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I had the following sent to me and dont quite know what to make of it. I will leave you all to your own thoughts: "I got an email forwarded to me where Linda Venter of SCI Africa sent out the newspaper article about Dawies arraignment. It was interesting who had contacted her wanting news. Perhaps you should post the list on AR. Larry Rudolph: Kevin Anderson: Linda Venter: Joe Hosmer: Paul D Babaz: John Whipple: Bill Moritz: Ed Curtis: Bruce Eavenson: Libby Grimes: John Boretsky: Abigail Day: Nelson Freeman: Norbert Ullmann SCIREGREPEUR: SCI-USA-Monson, W&N: Matthew Eckert: George Pangeti: Rick Parsons: As I said I dont quite know what to make of it. Just showing interest in this affair dosnt mean someone is involved. Although, many of you will recognize some if not all the names on the list. Happiness is a warm gun | ||
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Mike, Very interesting list indeed! Any idea which one of them was "hunting" rhinos with Out of Africa and being charged pittance because they could not take the horn with them? I bet there are a few character's having sleepless nights right now. I cannot say I have any sympathy with them at all though. | |||
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I know one of the nmaes on the list, he was the president of our local chapter of SCI and is now part of the National SCI. I do not think he ever hunted any rhinos because he never bragged about it. But that is all I can say about it. I was never impressed by OOA even when I talked to them years ago before their trouble came to light. At a local SCI banquet they were there but were represent by a woman who was a US citizen and claimed to be a PH for them also. The biggest thing was we did not want to go all the way to Africa and hunt with someone who was not from there. Good Hunting, | |||
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If you have any old brochures of OoA lying around from the last 6-8 yrs, you can see many of those names listed with their photo's as clients----posing with their game that they shot. do you think they are worried that U.S. Fish & Wildlife is going to be knocking on their door? nothin sweeter than the smell of fresh blood on your hunting boots | |||
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Out Of Africa would NEVER have survived all the negative publicity if they did not have a lot of support from the higher echlon of SCI. I am almost certain, as well, that they have some high connections in both Zimbabwe and South Africa. And I am not holding my breath what might happen when the case comes to court. They have been given an extraordinary long time to be tried. | |||
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Any SCI officer who ever went 'hunting' with Out of Africa is a suspect in my opinion. Unfortunately, that includes hundreds of them. Out of Africa donated thousands and thousands of dollars worth of hunts to every SCI chapter in the world for many years. Every local chapter in the US and Europe is touched by this unprecedented scandal. I think every person who protected and promoted Out of Africa over the years is just as guilty of the carnage and slaughter of the rhinos as the Triads who buy the horns. ~Alan Cheers, ~ Alan Life Member NRA Life Member SCI email: editorusa(@)africanxmag(dot)com African Expedition Magazine: http://www.africanxmag.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alan.p.bunn Twitter: http://twitter.com/EditorUSA Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. ~Keller To be persuasive we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; to be credible we must be truthful. ~ Murrow | |||
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The latest African Hunter Magazine that came today has an editorial by Ira Larivers about OOAA and Dawie. The interest being taken by international publications and the international news media regarding this despicable situation might finally be working! | |||
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http://www.newstime.co.za/Sout...ouse%E2%80%9D/11742/
http://www.mg.co.za/article/20...lp-to-catch-poachers
http://www.timeslive.co.za/loc...poachers-out-on-bail
Gee, I wonder if any of these people will cooperate with prosecutors or try to cut deals to reduce their penalties? No telling who they will snare when all is said and done. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Maybe this all means I can show my membership card and dart a Rhino for free!!! | |||
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Mike Smith, Could you further explain the "list" that was sent to you. From your post it is not clear if the folks on the list requested information from Linda Carter or are these names somehow connected with illegal hunting with Out of Africa. I know one of these fellows very well and he works for SCI as some "High Holy" dealing with Operators and PH's. | |||
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The rats maybe abandoning the ship??? Mike | |||
