Recently got back from Tanzania and my light rifle was a Gunwerks 300 Win. Mag. They sell it as a system with a ballistic turret scope and their ammunition. I realize their focus is on long range shooting, but that's not mine. What I want my light rifle to do is to take care of things like leopard and croc at 100 yards or under and handle medium to small antelope out to 300 yards, maybe a tad more in a bind. So I'm cranking the ranges on the scope between 100 and 300 yards, not 500 or 600.

I think the Berger bullets are designed to open up at lower velocities at longer ranges, not to hold together at closer ranges and higher velocities.

I never got a pass through with a 190 grain Berger bullet on anything bigger than a leopard. Now it did wonders on the leopard and I'd say it was nearly the perfect leopard bullet, but no pass throughs on topi, hartebeest, even warthog. The reason became obvious with the small animals. It absolutely tore apart smaller stuff like oribi, and the impala I shot for bait. Clearly, this bullet is designed for longer ranges than are normally encountered in Africa and they open open up dramatically at close range and don't penetrate on large animals.

The problem I have now is I have no confidence in these bullets for my specialized use and there aren't many 190 grain alternatives, maybe the Barnes Vor-TX LRX 190 gr. Anyone have any real world experience with that bullet? Otherwise, we're going back to the drawing board, working up a new load and cutting a new ballistic turret. I won't hunt with Bergers again. Welcome any thoughts or suggestions. Other possibilities are Trophy Bonded Bearclaws, but I don't think Federal loads those in 300 Win Mag, or Swift A Frame, but that's either 180 grain or 200 grain. Other suggestions welcome.

Why bother with a turret for 300yds or 100yds i shoot a 300 win mag with 180gr Barnes Bullets sighted in 1.5” high at 100yds dead on at 200yds 6” drop at 300yds. I use a Leupold VX-6 with a turret never use it. Great bullet used it in Botswana everything from Eland to Impala all one shot kills

You have raised a few points, which relate to me a long time ago.

That taking two rifles in different calibers for plains game and dangerous game.

I gave up on that, and use only one now.

And I do, on occasions, shoot at long distances up to 500 yards.

I never use a range turret.

On bullets, I have always used mono bullets like the original Barnes X and my own lathe turned Walterhog bullets.

Both work very well on all animals.

There is a lot of silly bullshit written about bullets, namely by Art Alpin and his LION LOAD bullets.

The main thing for a bullet is to PENETRATE.

I have used Sierra 180 grain Match Kings to shoot all sorts of animals.

never got a pass through, but all the animals died with one shot.

I had then going at 3480 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Recently got back from Tanzania and my light rifle was a Gunwerks 300 Win. Mag. They sell it as a system with a ballistic turret scope and their ammunition. I realize their focus is on long range shooting, but that's not mine. What I want my light rifle to do is to take care of things like leopard and croc at 100 yards or under and handle medium to small antelope out to 300 yards, maybe a tad more in a bind. So I'm cranking the ranges on the scope between 100 and 300 yards, not 500 or 600.

I think the Berger bullets are designed to open up at lower velocities at longer ranges, not to hold together at closer ranges and higher velocities.

I never got a pass through with a 190 grain Berger bullet on anything bigger than a leopard. Now it did wonders on the leopard and I'd say it was nearly the perfect leopard bullet, but no pass throughs on topi, hartebeest, even warthog. The reason became obvious with the small animals. It absolutely tore apart smaller stuff like oribi, and the impala I shot for bait. Clearly, this bullet is designed for longer ranges than are normally encountered in Africa and they open open up dramatically at close range and don't penetrate on large animals.

The problem I have now is I have no confidence in these bullets for my specialized use and there aren't many 190 grain alternatives, maybe the Barnes Vor-TX LRX 190 gr. Anyone have any real world experience with that bullet? Otherwise, we're going back to the drawing board, working up a new load and cutting a new ballistic turret. I won't hunt with Bergers again. Welcome any thoughts or suggestions. Other possibilities are Trophy Bonded Bearclaws, but I don't think Federal loads those in 300 Win Mag, or Swift A Frame, but that's either 180 grain or 200 grain. Other suggestions welcome.

