Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply |
one of us |
I received word yesterday, from a member of the NRA Board of Directors, that the hunt donation from Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris for the NRA Heritage Fund has been rejected. Because of a felony conviction under the Lacey Act by Dawie Groenewald, NRA officials pulled the donation of the hunt. Cheers, ~ Alan Life Member NRA Life Member SCI email: editorusa(@)africanxmag(dot)com African Expedition Magazine: http://www.africanxmag.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alan.p.bunn Twitter: http://twitter.com/EditorUSA Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. ~Keller To be persuasive we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; to be credible we must be truthful. ~ Murrow | ||
|
One of Us |
I am glad to see the NRA has a conscience, backbone, morals, ect. They did the right thing. | |||
|
One of Us |
+1 nothin sweeter than the smell of fresh blood on your hunting boots | |||
|
One of Us |
Way to lead by example. Will J. Parks, III | |||
|
one of us |
Good for the board. It has been a long haul Alan but things appear to finally be coming home to roost. Unfortunately the real leaders wont be joining Dawie. It is good to see you posting here again. PM or skype me when you get a chance. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
|
One of Us |
Just curious and it would be interesting to know if the NRA has ever accepted gifts/donations from OoA in the past? It seems OoA has been making the rounds over the years? I am sure SCI isn't the only ones this bunch catered to in the past. Nice to know the jig is up for this group. Larry Sellers SCI Life Member | |||
|
one of us |
Perhaps the NRA has accepted donations in the past, but then, the NRA doesn't have the extensive hunting report system that the SCI has for its members. Or the complaint system. And they got bad reports from both sources. SCI had to know. There lies the difference. And yet nothng from SCI. Good for the NRA; shame on the SCI. JPK Free 500grains | |||
|
One of Us |
You don't think that the big shots in the NRA aren't big hunters and folks who go to SCI? The NRA is a good outfit, and I'm an endowment life member there, but I don't think they are that much cleaner than SCI here. I suspect that SCI has some internal bureaucracy that must be run through, and eventually the same result will occur. If it doesn't, then there needs to be a housecleaning. | |||
|
one of us |
I know the Groenewalds were making the rounds to many different affairs. This included many they hadnt hit untill recently. NRA and RMEF were two as well as many others. I dont know for sure, but didnt see this happening until the pressure started mounting at SCI. The pressure was coming mostly from the chapter level not the international. As much as I personally hated the association hard proof, meaning a court conviction was not avaialble until now. I dont like it when I know in my heart that someone is dirty and I can do nothing about it. I also understand budren of proof and innocent until proven guilty. It is the same for free speech. I definitely may hate what you say but will defend your right to say it. I guess they waited for a burden of proof. We will now see what SCI International and the ethics committee does now. This will be the true indicator of the moral compass,. I still say SCI is a good outfit even if there are a few bad apples in the bunch. I worked hard to make my opinions of OOA known and believe I made a small difference, at least on the chapter level. I am now content with the conviction to take a wait and see attitude toward SCI. If they dont act, or act in a timely manner that will confirm what some have said all along. I am a life member of both SCI and NRA as well as some other organizations. I have voiced my opinions at all. If SCI refuses to act on this I will personally help line up the pitchforks and light the torches. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
|
one of us |
The NRA does what was called for, and still the cheap shot. If one wants to find sleazy business dealings start at your local city government. The city council just might be in bed with the businesses they own. Now there is some slime. It reminds of the U.S. Congress and the White House. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
One of Us |
Excuse me? Cheap shot? The NRA took the donation. The NRA has lots of folks that go to SCI who are on the BOD. Nugent being an example. How many US SCI members are not NRA members? Few. Face it, all of these organizations are significantly involved as FUND RAISERS. I am pretty sure that the fund raising is somewhat separate from the political and advocacy groups, but they are all still worrying about it, otherwise I would not be getting umpteen mailings and phone calls from the NRA for money to fight Obama's gun grabs (which while I'm sure he wouldn't mind doing it, he hasn't stepped on that 3rd rail yet...) The critical difference here between the NRA/SCI and our beloved "gubment" is that I have a choice to donate to these orgs. Is there trouble with all of the above, sure. Get rid of the bad apples and not the whole barrel. | |||
|
One of Us |
NRA did the right thing. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
|
one of us |
