Firstly, Saaed let me apologize that this thread caused such consternation for you as our gracious host. When you carry a bowel of food to puppies they ll happily greet you but then nip your ankles. Maybe it's the same with cheetah cubs and hunters?

By way of background I ve had a long interest in forensics, mostly human, but also dissecting all the animals I ve or hunting partners have shot, discussing cartridge performance with PHs, such as Don Heath, and reading a large library of books on the subject. Nevertheless I m not an expert and I was interested in the real world experience of other buffalo hunters.

I m fully aware Don loved his 9.3x62 and he gave me pictures of some of his hunts including the amazing one of the elephants head exploding in dust from his 9.3 just as he shot it and the more unfortunate one of the PH killed in a buffalo charge. I think we can all agree that a well placed and penetrating solid in the brain, both elephant or buffalo, will most of the time kill an animal. There are the occasional exceptions. In my fathers butchery the cattle did not always go down with a .22 blank / piston gun shot, humans have survived brain shots, and claerly in a buffalo or lion from a frontal shot the brain is not much bigger than egg. Bullets without much speed can go between the cerebral hemispheres or mote amazingly enter the skull and follow the inner curve of the skull (calverium) and exit without killing a person and one PH book I read of the same in an elephant autopsy. Aaron has the video of him shooting the boss of a buffalo that hardly flinched. As far as spinal shots it depends where they are. I ve shot buffalo and PG in the chest thoracic vertebrae but below the cervical vertebrae and the the animals have been bowled over, sometimes lost consciousness (spinal shock) but then have come round and tried to get up with there forelimbs. On autopsy the thoracic vertebrae were shattered and by the way it's a smallish target. And remember the spine dips down to about mid neck / chest height at the brisket, a point Kevin Robertson makes and I just checked on the last buffalo I shot.

So what about the results, clearly a small sampling and not complete?

Firstly as far as rifles reportedly used: .375 or .400-475 was used by 69% or about two thirds. Only

Only one quarter had used the .500 dreds and one eighth .577 and rarely larger.

Secondly, more were killed by first shots with a .375, namely approximately half or put in another way, twice as often as 2-3 shots. However a number, about one in seven needed four or more shots.

For the .400-475 again 34 used this group. In retrospect it would have been good to see how the .416 did versus others. The penetration of .416 with a solid is excellent but more relevant to elephant brain shots. Does it matter with body shots with say a TSX and the higher velocity versus doubles in this category? Who knows? At least in this small sample, about the same results as .375, but namely slightly less died from first shots. And slightly more needed two 2-3 than .375. The numbers are to small but similar trends with a number needing four or more shots.

Again for .500 dreds few people used them, 12, but equally needed one shot or 2-3. Of note none needed more.

Again, like .500 dreds, .577 and larger, usually got the job done with one to three shots but not needing more.


Can trends be gleaned? Certainly not statistically !

Clearly if the hunter shoots their .375 to .475 caliber well and hits the heart with an expanding bullet, it will die. If you don't hit the heart you may need some tracking, more shots, and experience an exciting time ! Keep practicing and make sure your PH is ready (once one was not there for me for wounded buff and another time a friend and former boss nearly go killed - had severe injuries , from the PH not being in place) with a big

Does the element of recoil or not practicing play a role in these two categories? Maybe but one can't tell if one compared results by experts versus the occasional hunter with these guns. We also don't know if all used softs or soft followed by solids, maybe multiple.

For the big guns, clearly there is no guarantee of first shot, placement is still critical but if not perfect, follow up is less likely needed with multiple shots. Clearly the holes are bigger. The .577 TSX from my last buffalo in July in the off shoulder muscle, clearly hit no bone (I ve seen the disintegrate) was a perfect flower with petals or propeller and measures 1.25" (3.2mm) in diameter! But the buffalo ran about 50-60 yards an got some more bullet fodder while running.