That's the way Berger works. The bullet will penetrate a small amount and then "explode". Not designed to pass through.

You can try cutting edge bullets, Barnes or any other mono if you want full penetration.

If you are changing bullets you are starting over with the load anyway, so no need to stick with a 190 grain pill. I've used the 180 grain Barnes TSX and TTSX in the 300 on everything from a woodchuck to eland. My son shot a huge old eland in Namibia last year on a hard quartering away shot that broke the femur and came to rest under the hide on the opposite side shoulder. Only one I have ever recovered.

As suggested earlier, Barnes 180 gr TTSX sighted 1.5” high at 100. No problem at ranges you indicated as your preferred range. They’ll work on just about anything and no need for special turret either unless you like them.

I have a very close friend that is a reloading guru. He loves the Berger bullets due to accuracy.
I had him load up several in several calibers.
I used some on pronghorn - it exploded on the shoulder making the poor beast a bloody mess and did not kill quickly.
I used a 7mm RM , 190gr on a long range Marco Polo sheep and had the same experience except it took a massive effort to retrieve the sheep . It was a 700 yd shot dead on the shoulder.
Then used it on a mid-Asian ibex at 500 yds. Same result.
Recovered the animals but the bullet performance was not what you want.

I am 100% sold on TSX or TTSX or TBBC .

I like a pass through and am done experimenting with long range target bullets…..

The 180gr Barnes TTSX is the ticket for your 300 WM. I shoot it in my 300 H&H Mag. Never had one fail. Accuracy is great. Took my 2012 leopard with it with CMS in Makuti. Dead under the tree!!

I wouldn’t shoot a Berger bullet on any game for the exact reason DogCat mentions, but the fellow who does my loading loves them for the little coastal Blacktailed deer he hunts.

As others have said, a 180 TTSX will serve you very well. TTSX bullets are excellent, I shoot them in my .338 and love them. The LRX bullets may be even better as they’re the same except for a bit larger hole in the nose to expand at lower velocities. I shoot LRX’s in my .264 and they’re very good at all ranges.

Lavaca, You mentioned Bearclaws. They’re my other favorite besides Barnes, but tough to find. However, Federal ‘improved’ them and named it the trophy bonded tipped bullet. I think it’s pretty much a Bearclaw, except with a polymer tip. Great bullet!

not sure why anyone hunting shoots anything other than a TSX, quit resisting.

Berger is a good bullet for thin paper . I have had tremendous results with 180 grain swift scirocco in my 300 win mag from zebra down.

The diff in trajectory between 180 and 190 grain bullets is all BS for practical purposes.

Lavaca,

I'd never recommend Bergers for anything in Africa. They are just too frangible. I good bullet with decent BC is the the Nosler Accubond. It will open easily but give good penetration also. They often are very accurate.

Choosing anothere 190 gr bullet will not give you the same results as the BC will be drastically different from the 190 Berger. You'll need another custom turrent for the new load.

Mark

I honestly have no idea why people would use jacket and lead core bullets for hunting any more, apart from varmints.

These can have unpredictable performance, which can turn into a disaster in Africa.

I have used Sierra Match Kings bullet on a hunt in South Africa as a test.

Every animal was killed with a single shot, impressing everyone.

But, bullet performance, I know, they did kill the animal, so what is problem??

The problem is all bullets turned into bits almost as small as sand!

And there is no way I would take that chance on a hunt in Africa in a wild area.

My hunt was om farms, where I could choose my bullet placement - animals were all broadside, except one nyala which was facing us at a few yards.

Mono bullets are available from several makers, and they are very accurate.

On scopes with bullet drop compensation, they might come in handy for sheep and goat hunting with a range finder.

But I have never used one, and never will for my African hunts.

Knowing your rifles performance is your best friend.

I have never shot Berger bullets, and never will after witnessing ghastly, non fatal wounds while culling feral goats. A friend was shooting a 7mm/300, a very good shot and consistently scoring hits out to 500 + yds. Most goats, including small kids, that he shot had Bergers just explode on their flanks, making large, bloody wounds with hardly any penetration but limbs were broken. The poor animals ran around bleating in terror and pain. All these goats were only small, thin skinned, lightweight animals. After a while I couldn't stand any more and asked if he could shoot another bullet instead. He had Nosler Accubonds too and switched to shooting those. Instantly DRT kills started piling up and both of us were much happier.
Personally if I am on a serious trophy hunt Barnes TSX or TTSX is what I use.