What did you do to make a difference? Dinging NRA for acting as soon as there was a conviction and a legally defensible position is a bit silly as well as damn unproductive dont you think? There is a huge difference between burden of proof and "knowing" something no matter how strongly we feel about it. You have to do things in a proper manner or it will come back to bite you. I would suggest chanelling some of the frustration and anger many here seem to feel into making a positive change. In my book that dosnt mean throwing stones and second guessig every move someone else makes. Do something to make a difference. I have worked hard for the last 5 years on this. So have many others. If all you want to do is bad mouth others because they didnt act in a manner that you see fit dont bother. If you really want to make a difference on this or any other issue pick up the gauntlet and get involved. Actually do something to make a difference. Last I knew in this country at least there was still a big difference between burden of proof and accusation an inuendo. I despise OOA and a few of those involved with them. I have worked hard to make my position known and provide evidence as to why I believe what I do. It is too easy for too many to just throw stones then sit back and do nothing. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
|
One of Us |
If this was a shot at my comment, my response is that I am involved in "doing something". Maybe not publicity wise, but as an example, I give quite a bit to the NRA, and am involved at the grassroots level with contacting my reps. I don't believe in being a right wing Obamaesque "Community Organizer." If you do, fine, but don't expect me to give you cash for doing so. My point is that both SCI and NRA should have had some inkling this was going on, it wasn't that hard to find a lot of smoke on the internet about them. They (OoA) showed up as one of the "Don't do anything with these guys" people when I was researching my last couple of safaris. If I could find this with a simple internet search, why didn't SCI or the NRA? The legal aspect is a bit of a smokescreen- there is no liability with just turning down a donation. Money. It seems to be the root of all evil here. I am not saying the NRA isn't good. In fact, the point you are stating was somewhat indirectly what I was trying to get at- most everyone thinks the NRA is good here, and it seems a majority think SCI is bad. I was attempting to state that they are about the same. When we had the NRA convention in Minneapolis, the egos on display were quite momentous in places (Nugent being one- I don't care for his bravura (or BS) but lots do- to each their own); and this appears to be the major gripe about SCI here. (record book, etc.) It sounds like you are saying that I should put up or shut up re the NRA. I think that all the national organizations at some point seem to be driven more by perpetuation of the group than what they originally started as. Ducks Unlimited, NRA, SCI, RMEF, Pheasants Forever, etc. That doesn't mean the org does no good, it means the membership needs to be vigilant on what it is doing. I have expressed my opinion to many in the NRA about the fund raising and the dominance it is getting. The best answer I have received is that they outsource fundraisng at times, and it works. I was told if it offended me they would take me off the mailing list (which they mostly have- I only get the calls when the political system is going) which to me shows that if the membership is annoyed enough these big orgs will listen to us. Unfortunately, it also says they want the money more than they care what I or many other members think. My indignation is for those of us who don't see the similarities and issues of these big groups and try and hold them accountable. If I'm wrong to your intentions, I sincerely apologize. | |||
|
one of us |
I hate OOA and have fought to get rid of them. To assume anyone else knows something is just that an assumption. My point was and is it is easy to be an armchair quarterback and second guess what everyone else has done or not done according to your limited knowledge. Dont throw stones at the guys trying to do the right thing especially when you are not in possession of all the facts. OOA has been a thorn in my side and the industry for the last several years. That said, we all agree we want to get rid of them. There is a legal process in this country that must be observed even when it is not popular. When you play by the rules as you should as an honest person you have to play by all the rules not just the ones you like. To fault the NRA for acting in a positive manner as soon as there was real evidence and not just heresay is ridiculous. Yes we all need to be vigilant and work against people like this. You seem to miss the point that we are all on the same side and trying to accomplish the same thing. I guess I am saying put up but not shut up. Do something to make a difference. I guarantee you will be frustrated at times, even pissed off. I certainly have been. I find that a lot of people especially on the internet will take cheap shots. It is easy when not dealing face to face. I want to see you or anyone else channel your displeasure with any issues like this into making a real change. No apology needed. I just am frustrated with the fact that a very small percentage actually do anything to back up their words. I am sorry if you took this as a shot at you it wasnt intended that way. I want people to think about the real issues and decide what they can do to make a difference. I also agree there is a lot of ego at all these type organizations. Dont confuse your(or my) dislike of someones bravado or personaity trait for their efforts at doing the right thing. This isnt a popularity contest or at least it shouldnt be. What should be concentrated on here is they pulled the donation and the Groenewalds are out. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