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I am confused. It appears from the original post and several other add on posts that attempts are being made to cast suspicion upon those on the list simply because they asked someone for news???? Does that mean that everyone here on AR asking for news and updates on this ongoing story are somehow under suspicion too? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Howard, My understanding is that all those on the list have had dealings with Out of Africa, hence their requests for information. Personally, I would be suspicious of anyone who is on the SCI board and having hunted with Out of Africa. But, that is only my own opinion. | |||
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George Pangeti is in a ticklish possition ...he is: Chairman of the Zimbabwe National Parks Board: Director, Out Of Africa Safaris: Safari Club International's Africa Representitive... When you talk about conflict of interest...a) no wonder he is following the case closely and b) no wonder those who would like his juicy post in Zim are circling like a flock of vultures | |||
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Add another name to the my blacklist of names to never trust! | |||
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http://mmacja.org/index.php?pa...F2-8B86-767DC090192A I found this & you can see his photo there as well. I wonder if the Missouri Courts Hall of Fame people know about this OOA fiasco! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Libby Grimes runs the SCI convention. She was pissed when Usangu got whacked. Jeff | |||
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Bloody hell! And we all know what Usangu stood for. It seems everyone involved in the running of SCI has gotten their noses stuck where they should never have been! | |||
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I must be missing something. Why would Linda Venter be part of this list when she is the one who sent out the newspaper article in the first place. Why would she be contacting herself?
Who the hell is Linda Carter, besides being Wonderwoman? | |||
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What Howard said. I know one of the individuals on this 'list' and yes he once hunted with OoA in RSA. He hunted plains game 10 years ago long before they had the reputation (probably deserved) they have now. That he and some of the others inquired about news on the recent developments is now being thrown out here to make them guilty of rhino poaching or something with the USFW soon to be knocking on their door? Obviously some folks have their minds made up no matter what. Apparently we are to automatically believe that all SCI members and all former clients of OaA are evil poachers. And nope, I've never hunted with OaA and obviously wouldn't. About 11 years ago I once bid on one of their offerings at an SCI auction....guess I need to start losing sleep at night, I'm probably on the USF&W watch list. FWIW, my friend is quite private about his email address, I'm sure he really appreciates having it posted here on this bully pulpit. | |||
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This is pure speculation but I'd suspect that some people, including and perhaps especially, SCI members are worried that they might have (possibly) unknowingly broken the rules and are now concerned they might be investigated for Lacey Act violations. The Lacey Act is immensely powerful, penalties can be extremely severe and it doesn't take much at all for an American citizen to break it. As has been said, there are probably a fair number of very worried people out there just now. | |||
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I think people who need to be worried should be. ~Ann | |||
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I wonder what excuse SCI will come up with this time for not banning OOA. 465H&H | |||
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For some ambitious prosecutor, this case could be a career-maker. http://www.swradioafrica.com/n...910/mohadi220910.htm
SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Howard & Matt I respect the loyalty to friends and the commitment to justice & rule of law. The real issues here are as follows 1 OOA are proven to be involved in illegal activities for a long time 2 SCI top echelons have been protecting OOA for a long time 3 SCI top echelons have been getting favours from OOA for a long time 4 Many SCI officials have been hunting with OOA & possibly violated Lacey act unknowingly 5 This is by far the worst poaching scandal in history - far bigger than tiger or elephant or rhino poaching in India or Africa in the past. 6 If this was a pedophile case or a case of trafficking in women, every single individual linked to the group would be a suspect and would have their image tarnished. 7 Anyone one who supported or was close to OOA or Kevin Anderson and his group is guilty of not acting in the interest of hunters and of legal hunting. This is the consequence of keeping quiet when you know or should know of wrong doing happening under your nose. Protecting ones family & friends is a noble trait that has its risks and consequences. Responsibility to the greater public is not negotiable under any circumstances. Individual rights are superseded by this overall responsibility & rights of the rest of the people. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I posted on another thread if anyone had an SCI record book handy, but never mind... It was to look up someone who I think may have registered "bought" taxidermy antlers and registered it in SCI record books...this someone is already ethically challenged and I'm about through with SCI! And no, I will not out them- too much trouble... If I see them in person, I'll quietly remind them of how much of an idiot they really are and how they bought their way into SCI with their pocket book and their big egos resulting from their small male organ ... Is the leadership team with Dallas Safari Club any more honest/ethical or are some of them known to be involved in any scandal or corruption or poaching? | |||