It's been said several times in here, I guess I might as well pile on, the TSX or TTSX is the way to go for a 300 WM. I have taken one several times to Africa, used one on the ranch here in Texas, loaned it to numerous guests.

Best shot I can recall right away, was about 450 yards on a mountain zebra in Namibia. Saw them up on the mountain, rapped on the cab roof, while ranging the critters with the laser binos. Got the range, dialed the scope, which was very easy, I keep the come-ups and windage on a short strip of paper ( 100-800 yards ) taped to the left side of the stock. Literally takes more time to tell it than to do it. Had time to holler EARS to the rest of the crew in the back of the truck, and shot out.

PH was sitting next to me, watched the shot, said Mikee, that is a dead donkey, now we have to figure out how to get up there. Took us about two hours to get up to that part of the mountain. Everyone else went off after what they thought was the zebra's escape path, I headed for a yellowish tree I noticed when I shot. I was almost to the tree, when Elvis, the tracker walked up to me, and I pointed at the tree, he nodded and we started towards the tree. Hadn't gone far at all, when he saw the zebra, piled up dead, Dere, Dere, is de Donkey! 450 yards, 300 WM, Barnes 180's. Very accurate, penetrates very very well. Unlike the Bergers, and some of the other bonded bullets, seen too many of those not get through to the vitals.

I have other scopes, that have ballistic turrets, I use them too, but always have the backup drop chart available, either on a card, or taped to the stock. Some guys tape a range card inside the flip-up scope caps, I personally don't use that method, but it might be OK for you.

I have lots of Berger bullets, in many calibers.

They are great for target shooting.

Talked to Walt Berger years ago about shooting and bullets.

On targets.

We never discussed his bullets for hunting.

Never use Bergers for hunting nor Hammer Bullets. The former explodes and the latter has unpredictable performance due to poor QC, metallurgy sourcing and bullet design.

Like most here, in 300WM, I have come to love and get great on game performance with the BARNES 180gr TSX, the 175 gr LRX and the 190 gr LRX.

I learned a long time ago that bullet discussions are a never to be solved discussion. Sayin that, several years ago thinking the possibility of lead bullets being banned or restricted. I had used Nosler Partitions with no complaints. I was at SCI and picked up the Barnes DVD about their bullets. They compared objectively their bullet to Nosler and some others. Being a monometal bullet I decided to load some up and try. I only use in 300WM 180 gr TSX
or TTSX. I have shot numerous Elk and numerous African Plains game and a Leopard with that bullet and the results were devastating.
I also use them in my 375 and 270
After saying all that, I have Swift A-Frames and the Nosler's that I would have no problem using.
I made the change and if it's not broke leave it alone.
I know zero about Berger Bullets but it sounds like they're are like or are a frangible bullet on game.

I used to shoot Berger VLD’s in my 300 Win Mag locally on deer and hogs . To make a long story short, I quit using them altogether . Accuracy was fantastic. Performance on critters sucked .

TSX or LRX are the best bullets for everything at all distances.

John Barnsness seems to think highly of them.

For me, they are very consistently accurate, and if I was head or neck shot culling I would have no real complaint about using them on thin skinned game.

I realize what they are- a thinly jacketed bullet that will come apart. My personal opinion is I like deep penetration, ideally two holes.

I tend to use monometal or specifically designed controlled expansion bullets for hunting game. Heck, my local deer license costs about what a box of hunting ammo costs, so the cartridge is about the least expensive part of any hunt.

While I like the instant DRT as well as anyone, I’m more interested in reliably killing game with as little trauma as possible, both physical and psychological. A hole through the chest is the best way to reliably get that- it’s a reasonably large target and from game reactions it’s not unusually painful- a quick startled run and collapse within seconds.

Two holes generally equates with a good blood trail, so you don’t lose your game.

I’ve killed game with most types of hunting bullets. Most do a good job.

My biggest issues with soft bullets is not that when things all work they are not spectacularly effective, but the risk that if I place the shot decently, but not perfectly it will not kill the animal.

As an example, I shot a whitetail with a Nosler ballistic tip that was DRT with a rib cage shot. The ribs were blown apart and the heart and lungs were destroyed on the right side. The left lung was fine. Other than some 2-3 grain pieces, nothing of the bullet was found. Good kill, may have been a one off effect (this was a .30-06, 165 grain bullet) but I’ve since decided that other bullets are more reliable and I leave the Ballistic tips for varmint work. (And I do use some cup and core types for smaller game like deer.). Sounds exactly like the expected results with bergers.

And yes, sometimes a deep penetrating bullet has a weird wound track and they don’t do what you hope- but the limitation isn’t a part of its design.

Bergers, match kings, hornady’s match bullets all might work, and yess the 77 grain SMK is showing excellent results for Uncle Sam, but all bullet makers seem to agree that you should use a hunting bullet for hunting. The usual change is with the advent of extreme range hunting. I have ethical issues with that, so I don’t do it.

Agree. I questioned them about the Berger bullets based on what I had heard and they assured me they performed well. I'm definitely changing bullets. Not all that fond of their chosen scope either.

I've shot piles of African game with Berger VLD "hunting" bullets, no issues at all.

Like any bullet you gotta put it where it needs to go.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I used to shoot Berger VLD’s in my 300 Win Mag locally on deer and hogs . To make a long story short, I quit using them altogether . Accuracy was fantastic. Performance on critters sucked .

Exactly.
Why on God's green earth would you chance using a Berger bullet on anything tougher than a whitetail deer. There is took much anecdotal evidence that they do not kill efficiently.

There are too many good choices to get your head wrapped about Berger bullets. I seriously regret ever using them on game, let along a Marco Polo ram with $50k at stake.

As to celebrity recommendations - they are bought and paid for. I am sure the CB loves them somewhere on his long list of endorsements. I do not care one whit for ANY product recommended by someone that a) got it for free to try out, or b) gets paid to endorse things or c) is considered an influencer.

You are getting sold a product that is not fit for purspose other than punching holes in paper.

Something with a host of other products....

quote:

Originally posted by Timbavati:
TSX or LRX are the best bullets for everything at all distances.

True based on my experience too!!!!

I have used Berger VLD hunting bullets on light game and they have been devastating.

I once shot a pronghorn in the neck with a 140 grain Berger in .270 WSM and nearly took his head off.

But IMHO, heavier game needs bullets that are designed to hold together better and penetrate more deeply than these bullets can manage.

I would not use them on anything but smaller deer, sheep or antelope.

I killed 14 animals with 14 shots using 180 grain Nosler Partitions at 3200 fps, ranges 30 yards to 275 yards. All but one were a pass through. That one was a raking shot at a wildebeeste. I can't see any reason for using a different bullet. No turrets necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I killed 14 animals with 14 shots using 180 grain Nosler Partitions at 3200 fps, ranges 30 yards to 275 yards. All but one were a pass through. That one was a raking shot at a wildebeeste. I can't see any reason for using a different bullet. No turrets necessary.

Yep...

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
not sure why anyone hunting shoots anything other than a TSX, quit resisting.

I guess I am one of the weird ones. On my first trip to Africa, I used them (180 grain 300 win). Terrible performance.
Yes, we did kill a lot of plains game. And, in some instances, they did work okay. The worst experience was when I shot an eland. It was a 200 (give or take) yard shot. I hit it on the front shoulder and the bullet exploded.

A few years later, I decided to have my son try them on his elk hunt. Yes, it did work, he killed a bull. It put a pencil size hole through it and little if any blood. Fortunately, we found the bull. I know, I know, that can happen!

I have only tested them on 15-20 animals so my argument is a bit weak. I am only going off of my experience.

For elk, bison, bear, plains game..., my best results have came from other choices. You can laugh at me, but in recent years, I have killed a desert sheep, bear, bison, and elk with Federal Fusions. They have been the most accurate and have always performed.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I killed 14 animals with 14 shots using 180 grain Nosler Partitions at 3200 fps, ranges 30 yards to 275 yards. All but one were a pass through. That one was a raking shot at a wildebeeste. I can't see any reason for using a different bullet. No turrets necessary.

I agree!

How does a monolithic bullet explode? My son killed an eland with a 300 and TTSX at 100 yards that broke the femur and came to rest, no petals, under the skin of the opposite shoulder. That s a lot of eland to go through.

I wouldn't doubt Jason's TSX "explosion" experience but wonder if the bullet wasn't deformed by first hitting something unseen en route to the Eland ...
Most of the larger animal I shot were with either TSX 270 gn or, mostly, TSX 300 gn bullets and the few recovered bullets all penetrated and expanded as anticipated.
On Deer mostly I have used TSX 30 cal, 150, 165 and 180 gn and noted they often severely mangle internal organs ( mushy, bloody lungs etc ) before typically passing through.
Moreso now I shoot 30 cal TTSX, mostly 180 gn but some lighter too, which I find not quite as internally destructive but as effective for kills. They are quite accurate for the longer shots and what I really like is their ability to punch through bone and keep penetrating straight without much or any bullet weight loss. My faith in TTSX bullets is strong.

quote:

Originally posted by KevinNY:
How does a monolithic bullet explode? My son killed an eland with a 300 and TTSX at 100 yards that broke the femur and came to rest, no petals, under the skin of the opposite shoulder. That s a lot of eland to go through.

No idea! After I emailed Barnes, they did not know either.

PM me your email and I will send you pic and you can be the judge.

A pic from the dead eland? Anything can happen with bullets I guess, they have a short violent life.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

Originally posted by KevinNY:
How does a monolithic bullet explode? My son killed an eland with a 300 and TTSX at 100 yards that broke the femur and came to rest, no petals, under the skin of the opposite shoulder. That s a lot of eland to go through.

No idea! After I emailed Barnes, they did not know either.

PM me your email and I will send you pic and you can be the judge.

Jason, if you don't mind, please post it here. Would love to see. If you are not sure about how to post photos, you are welcome to email it to me. I can put it up for you.

I finally found the pic. I’ll get it over to you Marius..

quote:

Originally posted by KevinNY:
How does a monolithic bullet explode? My son killed an eland with a 300 and TTSX at 100 yards that broke the femur and came to rest, no petals, under the skin of the opposite shoulder. That s a lot of eland to go through.

They don't "explode". Not possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I killed 14 animals with 14 shots using 180 grain Nosler Partitions at 3200 fps, ranges 30 yards to 275 yards. All but one were a pass through. That one was a raking shot at a wildebeeste. I can't see any reason for using a different bullet. No turrets necessary.

I agree!

Excellent bullet, as is the TSX and Core-lokt and A-Frame. Not a Berger...

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

Originally posted by KevinNY:
How does a monolithic bullet explode? My son killed an eland with a 300 and TTSX at 100 yards that broke the femur and came to rest, no petals, under the skin of the opposite shoulder. That s a lot of eland to go through.

No idea! After I emailed Barnes, they did not know either.

PM me your email and I will send you pic and you can be the judge.

Jason, if you don't mind, please post it here. Would love to see. If you are not sure about how to post photos, you are welcome to email it to me. I can put it up for you.

No petals does not translate to "explode", it translates to "the petals broke off in the eland" which is not bad performance.

You will not get 100% retention on TSX or on Partitions. You frequently do on A-Frames and TBBC.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

Originally posted by KevinNY:
How does a monolithic bullet explode? My son killed an eland with a 300 and TTSX at 100 yards that broke the femur and came to rest, no petals, under the skin of the opposite shoulder. That s a lot of eland to go through.

No idea! After I emailed Barnes, they did not know either.

PM me your email and I will send you pic and you can be the judge.

Jason, if you don't mind, please post it here. Would love to see. If you are not sure about how to post photos, you are welcome to email it to me. I can put it up for you.

No petals does not translate to "explode", it translates to "the petals broke off in the eland" which is not bad performance.

You will not get 100% retention on TSX or on Partitions. You frequently do on A-Frames and TBBC.

Ok dogcat, how about this: It did not explode, it broke up in tiny small pieces…