|
one of us |
Mike, If you, or any others members of the Accurate Reloading community, are going to the NRA convention in Charlotte, would you stop by the SCI booth and see if you can get a straight answer from them? A detailed report back here to the AR members would be enlightening. Names & titles of booth personnel would be helpful, if they wish to opine (apologies to Bill O) ,.......and even more so if they don't! Cheers, ~ Alan Life Member NRA Life Member SCI email: editorusa(@)africanxmag(dot)com African Expedition Magazine: http://www.africanxmag.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alan.p.bunn Twitter: http://twitter.com/EditorUSA Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. ~Keller To be persuasive we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; to be credible we must be truthful. ~ Murrow | |||
|
One of Us |
Being a stupid Mick I always jump into fights I should stay out of - but, hey, are we giving ammo to the anti-gun types by these public quarrels among variously, gun owners and hunters? | |||
|
One of Us |
Wow! This topic went in a variety of directions in hurry. And while I believe the "negative passion" or angst for OOA is good cause for that! I also believe that the speculation and or assumptions of NRA culpability are premature and uncalled for. Re; OOA and NRA relationshp: I have been to a good number of the NRA Annual meetings and chaired the advisory committee for the Louisville Annual meeting's special events and fundraising. I do not know of any previous association between OOA and the NRA and I can assure you that the staff of the NRA’s foundation are all extremely dedicated and professional and work many long hours so unfortunately do not likely get to peruse the forums for the inside info. With their important fundraiser just a week away I believe their 11th hour action illustrates their high degree of dedication and professionalism. Re; SCI and NRAFirst the relationship between NRA and SCI might best be illustrated by SCI’s planning their Spring Board meeting in Washington DC on the same dates as the NRA’s Annual meeting every year for quite some time. One school of thought is that this is the only week of the year where SCI can have a significant presence in the Capital since all of the NRA are gone. By contrast I do know that a good number of NRA’s top people on their extremely busy and diverse staff do attend the SCI convention. This year I ran into at least 10 of the top including President Ron Schmeits, Wayne LaPierre, Chris Cox, and 4 of the top foundation executives. Ted Nugent is one of the NRA’s 75 member Board of Directors and was there but when I saw him he was representing his own interests. I believe that the NRA understands that mutual interest in protecting among other things hunting and sporting hunting rifles is best served with strong relationships or associations with likeminded conservation organizations in order to fight the multifaceted “anti” movement. However to think that by these individuals attending the SCI Convention or thru the cooperative relationships that this would automatically give any or the appropriate individuals the inside information on grievances against OOA would also be a leap. Re; booth I was on a mass mailing asking for volunteers to assist the NC SCI chapter in manning that booth in Charlotte so I doubt that there will be anyone there that can speak to the issue in any official capacity. Best regards Mike Ohlmann Mike's Custom Taxidermy Inc. 4102 Cane Run Rd. Louisville KY 40216 502-448-1309 Mike@mikescustomtaxidermy.com www.mikescustomtaxidermy.com | |||
|
One of Us |
Semantics: The contributor can PULL a donation. The contributee can only REJECT a donation or return it. Rich DRSS | |||
|
one of us |
Gerry, The cat has been out of the bag for a long time, except for the SCI apologists and OoA allies who obsessively post on AR demanding 'proof'. Here is an article from 2006 that appeared in Newsweek magazine. Since I watch anti-hunting sites for sport, I have seen it re-posted on two different ones since its original Newsweek debut. http://www.newsweek.com/id/47302 Shoot to Kill: Inside the hidden links between American big-game hunters and Zimbabwe's Mugabe dictatorship. Jocelyn Chiwenga is not a woman to be taken lightly. The wife of Gen. Constantine Chiwenga, commander-in-chief of Zimbabwe's army, Mrs. Chiwenga has earned a reputation in her own right as a vicious enforcer for President Robert Mugabe and his ruling Zimbabwe African National Union-Popular Front (ZANU-PF). In April 2002 she reportedly showed up at a farm outside Harare, the capital, with an armed gang and ordered the farm's white owner to turn over his property to her or be killed, according to documents filed in a Zimbabwean court. One year later, Chiwenga accosted Gugulethu Moyo, an attorney for a pro-opposition newspaper, and beat her so severely that she had to seek medical attention. "Your paper wants to encourage anarchy in this country," Chiwenga reportedly shouted as she punched and slapped the 28-year-old lawyer on a Harare street. "Chiwenga is as close to the center of power as you get," says David Coltart, a parliamentarian and leader of the Movement for Democratic Change, the country's main opposition party. She also knows how to use her power. About three years ago, Chiwenga won an auction for a coveted lease on a 220-square-mile tract of bush, owned by