I am looking at the Hornady 2004 product catalog and they list under there heavy mag. section the .458 win. mag. 500 FMJ RN with a muzzle vecocity of 2260 fps and energy at 5670 FP They don't list the rifle or barrel length used to obtain those vecocities. Can they be accurate ? Thats only 40 FPS slower then the Hornady 458Lott load that they show in there catalog. In looking at this one would think that if hornady doesn't come up with a 458Lott HM load then there isn't much of a gain in going to the Lott. I guess what i am getting at is why would someone who reloads bother to rechamber there 458 win mag to Lott if they could get so close to Lott velocities .

Just a week or two ago Phil Shoemaker responded to a similar question and said he had actually chrono'd that Hornady HM 458 Win load at 2220fps out of a 22" bbl Lott rifle. In that same rifle the factory Hornady .458 Lott 500gr ammo clocked 2260fps.

I've not chrono'd this Hornady HM .458 Win ammo in my own .458 but Phil's findings are quite interesting... One must wonder if 40fps would be worth the difference. Now in handloading you should be able to eek-out 2300fps of course with the Lott, but that HM loading really brings the old Win Mag into a new light.

There's no telling how well these loads will continue to operate in hot climes as pressures will be right up there. However, it nice to have some factory stuff that gives the old cartridge some juice. The difficult part will be to duplicate the factory loads w/o undue pressures and having your primers fall out of the primer pocket. Unless we know exactly what type of powder is being used, we'll just have to get by with our slower handloads. I suspect that the load is compressed and am wondering how they will hold up over time and not cake up like the old Winchester rounds.

You should try a box of those Hornady HM's.

Well, buy a box then give the 17 remaining to somebody else. They can use them when their friends want to try the "big bore"! The friends won't ask again!

These are not pleasant to shoot - if these are what 458Lott is like - my BRNO will stay 458Win! I'll make due. IMHO

Les

I am not sure which palanet you guys hale from, however, all of the bad press about the Winny is just that - bad press. Stories passed on from year to year with little relevance to the present.
Over the last two years I have experimented with the 458 Win mag in Oklahoma. Not the Sahara but I didn't see elephant hunts offered in the Sahara this year at Dallas or Reno. My experiments started 5 years ago with the loads listed in Hornady and Hodgdon components. I also bought two boxes of factory heavy Magnum ammo as a test control.

The test bed was a Winchester Classic with a 22"barres that DJPaintless now owns. The Factory loads chronographed at a 12 shot average of 2246 in Oklahoma at 95-100 degree temp. Two shots each session over a 6 week period of time. The boxes were left on the floor board of my car over the 6 week trial. They were therefore exposed to a varying temp I am sure that would exceed 120 degrees the inside temp of the car in full sun. I tested the ammo through various times during the fall winter, and next spring and found the average two shot velocity of the remaining 22 rounds was 2224. The error factor is how far the screens are placed in front of the muzzle. Not all of our benches allow the same spacing. Not pure science but a trend none the less. Interesting to note that I checked the velocity in my pre-64 Model 70 458 African with a 25" barrel and the gain per inch was less than 15 ft/sec.
On the brighter side, one does not have to use expensive factory ammo to approximate the results of the Heavy Magnum. No you cannot get the same powder and amount in the case as Hornady, however, my Reloader 7 load gave me a 2225 ft/sec with the Hornady RN 500 gr and 2238 with the FMJ. In Oklahoma during the hot season. I tried three other loads during the same trial which resulted in velocities above 2150 aggrigate. If that performance profile will work for the double gun guys It will work for me. Also note the loads are in the 49,000 to 52,000 psi range so don't get uppity about the high pressure if you are using any modern bottle necked case. Compressed charged are there but I saw no irratic burning profile as would be seen as a large extreme spread phenomonon. Just trying to inject some clarity into the equasion.

There are those that dont believe it. Just try it. Remember If you use fresh ammo and keep it reasonably protected, you only need it to work for 30 days or less to get the job done. It doesn't have to age for decades to be a useful tool.

I use about 74 grains of A2230 to move a 500 grain Hornady (softs & solids) about 2,160 to 2,180 fps. For me, I'm just looking for an accurate load between 2,150 and 2,200 fps.

I start to find the recoil uncomfortable above 2,200 fps.

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
I use about 74 grains of A2230 to move a 500 grain Hornady (softs & solids) about 2,160 to 2,180 fps. For me, I'm just looking for an accurate load between 2,150 and 2,200 fps.

I start to find the recoil uncomfortable above 2,200 fps.

Tim

I liked the speed of your A2230 load but I could not get the softs and solids to print together until the solid was at less than 2100 ft/sec and I didn't like that. I have a lott in the works now but I am doing it more as an experiment. I have four rifles planned. All of them on pre-64 Modle 70 long mag actions with full intergral barrel furnature. I have the 404 Jeffery and the 375 H&H in hand. The 458 Lott will be done by fall and the 300 H&H the following summer. I love my African Battery.

lb404,

I'm using both the new style Hornady solid and the new style Hornady Interbond Soft. I used 74 grains for both and they printed to the same hole at 100 yrds. I shooting a Pre-64 M70 "African" with the factory 25" barrel. Using a Leupold VariX-III 1.5-5x mounted in Leupold QRW rings & bases.

I should be getting a shipment from MidwayUSA next week with some 500 grain Woodleigh softs, 500 grain Woodliegh solids, and 510 grain Woodliegh softs. I am going to load all three with 72, 73, & 74 grains of A2230 to see what velocity and POI I get with each bullet.