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Folks if you read my post you will see quotes around what was sent to me. As I said I really dont know what to make of it. You will also see my statement that asking for information or being interested in this affair does not mean someone is involved. I am trying to make as much sense out of this as anyone. I do think OOA is into it up to their necks. Anyone else wants to speculate on the list and the names that is up to them. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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Matt, You are right that I shouldnt have put the emails out there. I actually tried to fix it after I posted the cut and paste. I was unable to either edit or delete the post at that point due to some ongoing computer problems. For that part I will take the hit. That said I am still trying to make sense out of it all. Why would someone send ths to me and not post it themselves? Why also would everyoen automatically assume anyone on the list was guilty if there is now proof at this point? I also made sure that I said as much. As far as these guys not appreciating thei emails out ther all I can say is sorry for my part of that. However whomever sent this to me and others I am sure all have complete access to this info. It would appear to be fairly public information even if it was not intended as such. Once an email starts circulaiting unless specifically marked to undisclosed recipients it will show every email address in the chain. I was obviously prett easy for the sender to find it. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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I am an SCI Member and I am not worried. Steve that's painting with a real wide brush to suggest "especially SCI Members are worried" Larry Sellers SCI Life Member
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Larry, I might not have made myself clear on that and my apologies if I made it sound like all SCI members were dodgy..... that certainly wasn't my intention. My logic was that the company made an immense number of hunt donations to SCI over the years. I think you'll find that they donated hunts to individual Chapters as well as multiple hunts to the convention. My guess would be that they probably donated more separate hunts in any given year than any other company. If they didn't donate the most, they'll have been very close to it. There's also the possibility of other hunts being donated to individuals on a private basis...... and I wouldn't be surprised if that had happened as well. Therefore, with the track record of that particular company, any hunter who booked any of those hunts could, and perhaps should, be concerned that they might have broken a game law or two during their hunts (almost certainlly without knowing it) and consequently breached the Lacey Act. I appreciate that the Lacey Act violations will probably only be investigated if the USF&WS are involved in the investigation and they almost certainly will be......... and as we all know, the USF&WS are the biggest bunch of anti hunting bastards in the world and I reckon they'll be on this like a starving dog on a bone. | |||
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I am not expressing loyalty to friends are commitment to rule of law etc. Nor do I have anyway of knowing or basis of forming an opinion on how big or bad this poaching operation might be. I do wonder just how big it could be, comparatively speaking, when my understanding is that rhino numbers today are a fraction of what they where when they were virtually poached off the continent. I simply find it silly to attempt to cast one in a negative light simply because said person works in the companies home office and requests information from a branch office located where a breaking story is taking place. Seems a quite normal, logical, natural action to take. Requesting information, being interested, and being curious are in no way indications of guilt or innocence. Everyone here on this thread and others on this topic are doing the same thing. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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My take away from this drive by shooting is never, ever send an email to Linda Ventner of SCI Africa and ask her ANYTHING, as she apparently is quick to give up to other people the names and email addresses of those she had been in contact with her for whatever reason. Next thing you know any confidentialty is out the window and the names/emails are posted for the court of Accurate Reloading to do it's drive by court on. People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf | |||
