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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Sliding ScaleGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Sliding Scale | Login/Join |
One of Us |
So I got to thinking today and realized that, in spite of what many here assert, I love a sliding scale for trophy fees! I also find it curious that hunters (generally being a conservative/capitalist bunch) seem to oppose such an obvious application of market forces. It is not that I want to pay more for bigger trophies...in fact I just don't want to pay more for the majority of trophies I hunt, which is actually the point. I have reached the pretty basic conclusion that under a "non-sliding" scale, those of us relatively unconcerned with trophy size or content to take old broomed trophies are generally subsidizing those who ARE concerned with such things. After all, the majority of trophies taken are basically by definition "average" and therefore the majority of us hunters are paying a decent bit more for our hunts so that the lucky guy who shoots a monster (or, even worse, insists on doing so) can pay the exact same price we do. I am also content to occasionally be that guy who has to pay more for a monster since it will, again by definition, be a rare event. Who is with me? Let's get our pitchforks and torches! Down with the inch-hunters...or at least let them pay their own bills. | ||
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Punished for being lucky, thats how I see it. With no sliding scale we can leave the measure tape at home. | |||
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TD, Your post assumes that the current price is for the larger trophies and that conversion to sliding scale would likely lower most trophy fees. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Well, I am actually assuming that the same (or even higher) profitability for firms could and would be achieved by exploiting a higher willingness to pay at the top end of the trophy class distribution and that this would free up money at the low end of that distribution. If MORE customers could be brought in to shoot "lesser" trophies as a result of the lower price and, in competing for them (therefore probably not dropping prices too much) then the firms profitability could be increased with the sliding scale. For example, people are willing to pay $1700 for a Nyala because they know that there is a chance of shooting a 30 incher. If they know the 30 incher is taken by a guy willing to pay $3000, the equilibrium price of Nyala under 30 inches will certainly fall below $1700. It's a pretty basic conclusion that "price discrimination" is profit maximizing.  | |||
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Exactly! That is why I refuse to hunt in Europe! | |||
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It would make hunting more about inches- not less. And imagine a budget safari where you want to take 7 animals but on the first day you run across that mythical 60 inch kudu. Do you take the shot and turn the rest of your hunt into a photo safari? Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Capitalism, (free market) requires knowledge and freedom of choice. We will see which system prevails. Like Saeed, I vote by not supporting the inches group. A free market is always the most efficient allocator of resources. Let's vote with our dollars. Tom ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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I believe that the sliding scale has its place on SA/Namibian game ranches and nowhere else. On game ranches, premium prices are paid for excellent breeding stock, it costs more to keep an animal alive until it is a trophy, and the owners know what animals are on the property. Just like deer farms in the US, owners can sell a specific animal or a specific class of animal for a set price. In wild Africa, it disgusts me that I will be punished for shooting a wild animal that happens to be an exceptional trophy. There is no guarantee that if I do not shoot it that another client will be able to shoot it. It may be killed by lions, snared by poachers, or simply die of old age. The last thing I want to think about when I am looking through my scope is whether or not I can justify the extra $5K for the extra 3 inches of horn. This practice very much seems like taking advantage of the client and rubs me the wrong way. I would be very hesitant to book with an outfit that utilizes the sliding scale. | |||
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What got me thinking about this was the buffalo discussion from a few weeks ago. If a guy owns a hunting area or even has a lease for exclusive rights in an area and he knows there are two 50 inch buffalo who "live there" (fenced or unfenced is irrelevant as an animal can always be killed by a predator, accident, or disease), it should probably be recognized that there is a "cost" associated with getting them that big. That cost comes in the form of restrained shooting in the past or present..and probably reduced short run returns. Given that, should not any outfitter be able to charge more for that animal to recoup his costs and to compensate for the reality that maybe that animal has a year of breeding left that is going away when he is shot. Of course he should...and he does charge! That is something I don't think people realize, the outfitter who does not charge according to a sliding scale is recouping that cost except he is recouping it a bit at a time from ALL hunters and not just the hunter who kills it. I think we all pay a bit of a premium when we shoot an average animal to partially compensate the outfitter for the huge animal that someone (maybe us...but no guarantees!) will shoot. We happily play this lottery and effectively buy a ticket hoping to be the guy that shoots the big one. The reality though, is that most of the time we lose that lottery so I think I would just as soon not subsidize others' success and pay only when I hit the number. I also got thinking about this in Scotland last year. I shot a nice old Roe that might, in the prime of his life, have gone bronze or even silver. I think I paid 150 bucks whereas a silver medal Roe was something like 900 bucks. If the guy did not charge on a sliding scale, to make the same money every year he might have had to charge 350 for every Roe shot. Being that I was content with what I shot, why should I be willing to subsidize some other guys preferences by paying more for my deer? | |||