There many different opinions expressed, some strongly and vociferously, in this thread! Can one find the variable that maybe is an important factor that is not addressed to resolve these real life differences in experience?

One variable that is not looked at with this poll is the influence of bullet velcity.

I must agree with Saeed that the .375 can be very effective but I personally am a strong believer in also velocity influence. Like Saeed I have two custom .375 s but based on Gibbs .505 cases. His is based on .404. Mine are absolutely lethal but heavy and incredibly accurate. I have shot buffalo with .375 H & H through the heart but in total ran about 120 yards with a half inch hole in the left pumping chamber (left ventricle). I ve seen people survive bullet holes in the heart from .22 and 9mm but never a .223 or .45 ACP although that may have happened but unlikely at close range. The record that if seen recorded was 28 9 mm bullets all over the body. The issue with smaller bullets is the smaller holes that can temporarily seal in the heart with clot, particularly low pressure cambers and also the cycle of the heart when it is hit.

Similarly, a lower velocity bullet outside the heart or big arteries (aorta and pulmonary) is less likely to kill quickly, particularly if small. But the big unknown factor is that of hydrostatic shock. There clearly is a lot of research on this in ballistic gels and fair amount of hunter experience, but again, if not in the heart, it needs to be near major nerve plexi or closed chambers with blood vessels. It also makes the blast effect greater in the abdomen, like liver.

What is there in the hunting literature? I m reminded of the story of the meat harvester in Mozambique that shot over 6000 buffalo for the sugar plantations (Peter Flack says they were shooting 10,000 a year) and the priest who did the same with smaller calibers. If I remember correctly Harry Manners said they used small calibers, and the sugar harvester from the back of a truck chasing buffalo, but in the end got killed by a wounded buffalo. Proves nothing other than a bufffalo can kill you. There are plenty of stories about injuries from buffalo using .577 among the elephant hunters like Sutherland and Neumann. Of note one of the, and I forget which one, did switch briefly to a .500 NE but had some close calls and went back to .577. But then they also had elephants not killed by brain .577 shots and remember the .577 does not have the best Sectional Density or real life penetration. I ve shot buffalo from the front and rear with a .577 solid and it has not exited. With the extra velocity, I ve shot a buffalo from the rear through the buttock with a Gibbs .505 and it exited the chest. Is it a quicker killer than a high velocity custom .375 or low velocity (mine is at max of about 2100fps) .577? I don't know but if anybody would like to sponsor me or come a long for a three way comparison with 20 buffalo in each category, happy to do it !!!

A comment on the .577s performance related from the early hunters, bear in mind that they used Kynoch or Eley factory ammunition.

I have an article by Carl Labuschagne ( Magnum oct.1995), a now deceased SA PH. He used a .577 double a lot on buffalo and elephant. He praise the round but complained about lousy performance with the old Kynoch bullets, solids mostly deform and changed direction in the body and failed to exit...he had a box full of solids that failed. Same trouble with disintegrating softs.

He reloaded with Woodleighs and A-Squares and had only praise for them....and claim that the .577 was the only really effective round for body shots on elephant.

The .600 was also plagued with bum bullets.

For a few years we keep track of one shot kills on buffalo.

We had 86% one shot kills on ours with a 375/404.

Wow that s great performance Saeed. Right combination of accuracy, speed of bullet, and bullet performance.

