The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Barnes VorTX ammo - BIG problemGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I’m taking my 31 year old son on his 2nd African hunt in a couple months, and it’ll be his 1st buffalo hunt. Ten days in Maswa North with Mike Fell for 2 buffalo and a handful of plains game, the last hunt of the season. I’m going along as the observer, photographer and tab payer; I can’t shoot as I’m still rehabbing from rotator cuff surgery. I bought my son a model 70 in 375 H&H and he’s been shooting it in preparation. Our plan is to shoot Barnes factory ammo with 300 grain TSX bullets, though he’s also been shooting some Federal ammo loaded with 300 grain Nosler Partitions. Mike Fell prefers the TSX bullets, telling me it is his #1 favorite bullet for buffalo. My son and I have also long favored these bullets for most of our hunting, so it’s an easy choice. Here is the problem... Last evening, I opened a brand new box of VorTX and the very first cartridge my son chambered was a dud. The primer is fully indented by the firing pin. I can tell there is powder in the cartridge, both by weight and shaking the cartridge. So, the primer was the problem. He fired a few more shots with this ammo with no problems at all. Our concern now is dependability of this ammo. My son is worried about whether he’s going to have another mis-Fire at a critical time. As you all know, a misfire on a DG hunt could be problematic in a bad way. Has anyone else had such a problem with Barnes ammo? I’ve had this problem before with some shotgun shells, but that’s over tens of thousands of rounds fired; and neither of us has ever had this happen with rifle ammo before, either factory or handloads. Has this happened to anyone else with Barnes ammo? | ||
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At 48 I am available for adoption, I can bring my own ammo!! I would be concerned also, having fired many thousands of handloaded small bore varmint loads had a few bad primer, never had a big bore handload not go bang, did you call Barnes, maybe a recall? does anyone else load the Barnes, maybe a custom loader? | |||
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I would certainly call Barnes. They eon’t Admit any problem, but they need to know. I have a 416 Rigby that would occasionally not go bang in spite of a dented primer. Turned out the chamber was just a little generous, allowing some forward motion of the cartridge, softening the primer strike. Had the barrel turned in and chamber recut, problem went away. It might be worth your while to have the chamber checked with a no-go gauge. | |||
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Do you have time to Order ammo loaded with TSax from one of the Custom ammo shop outfits? Corbon and Double Tap have 375 HH TSX loaded ammo. | |||
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For Buffalo hunting I don't shoot factory ammo! I handload all my hunting ammo, and if there is a problem that gets me killed there is no one to blame except myself! However I trust my loading far more than any factory, and it is my butt that is on the line! …………………………………………………………………….  Mac....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I have actually had a 1/2 dozen primers in the last two years not ignite with good solid strikes and indentations in my handloads. I also don't know that it is a "Barnes" problem or any ammunition manufacturer including the handloader himself because most ammunition manufacturers do not make their own primers. There is no way to test a primer other than shooting. The likelihood is of the millions of primers produced some will be bad. Barnes doesn't make its own primers and even if they do extensive testing there is no way to test them all. If you produce 10 million primers and you have 99.9999% reliability you still have 10 bad primers. I would think of it in the reverse - I just found the one bad primer out of the 1 in a million that exist so I am not going to find another. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Dan, I would think it is an anomalie. I've rolled my own for many years and had a dead primer once. I don't think I'd fret over it unless you get more duds in the same batch of ammo. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Simple Answer: Remington now owns Barnes DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Thats no solution either. This pic is from a 2012 trip to Namibia, it is a 375 H&H, loaded with a 300 solid, by one of those custom shops. No, I don't trust them either.  However, having said that, there are somethings called a clearing drill, that most guys that have spent time in the small unit armed forces are familiar with. Things like what if my rifle doesn't go bang when it is supposed to, what should I do next coach? If it's a double, use the other trigger. If that doesn't work, open it, swap ammo ( don't waste time inspecting rounds, swap them with the two you should already have in your off hand). If it still doesn't go bang, look for your PH, cuz this this gun ain't gonna go bang for a bit. Hope he can save you! If its a bolt gun, depending on the situation, raise and lower the bolt handle, recocking the gun. Try it, if not good run the bolt all the way get a fresh round in the chamber. If you have time, this is actually the best option. Later after the crisis, you can look at the ammo and see what the primer strike is like. Shake it, see if there is powder in it etc. The most scariest thing to me, is when it is a squib, it goes pop, the bullet unseats, but doesn't exit the muzzle. Your rifle is now a club. Master of Boats, Slayer of Beasts, Charmer of the fair sex, ...... and sometimes changer of the diaper..... | |||
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I called Barnes this morning and spoke to a fellow named Chase. He indicated that he wasn’t aware of anyone ever having a misfire in any of their safari grade ammo. He asked that I send back the cartridge in question, along with all 4 boxes of 375 that I bought. He indicated that they’ll probably check all of it to make sure it was an isolated cartridge and not related to that lot of ammunition. They are going to send me 4 new boxes of ammo from a different lot. They’ve already sent me a prepaid shipping label and are sending 4 boxes to my local Sportsman’s Warehouse to replace mine. I think that’s pretty darn responsive, quality customer service. Time will tell how the new ammo performs. I expect it to be fine. | |||
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That's decent. Buying more of a different lot was going to be my suggestion if the other options were out. | |||
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primers or headspace? Then again it’s a belted case. | |||
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Good point. Head spaces on the belt. Might consider the firing pin spring, just to cover all bases. | |||
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Just for assurance. Have your bolt taken apart and cleaned. I had build up in one of mine. No problem, had it rebarreled and had the 'smith make sure. He told me the bolt had a load of crap in it so that was a good decision. Even a new gun can have metal shavings or chips in there. Well worth what it would take to make damned sure. I doubt a buff would fit very well in your pocket, or the kids either. Good for Barnes. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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The unfired primer was solidly indented, so headspace isn’t the issue. And, this is a new rifle. All cases shot have normally indented primers. I’m 100% sure the problem lies with the cartridge, not the rifle. | |||
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I had this problem once and all I needed to do was take my bolt apart and clean the spring and bolt assembly as some grease had gunked up the works. The fail to fire primers looked like they were struck enough to fire but evidently not. "In the worship of security we fling ourselves beneath the wheels of routine, and before we know it our lives are gone"--Sterling Hayden-- David Tenney US Operations Manager Trophy Game Safaris Southern Africa Tino and Amanda Erasmus www.tgsafari.co.za | |||
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If that happened to me, I would just shoot the Noslers, right or wrong makes little difference in your case, but peace of mind is just one less problem to worry about.. Ive gone 40 plus years without a misfire from factory ammo or handloads while hunting, and if I ever have one I will never shoot that factory ammo again..but then my DG hunting has run its course.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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About 20 years ago I canabalised 2 rifles and made up a 358 Win in a short Mod 70 action. I found some Vihtavouri primers and loaded up 50 rounds. On the range many of them would not go off first time. A re-cock and fire was fine. I went back to my trusted F210 I also tried a box of old factory ammo. 1 round went click. I ejected it and only the case came out. I could not rechamber the next round. Went home and used a cleaning rod to really bang out a stuck bullet. The factory round had no powder in it! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I do NOT think it is an anomaly. I have had the same problem with Barnes Vortex Ammo in 416 Remington. At one point I purchased 12 boxes of Barnes Vortex in 416 Remington with the TSX bullet. I had about 8 failures (with primer dented deeply) in 10 boxes of Barnes Ammo. I still have a couple boxes remaining. I have NEVER had a failure with any other brand of ammo while using this rifle. I've shot Federal, Hornaday, Winchester, Remington and Nosler ammo with no failures. I love the TSX bullet, but there is NO WAY I'd take Barnes ammunition on a dangerous game hunt. I've been using the Barnes ammo for practice at the range. For what it is worth, I have used Barnes Vortex ammo in my 338 Win Mag with no issues. The batch of 416 Rem that purchased may have been just been a bad lot, but I know I will never take Barnes ammo on a dangerous game hunt. Brad Go Duke!! | |||
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We reload a lot of ammo, and frankly, I cannot remember getting any that have failed!! We have had a number of failure from factory ammo, mostly military. | |||
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Brad, Sent you a PM. | |||
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I guess my oginal post was too cryptic- Remington ammunition over my lifetime has by far had the greatest numbers of failure to fire from adequate primer stikes than any other factory fresh centerfire ammunition in various calibers than any other commercially produced ammunition that I and those around me have fired. That situation ramped up in frequency as their production increased during the Obama years. With Barnes now being in the Remington fold it follws that the situation would extend itself to Barnes. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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You'll do just fine with the partitions if you decide on them. | |||
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OK - let’s open a can of worms. I have a Win 70 chambered in 30.06. I too experienced indented cartridges (1 every now and then). It was traced to a weak spring on the firing pin. The Smith was extremely surprised and said he’d never seen a mod 70 spring go bad. If you’re going for DG, I’d have that checked just to be sure. Never follow a bad move with a stupid move. | |||