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To me the not knowing what the hunt will bring is one of the major reasons to hunt. If it's a guided hunt I want to pay my money and then forget about it. I do not want to have to consider the money if I see an exceptional trophy. I can't imagine booking a hunt and saying " I can only afford a silver medal XYZ so if I see a gold medal I'll pass". Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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And who decides what the animals score? I have had 2 friends who had substantive disputes with outfitters who added fees after their guides told them to shoot the animal, it made their package goal, and then have the game farm say it was too big and they owed a fair amount more. I have had a PH tell me after we shot something that it was X inches, and then when I got home and it was "officially" scored, it was several inches off. Then lets not forget the fiasco that happened in south america where SCI revoked scoring privileges on red stags due to continued chicanery on scoring the animals (due to the inches = $$$ thing.) Sorry, I am not in to the sliding scale. Too may opportunities for bad behavior. | |||
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Tendrams, The problem with your theory is that you are assuming rational market dynamics and a consistent supply/market. There is no consistent market for the actual taking of a Nyala. There is only the "planned" taking of a Nyala. The actual market; i.e., the point of purchase, is instantaneous and fleeting. The market only occurs for the brief moment the trophy or non trophy appears and there is a captive buyer at that very moment. There is only upward price pressure and no downward price pressure because of the fixed cost of entry into to the market and the sunk cost of exit from the market. You are also assuming on the one hand the PH is profit motivated but on the same hand he is not. How many incremental Nyala sales will the PH make if he says a below average Nyala is 1200 instead of 1700. The answer is likely zero. Therefore, he has no incentive to reduce cost because the below average Nyala reaps the same price and is written off by the buyer as "the luck of the hunt". Really you should stick to applying your communist theories of labor economics tot eh Cairo economy.  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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No, he is always motivated by profit but will not be able to sell "average" animals (say a 27 inch Nyala) at the present t-fee anymore if the premium animals (The Magic 30" Nyala) are now sold at a premium price. He is a price taker. The only reason we pay present trophy fees is because we are buying the "lottery ticket" that says we have a chance at a premium animal. Let's face it, most of the time, we lose that lottery so we should not rationally continue paying. Still, as noted above part of the fun is the gamble so it is not unlike people playing blackjack knowing they will lose in the long term. Still, in this example, the PH is a price taker and will have to accept less for "average" animals if he accepts a higher price for premium animals. This MAY be profit maximizing if the price reduction for a guarantee of only average animals is not so great that it overwhelms the revenue increase in the premium animal sphere. I also find it odd that people (some on this thread) will obviously pay a hefty premium to hunt areas known for big specemins but apparently object to paying a premium in a lower cost and average area to shoot a premium specimin. Realistically, what is the difference? | |||
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Your theory is flawed from the start. The PH is a price maker. He has much greater control over the market than the buyer does. If the average price of a Nyala is 1700 any individual PH can charge 1900 and have essential no effect on any other PH. The buyer is buying a safari and not a Nyala. The majority of hunter's when presented an above average trophy do not say "Waterbuck" wasn't on my list so I won't take it. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I'm with Saeed on this. Some of those hunts offered on this forum in Europe sure sound interesting. I just can't get past the sliding scale trophy fees and as a result don't hunt in Europe. Tom Z NRA Life Member | |||
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No issues on pricing per inch (size) if hunting an enclosed set up where animals are indentified - shooting chattle in a way. I do have issue in wild hunting to be charged per inch. The ph outfitter cannot have a free option on charging daily rate on a unsuccessful hunt on the premise hunting is random/uncertain/element of luck. While on a exceptional trophy claiming a success fee. Can't have it both ways for me. I won't hunt there. Mike | |||
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The problem is the capilatistic principle in itself. For me hunting is about my personal experience in the bush with animals. It is about the location, terrain, vegetation, other fauna, sounds, climate / weather, wind, smells, dust etc. You take all that away and I would rather read Jim Corbet or JA Hunter. I'd rather watch BBC programs on wildlife. The problem with paying for any animal is that the seller is all the time trying "add value" in true capitalistic tradition. There is an inherent process of trying to get the customer to pay more. The focus in not on the hunt but on increasing profit by any claim. Many of the game farms have a dual pricing - a much lower price for local hunter and a double or triple price for US hunters. When hunting game farms most PHs add on a big margin to the trophy fees apart from charging a daily rate. How much does a canned lion hunt cost? "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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All around the world they hunt different, all around the world they charge different. Many expensive North America one species hunts you pay the whole fee even if you don't see game. When I go to Europe, I just figure the cost of the hunt includes the highest trophy fee, from there it's all discounted. I've never had a bad hunt there. (Scotland, France, Portugal) | |||
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I don't like the sliding scale pricing. I was blessed to kill a 41in buff in Zim. If the PH had said, "he's too big for what you're paying", I might have his head on the wall instead of the buff. Just kidding. I want to hunt the best animal I can without worrying about whether it is $3500 or $5000 because of an extra inch. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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Whatever happened to the "Keep It Simple Stupid" (KISS) theory................Hell, we humans are a crazy bunch. Hunting is not a rocket science activity. Buy a chocolate milkshake and enjoy it as a whole, don't worry about, or pay for, a percentage of chocolate or a percentage milk fat, or a specific temperature..........!!!!! Why the ****** complicate matters? Is the word "fun" being deleted from the English dictionary ????? | |||
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No disrespect to tendrams personally, but sometimes that could just be a bad thing !! | |||
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Now that was funny! And so true. And applies to me as well. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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This is a perfect example of "THE PARALYSIS OF ANALYSIS" and I agree it seems people have lost the whole idea of hunting being fun!! It is the hunt that counts, not the kill or the size of the trophy. ......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I agree. | |||
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Preeecisely. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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I have hunted three different countries In Africa and never once measured horn or tusk length.I have hunted SA where price depends on length and I 100% understand the logic and have Zero problem with it. Game farms spend huge amounts of money for the best breeding stock. It's simple economics you want big numbers( inchs) you pay big numbers. if it's a none farm hunt the sliding scale is 100% total bull shit designed by greed for greedy people. | |||
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As long as the client knows all about it upfront there should not be a problem with the system. Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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I would never hunt with an outfit that charges via sliding scale for trophy fees. | |||
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I believe every one of you has a valid point. Each of us have our reasons and they are a factor in our decision making process. Like the stock market, hunters paying for a hunt are not comfortable with uncertainty. Not knowing what the hunt will eventually cost is a problem for most, or at least disconcerting, even if the final cost is something that you can afford. If you are going after multiple animals in Europe, you should be able to anticipate an average cost. Some will be lower, some higher. In the end, it ought to be close to what you thought it should be. If you can't afford 10% uncertainty, then ,I agree, those hunts aren't for you. I don't mind the scale. I do mind paying an insane amount for a Stag, so I set the expectations with the outfitter AND THE GUIDE! try to stick to the budget and just go hunting. If I blow my budget, well, I'll sell a gun or donate plasma or work harder the next week, but I WILL NOT let it effect my enjoyment of the hunt. That's my mindset and I understand this isn't reasonable or rational for some. But it works for me. | |||
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I am more opposed to paying a sliding fee in a specific industry (African Safari industry for example) where it is not a common occurance. Why book with someone whose Kudu range from $1000-$3000 when 99% of the other guys have fixed rates? On the flip side, the Europeans do it the majority of the time and some Europeans love it since they like old broomed, broken or unusal trophies that don't score as high. Maybe that's why it's accepted i Europe. It can be a form of a discount to those looking for older, damaged or broken trophies, similar to the OP's mindset. To each his own. I have grown very fond of European hunting though and it's par for the course. | |||
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Because he actually has quite a few over 58" and one or two over 60"! 99% of the others have a few near Roland Ward size and by far most kudu hunted on their places are below 53 7/8". Furthermore 99 % of the kudu hunted at the fixed price hunting outfitters actually costs you more than the $ 1 000 that the sliding scale outfitter charges for hie below 53 7/8" kudu! It is really 6 of the one, and 1/2 dozen of the other. You can't have your cake and eat it! Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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B I N G O ! What I find funny is that people claim to NOT be "inch hunters" but at the same time they ridicule a pricing mechanism that effectively gives a decent discount to people who are NOT inch hunters! | |||
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Sorry, I disagree about that in a way... You are still a tape measure hunter, it's just that you are not looking for the biggest by the tape. As far as I am concerned, anyone charging sliding scale TF's better be hunting in an area that is enclosed, because what did they contribute to the size of the animal if it is a free ranging animal on a concession? I don't really have an issue with landowners charging however they wish, but they just won't be seeing my business. I like the random nature of wild hunting. I suspect I could have shot a lot of the bigger trophies I have taken for less total investment by going to a small area game farm, telling them I want a 47"buffalo and walking out and potting it from the bakkie. That's not the same experience as after many years of hunting buffalo in good concessions finally having it all come together. Those who want to shoot smaller animals and pay less for them are welcome to do it... But I call that cull shooting. I can't say I have ever gone out with the expectation of getting a "x" size trophy. I have on a few occasions had my jaw on the ground when I have walked up to what I did shoot. It's grand feeling. | |||
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I would simply opt not to hunt with any outfitter/PH who utilizes such a scale that hunts on public ground. He makes no contribution to the welfare of those animals, or to the game management in general. Game Ranches in Africa can be different, since the landowner may impose the scale. Even then, I'd just tell my PH to inform him we will not hunt there as long as the slider is in place. I may be a bit different, since I have never taken a tape measure hunting, and have never had an exact measurement of anything I have hunted in Africa or elsewhere. | |||
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Those are ridiculous statements and I am surprised you don't have concession holders calling you on it. Just because the land is not "owned" by the outfitter does not mean he does not make MAJOR contributions to trophy quality in the area. I suspect the most obvious contribution would be restraint in what clients shoot. Like it or not, this represents a cost to the outfitter that should probably be compensated. | |||
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Just like anything else in life Sometimes it is right and other times wrong Personally I don't like sliding scale in wild places where you get that shot once so I don't wanna worry about some extra after its dead " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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