Pondoro as you probably know a number of the great white hunters came through or from South Africa and loved their .577 including Sutherland and Neumann. The great series of testing by Sam Rose and Michael458 clearly showed the problem with old round nose type Kynoch and veering off course. http://forums.accuratereloadin...911034341#9911034341
I used Kynoch solid in Gibbs .505 with one markedly changing course and that s why I changed to flat nose CEB solids or Northfork cup partial expanding that Kevin Roberson recommended. As you know he lets his clients use a 9.3 if they don't bring a rifle but swears by his Gibbs .505 for buffalo although he seems to have had a recent problem with a buffalo and the .505 but I ve not asked him what happened. I agree the new .577 bullets are much better. I use CEB solids for the left barrel and mostly TSX for the right. I did take a side shot on a buffalo with the CEB non conventional with shedding blades / petals through the heart of a buffalo. It was like hitting a balloon and the buffalo just deflated. Just like the link above the heart was destroyed by about about 3/4 inch hole and I recovered the bullet in the off side chest. No petals off-course on the solid piece. I shot a impala in the chest with the .577 CEB non con ...destroyed the meat and the solid part exited leaving a big hole. Nevertheless I suspect in real life for Texas heart shots the Gibbs .505 has better penetration. As you know most of the elephant culling in Kruger I m told was done with 7.62 FN R1 to the brain solids. I don't know what was used for buffalo culling? Maybe also 7.62?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
For a few years we keep track of one shot kills on buffalo.

We had 86% one shot kills on ours with a 375/404.

Statistics can be deceiving and often interesting to play with.

I can't recall the exact figures now but a statistic I read about once said the US Postal service had a successful delivery rate of something like 99.999% meaning a failure rate of just 0.001%. This sounds excellent and could well be for a postal delivery service but because of the millions upon millions of mail articles handled every day the actual failure rate added up to thousands of letters failing to be delivered.

Now for 50 buffalo you are only going to have to use 7 more of your Walterhog wonder bullets for a second shot on 7 hightailing buffalo but for a total of 300 buffalo you will have used another 42 Walterhogs for a second shot with 42 buffalo heading for the hills

This is all in jest by the way, I imagine your 86% one shot kill rate is pretty high on the scale.

Sadly, the above statistic is with my own buffalo.

I am not going to mention some friends of mine, whose average might be close to 10 rounds each.

I do know of one instance of 12 or 14 rounds being needed to put a buffalo down.

All with same gun, same ammo, same bullet.

We have had instances where some hunter ran out of ammo, and stood in the middle of the bush screaming "BULLETS! BULLETS! MORE BULLETS!"

It is all part of hunting.

We have had a hunter shoot a bull with I think 4 rounds, and make 18 holes in the buffalo!

Let us see if anyone can beat that one.

The buffalo was lying down, and he was shooting it from the rear.

The bullet would go in the rear leg, out again, into the stomach, out again, into the neck out again, and through an ear.

The Ph was screaming STOP SHOOTING1

The hunter was screaming IS HE DEAD?

And the rest of us rolling on the ground laughing.

All of the one-shot kills/stops would have been mainly due to shot placement. Just my two cents worth.

quote:

Originally posted by Barry Groulx:
All of the one-shot kills/stops would have been mainly due to shot placement. Just my two cents worth.

Exactly!

Put it in the wrong, no matter how big the bullet is, and it ain't gone to work!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
For a few years we keep track of one shot kills on buffalo.

We had 86% one shot kills on ours with a 375/404.

With a master bulletsmith and ballistician such as Walter, did this surprise you?

(Hope to not take this off topic) Saeed, from your experience what is your favourite first shot placement on a Buffalo? Diagram would be useful.

quote:

Originally posted by 280AI:
(Hope to not take this off topic) Saeed, from your experience what is your favourite first shot placement on a Buffalo? Diagram would be useful.

I think we tend to over complicate things when it comes to hunting and where to shoot animals.

I remember someone came up with something called THE PAY LINE.

In which he had two lines cross the body of an animal.

One horizontal and one vertical.

That was such a load of bloody rubbish, like many aiming points one sees published.

The major organs are in the middle of the chest. Such as the heart and the arteries at the top of it.

I aim for that, regardless of the position of the buffalo - even directly from the rear end.

If they are close, I shoot them in the head or neck.

Head shooting a buffalo is not very difficult.

Just imagine a straight line joining the two ear holes, and aim to break it.

I have used this very simple system to shoot buffalo from every imaginable angle, including hitting then in the tail!

I read an article by Gayana where he stated that the zimbabwe ph apprentice test asked how long can a buffalo live with a 375 solid through its heart? He said the answer was 30 miniutes. But that a 416 didn't have that problem with a solid as the hole was too big to close up. So for 375 and smaller bores maybe you should always use good premium softs.

I asked Kevin Robertson if I may post his comments to me and he graciously gave me permission to do so. As you all know he is famous for his perfect shot cards and books and also his excellent book on buffalo hunting. I ve read through it a couple of times. Note his experience is now up to 650 buffalo with clients using a 9.3 and backing up with a Gibbs .505.



May I post this quote from you below to the discussion on buffalo and caliber:

I have no experience with the .577 so it is difficult to answer your question.

With buffalo – shot placement is a lot more important than calibre.

To support this statement I own a Brno ZG 47 9,3 x 62 mm which has now in excess of 650 buffalo ‘scalps’ to its credit and this is as small as one can legally go!

Place a good quality bullet through the top of a buffalo’s heart and it will die pretty quickly when the aorta or pulmonary artery is ruptured.

I have done this with a .303 British and a 174 grain military FMJ and the number of buffalo killed cleanly with my 9,3 is testomy to this.

My preferred buffalo bullet for my .505 is now the 600 grain North Fork Cup Nosed Solid. 2150 fps is plenty fast enough.

I have now shot a number of buffalo with these bullets. From side-on they shoot right through but they leave a permanent wound channel as big as a golf ball.

Those placed at the base of the tail were recovered in the throat / thoracic inlet area. Full body length penetration.

I had to shoot a bull in self-defence last year when he charged myself and three of my students. He was in poor condition and lions had mauled him.

So I shot him at 5 paces with a 600 grain NF CNS. The bullet passed through his brain/scull, down the side of his neck, broke the spine at T 2, passed through the left lung and I recovered it in the rumen.

It was the quickest kill I have ever seen. The bull dropped to the shot with his eyes open and did not even blink again. As instantaneous a death as I have ever seen.

What impressed me is the size on the hole in his scull. It is easily big enough for me to stick my thumb into it.

Ballistically, the .577 should outperform the .505 on buffalo given similar bullets and shot placement – because of a greater frontal surface area, bigger would channels etc etc – BUT only if it can be shot as well and as accurately.

Remember a 286 grain .366 bullet from a 9,3 x 62 mm through the top of the heart kills a buff quicker than a 750 grainer in the guts – simple as that.

quote:

With buffalo – shot placement is a lot more important than calibre.

Oh dear!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 280AI:
(Hope to not take this off topic) Saeed, from your experience what is your favourite first shot placement on a Buffalo? Diagram would be useful.

I think we tend to over complicate things when it comes to hunting and where to shoot animals.

I remember someone came up with something called THE PAY LINE.

In which he had two lines cross the body of an animal.

One horizontal and one vertical.

That was such a load of bloody rubbish, like many aiming points one sees published.

The major organs are in the middle of the chest. Such as the heart and the arteries at the top of it.

I aim for that, regardless of the position of the buffalo - even directly from the rear end.

If they are close, I shoot them in the head or neck.

Head shooting a buffalo is not very difficult.

Just imagine a straight line joining the two ear holes, and aim to break it.

I have used this very simple system to shoot buffalo from every imaginable angle, including hitting then in the tail!

The pay line was Lou Hallamore as described in In the Salt, as I recall.

quote:

Originally posted by AFRICAN LEADWOOD:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 280AI:
(Hope to not take this off topic) Saeed, from your experience what is your favourite first shot placement on a Buffalo? Diagram would be useful.

I think we tend to over complicate things when it comes to hunting and where to shoot animals.

I remember someone came up with something called THE PAY LINE.

In which he had two lines cross the body of an animal.

One horizontal and one vertical.