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Wasn't lost on me. The couple of misfires I have had in my lifetime involved Remington primers. Fool me twice, shame on me. They never got a chance at a third time. I later had a Remington R&D engineer agree that the Remington primer cups are harder than other brands. I did not ask why they do that. Soured me on use of Remington ammunition and component primers. CCI, Winchester, Federal all good IMHO. But making sure headspace of rifle and ammo are proper and firing pin strike is not impeded by gunk or weak spring is mandatory after a misfire.  Rip ... | |||
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Here's my barnes/primer story. About 17-18 years ago a local shop was going out of business and had PMC ammo loaded with 300 grain x-bullets for a steal. I bought the last 2 boxes and decided to try them on an upcoming moose hunt. I fired one box to test them out. No issues. First day I chased away a way too curious bear that came in to about 35 yards before deciding to take off. A few hours later walking through waist high brush the same bear stood up on his hind legs about 50 yards to my left front. I aimed/yelled/waved again and he took off. I didn't have a sense of humor about this at all as he'd have to have circled around to get ahead of me again. Next day I saw him again and decided that since it was also bear season and I didn't like the idea of curious bears I'd shoot him. This time I got to 40 yards, crawled out from behind a bush, and my rifle went CLICK. My instant thought was what might have happened the day before if I'd needed to shoot. It was windy enough that the bear hadn't heard and I had 5 of my practice loads with Hornady round noses in my pocket so I just dropped the floor plate and reloaded the rifle. He's now a rug. He had a healed over bullet wound in his lower jaw and was missing a bunch of lower teeth, so maybe that was why he behaved that way. Went to the range with the rest of the ammo. 3 duds out of 20. I've only used factory ammo twice since. DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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Exactly this... belt area could be cut too deep. But measure firing pin protrusion just in case. | |||
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You might want to think about buying four or five boxes of the Swift 375 H&H 300g A-Frame ammo. Haven't heard anything but good things about the 300 A-Frames on buffs. I've only used them on brown bear but had great results. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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For a brand new rifle I would strongly recommend removing the firing pin and degreasing and then reoiling the entire boot. JMO BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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I would either return it and get another one or have Winchester go through it on an immediate basis. I had a similar problem on a Remington XCR II in 375 H&H. I was lucky enough to have a very good gunsmith locally. He put in a heavier spring and pin, plus did some other needed work. The Remington was new out of the box as well. Kinda sad. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I had a problem recently as well with some remington factory ammo in 375. Cleaned my bolt and problem solved. | |||
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As pointed out, Remington now owns and loads Barnes ammo. And sometimes crap happens. And in my experience even with some brands of custom ammo mentioned Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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No one has mentioned firing pin protrusion. Well worth checking, particularly as it sounds like the rifle may be a recent purchase. | |||
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Take a misfire round and shoot in different rifle. Might tell ya something. KISS | |||
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In our case, I decided the solution would be handloaded ammo. I had a friend who does a lot of custom loading and gunsmithing, work up some loads, as well as do some work on my son’s 375. He now has some 300 grain TSX’s and Cutting Edge solids loaded up, plenty for practice as well as his safari. Less than 30 days till blast off! We’ve got 1 1/2 days in Dubai, then 2 days touring Tarangire Park before we fly into Maswa and my son chasing 2 buffalo and PG for 10 days. | |||
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I have had one misfire in Factory ammo in 40 years. | |||
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I just had this happen with vor tx 300 RUM. Cases are R-P by the way. I will call but I misplaced the box with the dud. Not impressed. Had several on a 7mm-08 with hornady whitetail ammo used for practice for my sons elk hunt last month. Very unimpressed. Don’t remember this ever happening this much before White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Do what you have to do to restore confidence in your ammo. Since I don’t like barnes much bullets anyway, I’m not going to defend their ammo too hard. After you do that, (very likely for nothing) clean your bolt and put a Wolf spring in it. It makes little difference if the rifle is brand new, bad springs happen too. Springs are cheap. Don’t compare the firing pin indent of a misfire to a fired round and think it means much. A misfire should have a considerably deeper indent than one that actually fired because the pressure builds and stops the forward travel. Prime a bunch of empty cases and fire them if you don’t believe it. | |||
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Dogleg - My son shot handloads and had great performance from his ammo. We were able to recover 2 TSX Bullets after they’d fully penetrated the chest of his first bull, they performed as expected. Glad you brought this up, I still need to put together a hunt report. | |||
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ding, ding, ding winner! And with the lack of quality in all products by them today.... I would not trust them. I would load my own. | |||
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