Okay, Im probably gonna get a blast for asking this question, but.........
In the world of african hunting I notice a (sometimes dramatic) increase of daily rates when it comes to DG hunting as opposed to plains game hunting, sometimes as much as 2 or 3 times more. WHY?? Who can really explain this, Ive been to Africa once, plains game hunt and planning to go again, but this difference in daily rates is astounding. Does the PH/outfitter provide more meals, better lodgeing, nicer hutning vehicles, what for the rate difference. Maybe in some cases I suppsoe more staff might be employed to deal with the phyically bigger animals, but whats the real real for the difference in rates, not simply that its Dangerous game and thats why. Of course any outfitter/ph can charge what he wants and what the market(s) will bear, but its also a hunters choice not to use them. Not meant to start a fight here, but looking for appropriate and sound reasning to explain this difference.

It's because they have fewer buffalo to sell than impala. The animals in highest demand command the highest daily rates. A bit of the daily rate correlates to increased operating costs for conducting safaris in very remote areas, but most of what you pay is a function of supply and demand.

The increased daily rates is only a small part of it, the duration of the hunt mandated for dangerous game is what gets you and then the trophy fees can make you REALLY reach deep.

I wish someone could figure out what to do about it, sure would be nice to zip over there and hunt buff, lion, ele, croc and hippo for 10k.

Prices obviously vary from country to country and you might find you're comparing apples to oranges. - For example, a PG hunt in SA compared to a DG hunt in perhaps Tanzania.

Obviously, a PH gets paid more to hunt DG than he does PG simply because it's more dangerous. To say nothing of the fact he'll probably have different personal insurance policies (etc) in place..... also, regular DG PHs tend to be more experienced with a higher reputation -and therefore can ask a higher fee.....

Add on the fact that most (unfenced/True Wilderness Areas) such as where most DG is found, are considerably more remote, which means that every can of beer & every gallon of fuel etc has to bought in and you start to see why the costs rise.

If people could zip over there and hunt buff, lion, ele, croc and hippo for 10k, then it wouldn't be long before there was nothing left to hunt.

Simple.

They make a profit margin on BOTH the daily rates and the trophy fees. Sometimes most of the profit is made on the daily rates with most of the trophy fee going to the concession.

For animals in high demand but limited supply they charge a higher daily rate so they can make more dollars.

Same as high observer rates. I was told it costs about $25 to $50 per day to have a guest in camp, yet some outfitters even charge ridiculous prices like US$275 per day per observer.

Part of it is because you are renting 100,000 acres for your personal playground instead of 5,000. Part of it is demand rationing. And part of it (rather small) is higher costs to support the hunt.

It's not the rule though. We offer DG hunts in the lowveld, RSA, for $380 per day. Of course, DG trophy fees are higher in RSA and you are generally hunting fenced property. But it's easier to get to so no expensive charters involved, more civilized living, and there is a larger concentration and variety of PG to take after you have your DG done. We can do White Rhino, Elephant, Buffalo, Lion (through middle 2007 at least), and Leopard.

Hunting outfitters are in business to make a profit. To do this, they add a mark-up on their costs. What mark-up they add is based on the clientele they want to target and demand. That is not so difficult to understand now is it?

Is someone suggesting observers should be accommodated at cost?

Bwanamich,

Previous threads have discussed this same topic extensively.

And, yes, many feel that the observer rates are outrageous and they should be offered at cost or even FREE!
If bringing along an observer allows the hunter to be in the camp, paying the higher daily rates, and the trophy fees on top of that [with the profits from each] then observers should be encouraged at reasonable fees.
How much EXTRA does it actually cost to sleep in the same tent, ride the same vehicle, eat the same meals, drink a few beers?

And those previous threads had very opposed views on the subject

I see no reason why an observer should not pay a "premium" to be on safari.

It costs the same to accommodate and feed a hunter or an observer. A hunter may pay upwards of $1,000 a day and an observer $275 (for e.g.) so the ratio seems fair to me

Bwanamich,

As I recall, those "opposed views" represented those that CHARGE the fees and those that PAY the fees.

We all understand the desire to recoup the extra costs - but really - what are those actual costs? Does it cost 3 times as much in a camp in the Selous as it does on a ranch in RSA?

I don't know what it costs in a ranch in SA but suspect 3 times might be close. The logistics involved in setting up a camp every year and then taking it down completely at the end of the season can be rather frightening. An adventure in itself in the true sense of the word.



Its not as easy as going to the local shop and filling the car up with groceries.... Observer Gov fees alone are $50 a day

Russ hit it square... to furthur elaborate let me give an example of a legitimate operator in Zim (as oposed to one who has his concession by patronage...)

You pay for the concession at an auction say US$500,000 for 5 years
you pay parks 30% of the trophy fees as an anual "concession Fee"

You pay parks for the animals..