That was such a load of bloody rubbish, like many aiming points one sees published.

The major organs are in the middle of the chest. Such as the heart and the arteries at the top of it.

I aim for that, regardless of the position of the buffalo - even directly from the rear end.

If they are close, I shoot them in the head or neck.

Head shooting a buffalo is not very difficult.

Just imagine a straight line joining the two ear holes, and aim to break it.

I have used this very simple system to shoot buffalo from every imaginable angle, including hitting then in the tail!

The pay line was Lou Hallamore as described in In the Salt, as I recall.

Whoever it was, it made no sense whatsoever.

It reminds me of the targets of animals they have in Europe where a concentric circle is placed over the animal's heart, and one has to hit within that circle to scope points.

I was in Sweden and was invited to one of these shoots.

I killed all of the animals I shot at, but scored nothing!!

Head and neck shots gets you zero.

The guy scoring the targets did not speak English very well.

"Why do I get no score?"
"No"

"But the animal is dead"
"Yes"

"So why do I not get 100 points?"
"No"

It went on like that, with everyone standing around laughing.

I showed him videos on my phone of shooting buffalo in the head and dropping them dead.

He asked what caliber I was using, and told him a 375/404 through an interpreter.

I kept hearing the word "Canon" several times.

Then everyone burst out laughing.

Apparently, according to him, to kill any animal shot anywhere outside that printed circle one has to use a canon!


And so it was with the PAY LINE.

Wasn't him who also said one has to measure the exact distance from a leopard bait to the hide so hunters do not miss??

Good thing is that my PH is not like that.

We have an agreement that we should get as close to an animal as we could, and whenever it is clear, he should put the shooting sticks up.

One day we followed an eland bull for quite a while, then saw him standing under a tree very, very far away across an empty plain.

As we got closer - about half a mile!! He started getting fidgety, looking straight at us.

At about half a K, he put the shooting sticks down.

I said "that is bloody miles away!!"

He said "you just have to aim a bit high"

I did. And we got our eland.

I have not stopped teasing him about that one.

"What sort of a professional hunters stops half a K away and says to his client "aim a bit high"?"

"I don't know why you are complaining. You wanted to shoot an eland. I got you to shoot an eland. You keep telling me that if you can see it, you can hit it. And you did. Anyway, I saw you do the same thing in South Africa across that valley. Bloody hell, that was even further than this one!"

Regardless of caliber, I think it is very important that the shooter be familiar with, and have confidence in the rifle.

That is why I go to the hassle and expense of always using my own rifle when on any hunt.

Half the fun, IMO, is racking up the one-shot kills with a particular rifle over the decades.

BH63

Just my opinion but I think any cartridge that is legal for Buffalo with proper bullets, will kill buffalo if the shooter puts the bullet in the right place to reach the vitals, or the central nervous system.

Certainly the larger legal chamberings have an advantage in a very close miss of the CNS, or brain or heart/lung targets.

It all boils down to bullet construction and placement! With that thought In my mind just put the proper bullet in the right place, and you got yourself a buffalo!

...............Simple to say, but not always easy to do!

.......................................................................

One thing Tony Sanchez stressed, is that a .375 is a perfectly fine caliber for killing ellie and buff in more open terrain situations, in thick cover you really should use the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately.

BH63

I double checked my stats on Tony Sanchez's buff
kills and this was what I found.


Buffalo shot personally by TS over 1400

When you add in the number of buff shot by his clients as well he was at 1999.

That's a lot of experience IMO.

BTW. Just got back from the range. I hadn't shot my .416 Rem Mag (Mod 70 Win Safari Express) since my insurance shot on a buffalo in Zim last year.

First shot was at 50 yds, was about 1/2" right of the exact center of the bullseye.

My second shot was at 100 yds, and it was about 1" right of the exact center of the bullseye.

I just love how that rifle holds its sight-in adjustments.

BH63