Zimbabwe's Parks and Wildlife Authority, located just outside Hwange National Park in southwest Zimbabwe. Abounding in the Big Five--lion, elephant, Cape buffalo, leopard, and black rhino--Chiwenga's property has since become a choice destination for professional hunters, particularly well-heeled Americans. Now, Chiwenga's business ambitions--as well as her political clout--have brought her to the attention of the U.S. government. Last November, the Treasury Department added Chiwenga, 50, to a list of 128 Mugabe relatives and cronies who are "undermining democratic processes or institutions in Zimbabwe." The Treasury Department has blocked the assets of those on the list and established penalties of up to $250,000 and 10 years' imprisonment for anyone who does business with them. And that executive order has put dozens, if not hundreds, of Americans who hunt on her land in legal jeopardy. Click here to find out more! Chiwenga's sanctioning by the U.S. government has drawn new attention to the unsavory, and usually hidden, links between American sportsmen and the Mugabe dictatorship. During the past six years, Zimbabwe's economy has been in free fall, with the country's gross domestic product dropping by half and agricultural production sinking by more than 80 percent. But hunting has remained one of the country's few thriving industries, bringing in as much as $30 million annually, according to conservationists and professional hunters in Zimbabwe. Much of that cash has gone into the coffers of ZANU-PF insiders, who have gained control of government-owned safari land at below market prices, reportedly through rigged auctions in many cases. One of Chiwenga's neighbors in the Victoria Falls area is Webster Shamu, Mugabe's Minister of Policy Implementation, and a key architect of Operation Murambatsvina--"Clean out the Rubbish"--the brutal slum clearance program that has left some 700,000 poor black Zimbabweans homeless. (Shamu is among the original 77 insiders who had their assets frozen and were barred from entering the United States by the Treasury Department in 2003). Another big player is Jacob Mudenda, the former governor of Matabeleland North. All of them do a brisk business catering to professional American hunters, who make up about half of the clientele, according to industry insiders. The Mugabe cronies-turned-safari operators are usually careful to conceal their direct involvement in the hunting business. Joyce Chiwenga, for example, seems to work through a network of agents that markets safaris heavily in the United States but never reveal the name of the property's primary lease holder. Among them: Rob and Barry Style, owners of Buffalo Range Safaris, based in Harare. The Style brothers are regular participants at the Annual Hunters' Convention scheduled for next week in Reno, Nevada,--a three-day marketing extravaganza sponsored by Safari Club International, America's largest hunting club--and at other venues where American hunters congregate. Although Rob Style denied in an e-mail to NEWSWEEK that he had a business relationship with Chiwenga, several professional hunters in Zimbabwe insist that the brothers have frequently taken clients to shoot animals on her property. The Hunting Guide, an industry newsletter published in the United States, also names Buffalo Range Safaris as a hunting-safari operator on Chiwenga-owned land. Asked whether Safari Club International was concerned about the prospect of facilitating commercial links between American hunters and a sanctioned Zimbabwean figure, David Nagore, an SCI spokesman, says "On the advice of counsel, SCI has no comment on the matter." American hunters are also flocking to private-game reserves that were seized without compensation, and sometimes with violence, from white farmers and ranchers as part of Mugbe's radical land-reform program, which reached a peak in 2002. That property is now mostly in the hands of ZANU-PF activists and Zimbabwe independence war veterans--considered to be among Mugabe's most diehard supporters. While hunting on these properties doesn't violate U.S. sanctions, human-rights activists and political opposition figures in Zimbabwe say that it is morally objectionable and helps to give legitimacy to a repressive regime. In addition, it is on these ranches, Zimbabwe conservationists charge, that some of the worst abuses of the country's environment are taking place--abuses that could threaten the survival of Zimbabwe's rich wildlife, especially the endangered black rhino. Many of the land owners who took this property by force have no experience in wildlife conservation: they reportedly ignore strict hunting quotas established by the Wildlife Authority on prized species such as lion and leopard. They also allegedly kill animals, including rhino, inside protected wildlife areas such as Hwange National Park, one of southern Africa's most renowned game reserves. "Poaching is rife," says Johnny Rodrigues, the head of the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force, a private activist group. "There's no law and order here." Sorting through the thicket of charges and countercharges can be difficult. Larry Cumming, a white rancher, purchased Woodland Estates near Victoria Falls more than 30 years ago and developed it into one of the country's best hunting and safari reserves. "I built dams, fenced the property, sunk 22 boreholes, purchased wildlife," he says. But in 2001 the Mugabe regime forced him to surrender half his property--and half his hunting revenue--to 89 destitute Zimbabwean families as part