So..in Matetsi say, you break your quota into bags- 16 buff p/a, 5 ele, 5 leopard, 6 sable plains game. You have to make enough proffit on your daily ratews and trophy fees to cover the auction price and concession fees. so for an elephant

Parks trophy fee= US$9500
concession fee attributable to that animal US$2825
Auction Fee US$5000

Ie the operator is paying parks nearly US$18,000 for that animal.

Assuming he chooses to market his elephants with a "trophy fee" of US$12,000 then the rest of what he has to pay parks is hidden in the daily rates.

Also, costs for running a hunt in most of our big game areas cost a whole lot more than running one in a plainsgame area or ranch (save and Lemco are a bit different). On most game ranches the PH or operator can get by using a conventional 4x4 bakkie like a toyota hilux - and then expect to get ten years worth of work out of the truck. Hunt an area like chete and a expensive big 4x4 like a landcruiser has a three year life span. US$25k for a hi Lux over ten years = $2500 pa. A cruiser costs US$48k - ie $16k p.a, and chews through a heck of a lot more fuel.

Getting a coke from town to a ranch can be done in a lorry or 4x2 bakkie. Getting it to many big game concessions needs a heavy duty 4x4 or even has to be flown in. A coke that costs 30 cents in Harare can easily cost the operator $3 landed in the camp.

Mind you, I must admit that I lie awake at night worrying if the big operators (and my bank) are making enough money

On my last safari(s) all the groceries and supplies we needed (except fuel) came in with us in our Landcruiser so I guess I was already paying the "freight" needed to get it there.

Assuming the observer rate doesn't isn't marked up for air charters etc, and if the observer shares accomodation how are they costing much at all (taking into account gov't fees, small additional food and drink costs)?

I was asked for a high observer rate for a video cameraman on a recent hunt who then was asked to share the PHs accomodation with up to four other guys! Yes I did negotiate a 'discount' at the end of the safari.

In most cases the observer fee is cream for the outfitter so when booking, negotiate!

I have no problem with an operator making a profit, and I understand the relationship with the Government and Council regarding trophy fees; I agree upon the prices in advance. I own a construction company in St. Thomas, so, I may be forgiven if I have a few opions(sp)(I am too lazy to check the spelling). Yes, everything must be brought in from Harare, however, it costs the same to bring in 100# for 3 people as it does for 150# for 5 people. The monthly wage, as I understand it, is about 14.00usd for rural folk, and they are on the clock regardless of the number of people in camp, within reason. It also costs the same to turn the generator on for 2 people in a chalet as it does for 1. When I was in the Army I used to tell the troops that they could tell me anything they wished: I only drew the line if they expected me to believe it.

reasonable costs for the observer should include any government fees. When that fee is known, it is hard for me to justify the high price some PH's charge. I won't hunt with a PH that charges that extra fee. There are too many that don't. My last hunt in Zambia cost an extra $100.00 a day for my wife. That is the government fee for her. The PH was satisfied with his daily rate. There is really no need to extract every last cent from a client who is already paying a lot for the service. This is MY opinion, it may not suite others at all. I have no trouble finding good hunts where this extra fee is not charged. I also book for two hunters in the same camp so that could make the difference.

Obligatory costs vary from country to country and from concession to concession. In Tz for e.g. if you own a concession that is in an Open Area, Game Reserve, Forest Reserve or Game Controlled Area you may have additional costs other than the Gov Observer fee. A concession may also require that every visitor, hunter or observer, pay a royalty to the village whose land the concession is on. Concession boundaries do not always follow village boundaries which means you may have to pay royalty to more than one village. And so on. so when you add all of these up, you may find that those obligatory costs alone add up to $100 or so depending on where you hunt. So right there you are starting off with more than what some of you are prepared to pay in the first place because you have hunted the world over in areas where these obligatory costs do not occur. Well that is just great but don't condem those that are obliged to pass on these costs to the client for whatever reason. By all means negotiate and if you get a discount well done but if you don't why "black list" the outfit?

It is not just about food and Bev and a bed. Its about opening and maintaining the hunting roads, its about community development projects, its about anti poaching work, its about feeding and housing 12-20 staff per camp even on days that there are no clients, it's about treating them when they get sick, its about maintaining your fleet of vehicles in working order, your camp equipment in good shape, and all your overheads covered. You charge as a matter of business principle. Just as daily rates are negotiable, so are observer rates

More and more clients travel with family/friends which often involves more than 1 observer. Should all observers be F.O.C.? If not, how many should? What's the limit? For there to be consistancy and a business standard, most outfitters have an observer rate in their safari prices. If they decide to do away with it then that is their prerogative not to charge. Again no reason to cry foul if they don't

The one I like and I will name the outfitter. Russ Broom has on his web site a charge of I believe $3500 for miscellaneous and sundry items. This includes air charter (if needed) dip and pack, cites etc. What if one doesn't need an air charter or cites. I could go on an on but I think you get the point.

Discussions such as this one on what is fair and reasonable, be it daily rates, trophy fees, observer fees, etc, always amuse me. While hunting is a sport to most of us, it is also in the final analysis, a business agreement. In a free enterprise or capitalistic system, a seller can offer his goods and services at whatever price he feels the market will bear. The customer can evaluate the product being offered and decide to buy from that seller, choose a different seller with a better offer, or decline to buy from anyone.

What is required for the system to work is an honest representation of exactly what is being offered for whatever price is asked. I, for one, would gladly pay an observer fee for my wife of $500 per day if it were coupled with a $100 per day daily fee for a DGH hunt along with reasonable trophy fees, good quality animals and a quality camp.

Like the old saying goes: "You pays your money, and takes your choice."

When a client asks for a free observer because "ABC Outfitters" offers that, I always ask to see ABC's full quotation. sually the client gets my point and it's not necessary to go there.U

As Ramhunter has noted -- we have the option to else where if we do not like any of the prices that are offered whether it is the daily rate or for the non-hunting observer. I might add that not all camps are the same in that certain camps would offer vastly better "opportunities and entertainment items" than other camps for a non-hunting companion. And lets face it -- in some camps I would not really feel comfortable taking along my significant other and leaving her in camp by herself to do what ever while I was out chasing critters should it be determined that the days hunt might exceed her comfort level.

Folks,

The observer rate is an emotional subject and everybody's comments are valid from some perspective. What noboby has mentioned is what a bargain it is for the observer. Let's take a scenario were you take a friend as an observer. That friend actualy gets to do everything the shooter does except shoot including being in on the buffalo, lion or whatever kill. That's some thrilling stuff for anyone. To me this is worth a great deal more than the average observer fee and both Sadie and I thought that well before I got in the business. For an observer that sits around camp it is not as good a deal but the chance to be very much involved in the actual hunt is available. The choice to be involved or not is the observers. If somebody wants to take me on safari and let me get by with just paying the observer rate I'd be all over it anytime as long I could fit it in my schedule.

Mark

I haven't read every post and am not about to debate what one outfit deems necessary to cover expenses as compared to another... However, in regard to the "regular" daily rate vs. the DG rate I see this as a no brainer! What is that second catagory called? DANGEROUS!!!! You'd have to be a fool to not expect your PH to charge more where the risk is greater. Do race car drivers make the same wages as taxi drivers?

This is strictly business as far as I see it. A company offers a product for a price if you don't like it then go somewhere else. How much profit he makes is his own business.

Jerry's right. Look through all the posts and see how many "discounted" hunts are suddenly available at the end of the season. That is only on this website. Think of the hundreds of other hunts that won't be sold. The PH will lament that it was a bad year or could have been better if we had sold our full quota. Remember that next year when some veteran hunter wants to hunt with you and wants to negotiate the observer fee. The observer is getting a good deal Right?? How about Less than $100.oo a day like the photo safaris offer. That is really closer to the reality of it all anyway. At least for the observer. Some PH's act like the Tanzanian government. Nickle and dime you to death for that last drop of $$$$. I really respect each and every PH and his staff that I have hunted with. My first two hunts with my family, I paid the usual and customary fee. Only later did I feel we were ripped off quite a bit. If I do not take my wife his costs are the same(with the exception of Govt. Tax) as if I do take her. The roads don't get bigger, the game fatter and better quality, the food isn't 100% better. Nothing MAJOR is going to be statistically different whether I bring a guest or not. If you bring several in a family group perhaps, or if the family wants separate entertainment or trips, OK. One guest ??? I doubt it. It is strickly business, you are right and I take mine where they are more conscerned about the experience rather than the last dime in your pocket. I can go every year if I can stay healthy and get the time off from my group. I am careful where and how I spend my money.

This is my line and I'm sticking to it!

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
This is strictly business as far as I see it. A company offers a product for a price if you don't like it then go somewhere else. How much profit he makes is his own business.

There you go! Exactly.

HI eVERYONE,


sEEING AS ALL HAS HAD TIER SAY AND IDEAS, HERE IS DIMEFULL FROM ME,

A hunt is only as good as your satisfcation at the end ot the day, if you felt that the price was too hight for the enyoyment received, then We as outfitters either charged too much or did not provide enough.

Persdonally my rates are as follows, A set price, for hunters and observers, which sets the grounds for making a deal, bring x amount of observers along , and their day fees drop considerably, only one, and my negotion is fairly limited.

On a recent photo safari I descibed it as such, the first two pays the trip, if thier is 4 the price drops on a sliding scale, if 6, the day fees goes down some more, divide that between 6 and all benefit more.

When money is involved there will be always some tight feelings about it,