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One other question I have....how many federal Lacey Act cases has the USF&W made on US clients of OoA over the past 10 years? People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand at the ready to do violence on their behalf | |||
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Matt now it is my turn. I dont know Linda Ventner other than by name and have never even talked to her as far as I know. You cant assume that she was the breach of confidntiality. Anyone, anywhere in the chain of forwarded emails could have done it. That could be numerous folks who were not supposed to have it originally. It takes special effort to make any email confidential as to all the recipients. My brother in law educated me on this awhile back since I am not overlly computer literate. Point is we will never know where in the chain and how far removed from the original this occured. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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What difference would this make? Everyone on that list can be Googled, and information about them is freely available, especially those on social website. This does not change the argument that SCI management has been in bed with Out of Africa for a very long time. And now we are all reaping those benefit I just got their flier for the next convention, and one of their guests is The Cable Guy! What the hell has he got to do with hunting? | |||
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Mike: I do know Linda Venter and six other people on that list, and I am positive that she and the other six have no ties -- financial, political, or otherwise -- to the outlaws under discussion. Saeed: I did Google everyone on the list and here is what I found: SCI OFFICERS Larry Rudolph: President Kevin Anderson: President-elect John Whipple: Deputy president-elect Bruce Eavenson: Corporate secretary Joe Hosmer: Corporate treasurer Paul D Babaz: Vice president Norbert Ullmann International director/ Germany Ed Curtis: Director at large John Boretsky: Guides & Outifitters Committee chairman George Pangeti: SCIF Africa program director Abigail Day: London Chapter president SCI-USA-Monson, W&N: John Monson SCI past president SCI STAFF Rick Parsons: Retired Washington office director Bill Moritz: Executive director Libby Grimes: Convention director Matthew Eckert: Conservation director Nelson Freeman: Media director Linda Venter: Africa office manager Judging only from the information Mike provided at the top of this thread, SCI's Africa office transmitted a newspaper article and the list of recipients (and the sender) went out with the article. Mike is correct that it takes special effort to make an email confidential. If SCI staff and officers were asking for information about this breaking news story because they may somehow be personally involved in this scandal I would find it more "interesting" and "suspicious" if the recipients were NOT listed. Shakari: As with close to 50,000 other hunters around the world, I am an SCI member and have never met the Groenewalds, the Toets or anyone else accused in that poaching ring, let alone supported or hunted with them. To paint all SCI members with such a broad brush is unfair. Bill Quimby | |||
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Bill, I think Steve has stated, repeatedly, that he sees absolutely nothing wrong with SCI members. The problem is with the management of SCI. Who have protected Out of Afric and its owners, despite repeated accusations from many courters that they have been breaking laws in several countries. Several memebers of this forum have stated that the are NOT comfortable with SCI's action that they have decided not to renew their membership. I have been a Life Member of SCI for many years. And I am finding it increasingly difficult to defend some of SCI's actions. Specially teh actions of their so called "ethics" committee. | |||
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Bill, You need to re-read my posts. That isn't what I said my friend..... in fact, I said the direct opposite. As I said previously, we shouldn't use this as an excuse for a witch hunt of ordinary SCI members who I'm sure are fine upstanding citizens..... and from my experience, good hunters and good company. SCI is a CORPORATION. Its ordinary members have absolutely no say whatsover. New office bearers can only come on board at the initiative of existing directors, with ordinary members having absolutely no say in that either. In the end, the "upper echelon" is a power unto itself, and the members merely pawns. It is not by any definition an ASSOCIATION of like minded members. You can read their by-laws in this regard here: http://www.scifirstforhunters....gust%2027%202010.pdf. As I see it, some of the upper echelons must be involved simply because OoA were never kicked out or even reprimanded, despite no end of complaints about them. My other point was that the company has for many years been a serious donator and those hunts will have been bought by members who may have unknowingly been party to the breaking of game laws etc and it's THOSE members and perhaps some of the upper echelon members who might have previously turned a blind eye to complaints about OoA (for whatever reason! ) that I believe should be concerned. | |||
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