal performance. That puts the 458wm ahead of the 470 with todays handloads, and on par with factory ammo of any vintage.

Keep in mind that a 500gr .458" solid at, say, 2100fps, has greater penetration than a similar 500gr solid at the same velocity that measures .474" diameter.

The 458 Lott, running 500's up to 2300fps, maybe a bit more, or 550's to 2150fps, far exceeds even the nominal performance of the 470.

BTW, amoungst the PH I have hunted with or shared camps or known from elephant hunting, the 458wm remains about as popular, maybe more so, as the Lott or Ackley. Most every one of those PH's that I know who does a lot of elephant hunting wishes they had a double of 450NE or better, or already has one.

JPK

Andrew & John,

Thanks for your comments. I know you both shoot the .458WM and have a good amount of experience with them, in bolt and DR respectfully.

Here's a question for you both. I will be doing another Ele hunt - tuskless - either this year or next. Have never owned a DR but am considering one for this hunt instead of my Lott. Leaning towards a 500 NE but would like your opinions on DR calibers for Ele or whether to stay with my Lott. I hear lots of talk about the 450 3.25". Hope to be up close at the moment of truth.

450NE 3 1/4", nominal ballistics = 480grs at 2150fps, out of 28" barrels. Many 26" barrels on rifles in the field, lots of rifles that come close to the nominal performance (which is about the same as today's factory 458wm ammo and below that provided by good hand loads.) THE standard by which big bore rifles are judged, the grandfather of ALL modern elephant rifles. What's not to like? Slimmer case and narrower case head than the 500 based cartridges, like the 450/500, 465/500, 470 or of course the 500, so a builder can build slimmer, lighter rifles. No fillers needed in hand loads, tons of cheap .458" bullets for practice, including cast bullets... Should shoot North Fork or GS Custom 450 FN solids well.

IMO, elephant hunting is the only hunting where a double rifle offers a true, significant advantage over a bolt, and within the range of elephant hunting the double rifle is a particular advantage for close tuskless hunting.

The power that a 458wm offers, and which a 450NE 3 1/4" or 470 share closely enough as well, is excellent for tuskless. Of the cow elephants that I failed to perfectly brain with my first shot, the overwhelming majority dropped to the shot, from out cold to down but srtuggling to rise, making the second shot to the brain or spine possible and, generally, easy.

I toy with the idea of a 500 from time to time, and I may try one. But there is no imperative. I fear greater rifle weight will be of more hinderance than the gain in power would be a benefit.

If you're thinking 500, I would try several of different weights to see what you prefer for carrying vs recoil. There generally isn't as much walking during a tuskless hunt as there is during a bull hunt, but it can be there.

If you go double, get a two trigger SxS shotgun to become accustomed to the triggers if you aren't already. A couple of sessions of fun clays shooting a month will have those triggers second nature. (Or point out a problem, for example, one of my brothers just doesn't like double trigger guns, period and has never become comfortable with them.) Loading from a shell bag is similar enough to help you become familiar with and quick reloading, if you work on being quick at the clays range. Dove shooting, or duck shooting with a bag or shell belt will help more.

A 22 of some sort with open sights not too different than express sights, or close enough that some filing will make them similar enough will hone the open sight shooting, cheaply, while having fun.

Good luck with your choice of rifle. I don't think you can go wrong with a 450, btw.

JPK

Think JPK has pretty much said it all and I am not very familiar with the .450, I was recommended the .470 by Fred Duckworth and he likes the Krieghoff because of its fast cocking action. I like the combination but now feel I could have gone a bit bigger and have heard nothing but praise for the .500

Andrew