of its land-redistribution plan. Threats were exchanged and, in 2003, Cumming and his wife fled the ranch and moved to Victoria Falls. At that point, a local safari company, Inyathi Hunting--partly owned by Mudenda, the former provincial governor and a close associate of Mugabe--signed a deal with the ranch's new owners to take over commercial hunts on the property. During the past two years, Cumming charges, Inyathi has been ignoring quotas, hunting for game on other properties, and failing to keep track of wounded animals--a serious violation of hunting ethics. "Inyathi is hunting there knowing that they will not have the property forever, so there's pillage and rape [of the environment]," Cumming charges. Steve Williams, the founder of Inyathi and now a marketing consultant for the company, says that he and his partners had no qualms about buying rights to hunt on land that Cummings says was stolen from him. "If your government goes with it [as a policy], then you have to go with it," he says. Williams claims that Cumming is spreading untrue reports because he is embittered about losing the property. "I can't condemn the man for being emotional about something that's been his for years, but we were never a part of that," he says. He argues that much of the hunting revenue benefits poor black Zimbabweans who wouldn't have shared the wealth during the days of white ownership. "The 89 black families who have taken over Woodland Estate now have safe drinking water, a better standard of living, an income. We've taken the blows, the allegations, the ridicule of people like Cumming. But we're operating the property in a manner that we are proud of," Williams says. That may be so. But in September 2005, Mudenda, along with three other top officials of ZANU-PF, were accused by a conservation group in Zimbabwe of using fake hunting permits and poaching wildlife in the Intensive Conservation Areas in Matabeleland, established by the government in 1991 to protect rhino, elephant, lion and other prized species. All have denied the charges. [bold]Debate also swirls around what many industry sources call the most controversial operator in Zimbabwe: Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris. Founded by four former South African policemen and based in both South Africa and Overland Park, Kan., the company has done a brisk business taking a heavily American clientele to hunt on several ranches that, according to industry watchdogs in Zimbabwe, were seized by ZANU-PF activists and independence war veterans. Critics, including the Zimbabwean Association of Tourism and Safari Operators, say that the group uses poorly trained hunting guides who, among other violations, sometimes endanger the lives of their clients and overhunt species in violation of the Zimbabwean government's hunting rules. Zimbabwe's Parks and Wildlife Authority banned Out of Africa last year from operating in the country. "This is an unscrupulous organization that doesn't respect the environment and pursues unsustainable quotas," says David Coltart, the opposition leader. Conservationist Johnny Rodrigues calls the company the most "flagrant violator" of hunting regulations in Zimbabwe. Dawie Groenewald, one of the founding partners of Out of Africa, denies that his company has done anything ethically wrong and says that he has been slandered by white Zimbabwean hunters. "The white Zimbabweans hunting in Zim don't want anyone else coming in there to hunt--they hate South Africans coming to hunt in their kingdom," he told NEWSWEEK. Out of Africa's attorney, Kevin Anderson, says that "these allegations about poaching and other illegal activities have been floating around for several years and they've never been substantiated." Anderson also says that Out of Africa recently decided to stop organizing hunts in Zimbabwe because "it's just become too difficult." Whatever the case, next week in Reno, Out of Africa will set up its usual booth at the SCI convention--just down the hall from Buffalo Range Safaris, according to the SCI Web site. But for the hundreds of American sportsmen browsing for an African safari next week, finding out the full story of those two companies' activities in Zimbabwe will require a real hunting expedition. © 2006 Cheers, ~ Alan Life Member NRA Life Member SCI email: editorusa(@)africanxmag(dot)com African Expedition Magazine: http://www.africanxmag.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alan.p.bunn Twitter: http://twitter.com/EditorUSA Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. ~Keller To be persuasive we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; to be credible we must be truthful. ~ Murrow | |||
|
one of us |
Rich, You are absolutely right, and I should have used reject. In fact, it sounds much better. How about a new, more accurate headline: Unscrupulous poachers, Out of Africa, has donation to NRA Heritage Fund REJECTED David Coltart is a pretty experienced at recognizing an unscrupulous organization or two, so I think his description of Out of Africa is apropos. ~Alan Cheers, ~ Alan Life Member NRA Life Member SCI email: editorusa(@)africanxmag(dot)com African Expedition Magazine: http://www.africanxmag.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alan.p.bunn Twitter: http://twitter.com/EditorUSA Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. ~Keller To be persuasive we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; to be credible we must be truthful. ~ Murrow | |||
|
Powered by Social Strata |
Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia