Dear friends from Europe,
How do you view tipping on hunts? How do you customerily handle tipping? What do you think about when you tip?
Thanks

In France, at least in restaurants, a service charge of 15% is already included in the price on the menu. This is distributed to the employees. A "tip" is above and beyond this. I have lunch in a restaurant in Paris every day and one does not add any additional "tip" for everyday meals. If you are out for dinner and for some reason you find the service exceptional you might throw in 5 or 10 euros to show your added appreciation on a 150 or 200 Euro tab. When I take a taxi I usually round up to the next number a couple of euros higher then what is on the meter and that is the tip; one is not really expected.

This is of course completely different from the US practice and I would guess that the French, when abroad, find themselves wondering what to give, why isn't it included in the price if the personnel need it to live, and why should one tip if the service is bad or just ho-hum. Americans have the reputation of "excessive" tipping.

I realize I haven't answered directly the question. But on another post a few days ago some people remarked that Jerome Latrive (who is French) included in his hunt estimates in Tanzania the amounts to be tipped, and of course many Americans thought this to be outrageous. For the French this is understandable since they would probably give nothing on a high price item, whatever it might be, unless they know what is expected in advance. If Latrive puts in amounts in those estimates they are probably derived from what Americans have generally left in previous hunts, not on any French traditions.

I can't claim to represent Europe as such, but I do see differences between Europe and the US in terms of tipping. Some of those differences probably also have an effect on hunting tips.

In the US, it seems to be customary that certain service providers are only paid through whatever tips the customer sees fit to leave. Waiting in restaurants is the standard example, and as a consequence of that, US restaurant prices contain a "hidden" extra charge of commonly 10-15% (assuming you were not terribly unhappy with the service you received). That is practically unheard of in Europe. A waitress will be paid a regular salary, and tips will commonly be much lower than 10-15%. Often tips round up to next nearest number of 1s, 10s or 100s - as the customer sees fit.

The US hunter seems to go to Africa with the expectation from home of a reasonable tip to be in the 10-15% area of some base figure - be it daily rates, full costs or whatever. Since the US hunters normally make up the large majority of hunters in Africa, this has almost become an unspoken standard - safari staff practically expects a tip, and that is the baseline... (Stories about tipping being discretionary, are largely that: stories. Tipping has become so ingrained, that everybody *expects* a tip, and is disappointed should it not materialize).

I have heard of European hunters in Africa not tipping at all, but I guess that would be the exception. Even in European hunting, it is common to pay your guide (PH equivalent) a tip, in particular if the hunt went well. So by far most European hunters will also tip when they go to Africa. It is another matter, whether they appreciate the need for 10-15% (of whatever base sum) as a tip? I suspect they will (or might) if they have a lot of contact to US hunting - e.g. via AR, magazines, books or whatever. I would not be surprised if the "common" (as opposed to well heeled or even rich) European hunter might tip less than the 10-15%, though.

- mike

So, does the European pay less (daily rate, trophy fees) for the same hunt than his American counterpart?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
So, does the European pay less (daily rate, trophy fees) for the same hunt than his American counterpart?
Peter.

In general no. It depends a bit on how the hunts are sold, which countries are targeted, and (in particular) how currencies move.

Some hunting countries traditionally recruited their hunters from specific countries. E.g. Namibia for a long time predominantly had German speaking customers (although that has changed in the last 5-10 years), West Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa recruited a lot of its hunters from France etc.

Hunts sold in Europe will often (but not always) be listed in Euro. Now that the US$ is weak, the Euro prices don't look like much of a bargain. In days past, the balance went the other way.

- mike

In camp on the Zambezi one evening, after walking all day after a wounded animal (we finally found it thank the Lord; that's another tale), I had a "gentleman" hunter from down under go on and on at the supper table how we Americans had completely cocked up the whole tipping situation. All other interactions with this guy were pleasant and entertaining, but on that night, if I hadn't been so tired, I would have garroted the son of a bitch.

My pretty much grown kids were home for the weekend and they said that 20% is "normal" for "normal" service now in the states. I told them they were wasting their money and that I'd never heard that before. They don't have that much money to be throwing around in the first place.

Not trying to hijack the thread. I think we Americans are just so scared of offending anyone that we try to throw money at the situation, and, as evidenced by the PC generation that my kids are a part of, it's only going to get worse.

I have a couple of thoughts on tipping of wait staff. I was not a fan of tipping until I went to the Bahamas where the gratuity was included in every meal. The wait staff generally we unattentive and uncaring and yet, I was forced to tip them.

So, I prefer it to be optional and for me it is optional. I am not fearful of not tipping. However, I feel blessed that I can eat out so I tend to tip around 20%. That amount generally is small to me, but not to the person who is working hard to make a living and to see that I enjoy myself.

Tipping and the demands for tips has gone crazy.

We Americans are the worst as far as I am concerned and responseable for driving up tipping expectations.

Expectations be damned, I'm still from the old school. It'll be a cold day where it's hot when I tip 20%. Good or bad service! I'd rather have bad service and not tip,

Do Americans tip better in Africa than they do in Canada? When I talk to my guide and outfitter friends about tips they tell a somewhat different story than I read about on the internet. Either I have to believe that clients knock a zero off their tips when they go north instead of south, or be forced to believe that not everything on the net is as it seems.

This all reminds me of the time I went to the Dominican Republic. After I paid the Cabbie for the ride to the hotel, and tipped him, he gave me his card and told me to tell "other people like me" about him.

I had no idea what he meant and assumed he meant white. Well after getting settled at the hotel I noticed that the majority of the guests at the hotel were European.

The Cabbie was telling me to give the card to other Americans.

I am not well traveled and certainly am not in a position to make judgements about the choices of others, but on my first trip to Africa (Namibia) my PH went out of his way to accomodate a bad injury I had when I got there, responded politely to a few hundred boring questions that I asked about the history of Namibia and in general acted like a motivated professional. For that kind of hard work I am always willing to say "thanks" in a meaningful way, which means money. Those guys are trying to make a living and if they do solid work I don't mind rewarding it.

Life is too short for me to be selfish about those last few dollars. (not that they are worth all that much anymore.)

Josh

The PH ought to be pricing the hunts to make a living on and not be relying on tips to make ends meet. A tip is a bonus.

The other post, mentioned above, on another thread didn't pass the sniff test.

Could one consider some of the things left behind a tip too? Cigarettes, candy, clothes and who knows what else?

Robert

Here in Norway and Denmark tipping is normally included in the price at all eting and drinking plases!!if you wanna tip you do it !have traveled many times to Rsa and i must say that hunting at places where there are many american hunters it if pretty expencive to tip the staf-ph and others comparing to outfitters that dont have so many american clients!!i always tip all staff but there is a limit how many money i wanna spend!

quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
So, does the European pay less (daily rate, trophy fees) for the same hunt than his American counterpart?
Peter.

I know several outfitters who have two set of prices. One for Us hunters and one for others.
As long as hunters are willing to pay, then why change that.
I am going to Zimbabwe in august and is paying 5300 USd for 7 days 1:1 and 2500 Usd for a buffalo. The outfitter have european clints mostly. Can you get a buffalo hunt in Us for that kind of money?
As for the tipping, US hunters only have themselves to blame for driving the tipping to the sky.
500-600 USd is still a lot of money in thoes part of the world

Tipping, by my opinion is a special appreciation/satisfaction display for the received services.

The keyword in the phrase above is "special". Tipping is a premium. In my everyday work as employee, I receive a monthly salary and a yearly bonus based on production results of the company. But this bonus is not 100% guaranteed.

The euros or dollars that I pay for a hunt should cover adequately all the costs, workers and employees salaries included.

Anything else that I'll give as tip must be justified by my very happy mind disposition at the end of the hunt because, for example, I had something that was not included and written in the contract, or I saw an exceptional diligence to make me have success in the hunt also when contrary conditions are.

No added value (diligence) in the work, no premium (tippping).

Probably this disposition is dued also to the exceptional situation that we have in Italy.
It is some year that there are too much beggars, also young, strong and in good health. They are gipsy, albanese, romanian. It is easier for them to look fo the charity of the people, or worse become little but violent delinquent, than work. No value in giving to them money.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodam:
I know several outfitters who have two set of prices. One for Us hunters and one for others.
As long as hunters are willing to pay, then why change that.
I am going to Zimbabwe in august and is paying 5300 USd for 7 days 1:1 and 2500 Usd for a buffalo. The outfitter have european clints mostly. Can you get a buffalo hunt in Us for that kind of money?
As for the tipping, US hunters only have themselves to blame for driving the tipping to the sky.
500-600 USd is still a lot of money in thoes part of the world

It does indeed happen that there are different hunt prices advertized in different markets. It is all about what the market will take, I guess.

Africa is full of "destination dependent" charges - hotel accommodation, wilderness trips, taxidermy, hunting, you name it... But the big difference in prices is found more between "African nationals" (or even locals) and "stinking rich tourists, who can afford to pay any price" (I'm probably exaggerating *just* a bit here... ).

It has not been impossible in the past, to try to find a deal on an African hunt by shopping on different continents. Rodam seems to have landed a pretty good deal on his daily rates for a short buffalo hunt, the trophy fee seems to be in line with what major Zim players (e.g. HHK) charge.

But as we all know, there are many facets to booking a hunt: what area are you booking in, who is your operator, is he capable of delivering on the ground, can he operate camp and vehicles in spite of chronic shortages, can he get trophies exported, does he hunt on confiscated land, what game does he have available etc etc. Sadly a hunt is not just a hunt. Most of us tend to book with the bigger players in Zim to make sure we avoid such problems, and I doubt you'll find much difference in prices offered by them in Europe vs. in the US.

It is possible to land in a hunting camp with other customers and find differences in prices paid. The most common case I have run into, is if the other party in camp booked hunts in South Africa. I have a feeling some hunts are sold cheaper in that market. But whether those clients get the choice of where and when to go, or wehther they are offered hunts that could not be sold at full price in the US and Europe, I don't know?

Regarding the issue of tipping: I find it interesting that pretty much all Europeans who have responded to this thread have basically made the same point about tipping. Europeans are used to a price containing all expenses (including staff's wages), and therefore any tip on top of the base hunt price is a bonus, which should be given at the hunter's discretion and at a level the hunter feels he can afford. There is no "hidden number" he has to live up to.

It just goes to show the differences in culture between the US and Europe with respect to tipping. Interesting to observe, little point in discussing who is "right" and who is "wrong".

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by Rodam:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
So, does the European pay less (daily rate, trophy fees) for the same hunt than his American counterpart?
Peter.

I know several outfitters who have two set of prices. One for Us hunters and one for others.
As long as hunters are willing to pay, then why change that.
I am going to Zimbabwe in august and is paying 5300 USd for 7 days 1:1 and 2500 Usd for a buffalo. The outfitter have european clints mostly. Can you get a buffalo hunt in Us for that kind of money?
As for the tipping, US hunters only have themselves to blame for driving the tipping to the sky.
500-600 USd is still a lot of money in thoes part of the world

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out IF they could get more money for their hunt they WOULD.

This reminds me of a lot of the Canadians and Europeans I see on vacation here in the States. They book some dumpy hotel or condo 4-10 blocks from the ocean or outside the city and are so proud of the "deal" they got.

I'll be staying on the beach, in the heart of the city, and not booking some bargain basement safari thank you very much. Most Americans get far less vacation time and when they vacation they do it right.

Interesting comments from Geoff and I have to agree. I'm amazed at how much vacation time Europeans get...and they only work 1/2 days anyway.

GeoffM24!

Take a look at http://www.reibenwein.com/

in video Zimbabwe and tell me if this is what you call a "Dump"
If so I am happy to stay in a dump, and go hunting twice instead like you to spend all the money on a 5* lodge. For me the hunt is the main thing.
We will talk again when I get back.

So it has come to the point where we point fingers at our partners in this international community?? That seems a pity - all the more so, because it seems to have been started by the inexperienced comments of one dumbfuck...

- mike

quote:
This reminds me of a lot of the Canadians and Europeans I see on vacation here in the States. They book some dumpy hotel or condo 4-10 blocks from the ocean or outside the city and are so proud of the "deal" they got.

I'll be staying on the beach, in the heart of the city, and not booking some bargain basement safari thank you very much. Most Americans get far less vacation time and when they vacation they do it right.[/QUOTE]

What a bloody upnose attitude

Different cultures, different ways.
As a blue collar guy I could not dream of adding 10% tip to my safari costs, whatsoever.

I tip when I feel it right as a bonus for exellent service, but the amount will always mirror what I can afford, and not what somebody else think or mean is a decent standard.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist

but it might help though, turn the attitude down a few steps.

best regards

peter

I hope that some of you guys don't mind me pointing out that there are a few misapprehensions/inaccuracies here.

Firstly, Europe isn't a country..... in fact, it's not even a continent, it's a continent and a few islands. On that continent and those islands there are quite lot of different countries and each country has it's own culture and they're extremely diverse in hunting and many other terms. The French tipping culture for example is very different to the German one and both are different to the British tipping (and other) culture.

Another misapprehension is that the PH sets the prices. Most PHs are employed and work on a per hunting day basis and believe me, the usual daily rate ain't exactly high.

Yet another misapprehension is that the Americans seem to think they're the biggest tippers........ where is that written in stone I wonder? From my experience, I can think of more than one country where the hunters might tip higher than Americans on average.

Surely one should take the attitude of 'when in Rome' - certainly one shouldn't overtip, but if a tip is traditional, then one should consider it a part of the deal. If you want to ensure you don't overtip, ask your outfitter what you should expect beforehand.

The one thing that I haven't seen mentioned here, is that equally important to the tip, is the words of thanks. You'd be suprised how much an African or even a whie PH appreciates a few words of thanks to show you've noticed what he does for you..........

Hope I haven't offended anyone with those words....

quote:

Originally posted by Rodam:
GeoffM24!

Take a look at http://www.reibenwein.com/

in video Zimbabwe and tell me if this is what you call a "Dump"
If so I am happy to stay in a dump, and go hunting twice instead like you to spend all the money on a 5* lodge. For me the hunt is the main thing.
We will talk again when I get back.

Do a search of the web and this site for Black Eagle Safaris and see what you come up with, almost nothing. Now if this was really an outstanding hunting camp at a price 15-20% less then typical don't you think people would be using them? I have no doubt you will find either add on charges bringing the price up to where everyone else is or below average service and accommodations. This is all assuming Zim doesn't collapse which is also a factor in low prices across the entire country. You get what you pay for.

quote:

Surely one should take the attitude of 'when in Rome' - certainly one shouldn't overtip, but if a tip is traditional, then one should consider it a part of the deal. If you want to ensure you don't overtip, ask your outfitter what you should expect beforehand.

Is the outfitter really an unbiased observer?

Hes the guy who employs the staff and he knows that you're the guy buying the package. He'll know what the norm is and he'll know that if he tells you too large a sum, you'll book elsewhere. - So I'd say he's probably the best guy to ask. - Note I said the outfitter and not the agent.

In Australia tipping used to be almost unheard of (not sure how much that has changed, it's been a while) so that would explain the attitude of the hunter from down under.

I can even remember cabbies in Aus' giving me back the tip I had handed over, saying something like "don't need that mate, you've paid the fare".

Personally I dislike the US tipping culture where 15-20% tip is assumed just for showing up. So what do you give for really good service 30%? 40%?
Where does it become absurd?

I'd be much happier if the "minimum" was included in the price and the tip was truely meant for special service.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Hes the guy who employs the staff and he knows that you're the guy buying the package. He'll know what the norm is and he'll know that if he tells you too large a sum, you'll book elsewhere. - So I'd say he's probably the best guy to ask. - Note I said the outfitter and not the agent.

On the flip side, he can offset his costs by transitioning the staff's compensation from wages that he pays to tips that are provided by the clients.

What better way to establish this transition than by telling the clients that it is expected.

Don't you think that attitude smacks a little of persecution complex?

For some reason, some hunters seem to think that everyone in the hunting industry is out to milk them. - All the vast majority want to do is deliver a good quality product and earn a fair living and nothing more....... but hey, it's your hunt and your money, so tip whatever you like.......

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Don't you think that attitude smacks a little of persecution complex?

No I don't. I haven't been to Africa yet, when I go next year, I'll do exactly what you say. I was just pointing out none of the parties that are involved in the process are unaffected by the decision.

What's your take on outfitters that include tips as a line item in hunt? Don't you think they're doing what I suggested?

UKhunter is correct when it comes to us Aussies. We have no idea how to tip. It's not part of our culture.

A small and elite group of Aussies know how to tip and do tip. The rest of us are clueless. I can only guess it comes from our convict/settler history where everyone was on the same social level, battling to survive.

I know a lot of Aussies have the attitude that if you need a tip to survive then you need to get a better paying job.

Tipping is one of those cultural nuances that make the world a more interesting place.

Just some general observations on the subject.

I have never been to Africa, probably never will go, I have hunted with guides/outfitters in the U.S. and Canada and operate my own Guided hunt operation in far west Texas.

The subject of tipping and whether it should be done at some Magical % of the cost of the hunt, keeps showing up on the various forums every couple of months.

One item constantly being thrown in that to me is becoming a raw spot, is the references to or comparisons between the wait staff at a club/bar/hotel/restaruant, etc. and guides/outfitters/Ph's/camp staff in hunting and fishing camps.

I am really beginning to have a difficult time understanding how such a comparison can be made.

It is like comparing a grape to a watermelon in terms of the services rendered.

Yes, people that work in clubs/bars etc. in the U.S. have for years been notoriously under paid and they do depend on tips for a major portion of their income.

But, they only deal with their customers over a relatively short period of time often an hour more or less.

Also they are not outside in the heat/cold/rain/dust dealing with said customers normally, nor are they having to track down the goods they are handling for their customers.

Before I get to far off the wall with that rant, my opinion on tips and tipping is as follows.


Tips are tokens of appreciation for a job well done.

If a client wants to tip a member of the hunt staff, great. If not, that is fine too.

The hunt should be conducted professionally with NO thought about a tip or the size of it even being considered by any member of the hunt staff.

People that go into the guiding/outfitting business planning on making most of their money from their clients tips, need to get out of the business.

Some people are overly generous tippers, some people just do not tip for any reason.

Tipping by a client is an individual concept and is based on a set of standards individual to each client.

Some are going to tip for effort given, while others will only tip based on success obtained.

Good guides/Outfitters are or should put forth the same effort for all their clients and NOT try to figure out which client MAY give the biggest tip and just cater to them.

If I get a tip after a hunt, I am grateful, if I don't that is fine also.

If myself or any other guide/outfitter feels like they are not making enough money without the tips, raise the price of the hunt, simple concept.

Personally, I prefer a small tip from a client thast I am pretty sure can't really afford it, than a larger one from someone that has more money than sense and is trying to impress other folks.

I have had clients that a 12 pack of beer was all they could afford as a tip and I got a lot of pleasure out of that 12 pack.

The whole tipping game is getting out of hand with some folks and it causes other folks to wonder about if what their concept of tipping is "within Market Standards"?

Quit worrying about it.

Don't worry about percentages, if you want to give a tip, give it and shake the persons hand and Thank them for the service they provided.

Don't worry about tipping EVERYONE in camp, pick out the folks that you want to give something extra to, pull them off to the side and tip them.

There is nothing wrong in not tipping someone that you feel did not give the service they were capable of, but don't make a show of it either way.

If you are uncomfortable actually giving the tip yourself, fix out a list of who you want tips to go to and hand it and all the $$ to the Guide/Outfitter/Camp Manager/PH, whoever is in charge of the camp and let that person divvy it up, or just hand that person X amount of $$ and just ask them to spread it out amothe staff.

This is all JMO.

A question occurred to me as I was reading through these posts. It seems there is a general consensus that tips should be voluntary and given to show appreciation for exceptional service above and beyond what one expected.

So, does anyone go on a guided hunt not expecting the guide or PH to work their butt off to get them in position for a shot on an animal?

Does anyone not expect the tracker to track the animal?

So, really, the tip is just for doing the job for which you paid them to do. Maybe its insurance to insure that they don't do a substandard job?

I guess I'm one of those soft Americsns, I tend to over tip. I appreciate people being frugal, my parents were brought up during the depression and when I was brought up if the wolf wasn't at the door he was on the block. But as my Mom used to say, if you can't afford to eat at a resturant and tip, eat at a cheaper resturant...

Chuck

I think it isn't as clear cut because "outfitting" falls into a slightly gray area.

Generally you do not tip Professionals (Doctors, Dentists, Accountants etc), Business owners, or other highly compensated individuals.

I think some clients think that the outfitter is running their own small business (business owner) and set their own wages.

I think the bitterness comes from the point shakari makes that if you quote the REAL and ACTUAL cost of the hunt many will try to book "cheaper" just like Rodham is trying to do. The hunter then feels like they got a deal until they add all the charges and tips until most hunts end up costing roughly the same.

Personally I'd rather see everything upfront so I could compare apples to apples instead of having to dig to find the actual cost but what can you do.

quote:

So, really, the tip is just for doing the job for which you paid them to do. Maybe its insurance to insure that they don't do a substandard job?

It might be looked at that way, but if going in the guide/outfitter, whatever knows that if a tip is given it will be for a job or an effort above average.

quote:

Personally I'd rather see everything upfront so I could compare apples to apples instead of having to dig to find the actual cost but what can you do.

The only thing I see wrong with this, is because it takes the clients ability to decide who or if a tip is warranted.

If a tip is included in the price, IMO, it loses the intent it evolved for.

Why should I go that extra mile or put out the extra effort if the tip is guaranteed?

Some folks prefer to function under a strict budget and want to know all costs, some folks like to just know what the major or main costs are and prefer to decide on such an items as tips/gratuities, after the hunt.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by CVC:
I have a couple of thoughts on tipping of wait staff. I was not a fan of tipping until I went to the Bahamas where the gratuity was included in every meal. The wait staff generally we unattentive and uncaring and yet, I was forced to tip them.

So, I prefer it to be optional and for me it is optional. I am not fearful of not tipping. However, I feel blessed that I can eat out so I tend to tip around 20%. That amount generally is small to me, but not to the person who is working hard to make a living and to see that I enjoy myself.

The Bahamas are the worst place I've ever been for service. Surly, inattentive waiters and waitresses abound. They seem to feel that since they re getting their s anyway, why should they work? On top of quite high prices, the service is an absurdity. I have been to the Bahamas literally hundreds of times, and it is only getting worse, particularly in Nassau establishments.

A lot of BS floating around here...I have an agreement with all my safari Companies and that is a tip is a "GIFT", not required but appreciated and the amount is up to the hunter, regardless of the circumstances..He pays for the hunt, nothing else is required...Most everyone tips them, some more and some less,and some not at all, so be it, some folks can afford to tip heavy, other suffer to tip at all, we understand that, end of story and no bitching allowed.........

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
A lot of BS floating around here...I have an agreement with all my safari Companies and that is a tip is a "GIFT", not required but appreciated and the amount is up to the hunter, regardless of the circumstances..He pays for the hunt, nothing else is required...Most everyone tips them, some more and some less,and some not at all, so be it, some folks can afford to tip heavy, other suffer to tip at all, we understand that, end of story and no bitching allowed.........

That is nice to hear Ray, that is the way it should be!

- mike

I think this discussion has bifurcated, tourist tipping and safari tipping.

I live in Las Vegas, Nevada, a tourist capital of the world. Tipping is appreciated for superior service, HOWEVER, if you get crappy service, you complain to the manager and many times the meal is complimentary. If I don't get good service that doesn't raise to the level of a complaint, I leave a penny, which is common way of saying, "your service sucked". Don't let anyone kidd you, an average tip is 10% and this comes from people working in the industry. A great tip is anything above that. The worst tippers are the Hollywood rich and shameless, the best are "average" people. For parties over 6-8 people then a 15% added charge is posted on the menu because of the added service a large group needs regarding service.

When in European countries I ask prior to going what the custom is. If it's part of the price, then as they say, "When in Rome.....".

When I've been on hunts in Africa, I just ask the PH, what to tip the staff. This has always been waved off with the comment, "what ever". I just push the subject telling them I appreciated the special attention bringing up things I noticed, which usually gets me what I consider a fair tip for members of the staff.