I'm sure I should just stick with my Hornady bullets, but I can't stop myself

Tim

Heavy Magnum or Mini Magnum loads in factory ammo are produced by so called "in-case compaction".
The powder is weakened by solvents and compressed up to a load density of 125%.

This process is not suitable for reloaders. So we have to stick at .458 Lott for velocities around 2300 f/s.

lb404,

I've been a 458 WM fan for quite some time. Personally I have not found it lacking. It always seemed to me that it wasn't difficult to get the magic 2150fps from any standard length barrel. Presently I'm loading 74gr. of H4895 and the Hornady bullet for 2100fps from a 20" barrel. The Federal factory loads are only about 5% behind so I hunted with them last year and I don't believe the elephant knew the difference.

Personally I see the 458WM as kind of like the 30-06 with the 180 Nosler Partition. Neither round is very flashy but they both just flat work.

Regards,

Mark

An interresting side note is the 458 at the above velocities operates at above 55,000 PSI, some by a rather large margin..and that may be OK, but it has apparantly always caused problems in hot climes, no one can deny that, the Zimbabwe game dept. proved that many times over...thus the loaded down ammo from the factories....

By the same token a 458 Lott loaded at 2100 or a 460 Wby loaded at 2200 would show about 40,000 or so PSI...this makes since to me..

I consider the 458 Win. a "Blivit", thats 10 lbs. of shit in a 5 Lb bag.....considering the ease in which one can convert to a 458 Lott and shoot it at 2000 FPS and up, it seems to me the best approach, as opposed to trying to rescue a sorry horse.....

The Hornady Heavy Mag ammo is actually lower in pressure than comparable loads using 2230, and about like the Lott. The powder they use is extremely cool burning, and all of the Heavy Mag ammo they sell warns that pressure is insufficient to operate gas semi-autos.

Why not use the Hodgdon extreme powders with the .458? These have no pressure change with temperature, and thus would be good in the tropics. I believe the H4895 referenced above is one. Varget is definitely one.

I have proven this with long range match shooting. It used to be that one had to remove a cartridge that was left in the chamber a long time or else it would be "cooked" and shoot high. This is no longer the case.

I have an unfired .458 that I want to try. From what I can tell, there is no problem in getting a 500 grain bullet to shoot at the same velocity as with the 470 Nitro Express.

I find the "anemic" .458 a facinating topic that reminds me of the old topic of Magnum 30's with "cordite powder" versus the old "obsolete" .30/06. I am certain that the .458 Lott drives a 500gr bullet faster than a .458 WM, or can drive it at the same speed with less pressure. Just how much more "juice" do you need than a .458 WM? (Don't give me the old bigger is better routine; 20mm's are not available yet in shoulder fired rifles, and a 500gr bullet powerwise is as comparable to an elephant as a .22 LR is to a squirrel considering size and weight). Evidently, a 500gr bullet at 2000fps is more than sufficient for Elephant at the ranges any "sane" PH would let you shoot at one and the .458, considered by other "experienced" hunters, such as Aagaard, Shoemaker, and Clark would qualify as sufficient. I do note that less pressure in hot climates is a good thing if accuracy is maintained, but Winchester now lists a load of 73.0gr of 748 with a 500gr FMJ at 2040fps (24" BBL)at a pressure of 39000CUP, not PSI and not anywhere near 55000psi as suggested. Hodgdon also lists 75.5gr of H335 (some say "identical" to Win 748) at 2163fps (24" BBL) with 50,300CUP and "Varget" at 2152fps at 48,100CUP, as well a a load of H4895 (all with 500gr bullets) to very similar velocities and pressures. Another "factoid", is that Winchester does not recommend (anymore) "compressing" ball powder because of the tendency of the powder to "solidify" under certain conditions of heat, humidity, or long periods of storage. I would bet that the Zimbabwe game department wasn't too carful on how they stored their (probably Winchester with "ball" powder) ammo or checked the date of maufacture. I believe that most hunters going to Africa these days do use relatively "fresh" ammo or know a "thing or two" about using a reliable load before they bet their "hide" on it. I'll admit that if I have a failure of a bullet, primer, or any other component that it "taints" my opinion of that particular product and I probably won't use it again; however, I think the .458 has gotten a "bum rap" when the culprit was poor loading (in this case) by the manufacture. I would not dare try to change the opinions of Mr. Atkinson, Seyfried, or Lott who has tons of more experience than I, and whom I respect; however, IMHO to consider a .458 to have little more capability than a 45/70 Ruger #1 load because of design is contrary to logic. I think that the idea of designing a cartridge to be fired in a rifle with a 30/06 length of action to shoot a 500gr .45 caliber bullet at over 2000fps was a "criteria" Winchester met and a combination that has worked for many decades since its 1958 inception. If it now takes 2250fps to kill or "turn" an elephant and 2000 won't do it than the animals are tougher, the bullets softer, or they being shot at longer distances than in the past. If so, the logical step would be to go to the .460 Weatherby and be "done with it". (I haven't read too many people championing that cartridge and it has at least 200fps on the Lott.) I realize that Bell, using a 7X57, was considerable lucky in some instances while slaying his 1000 plus "els", but also incredibly skilled. I just see this "bigger" faster game played out in with every bore size on the market since Newton designed his first "magnum" cartidges. "Ballistics" do not kill "squat"; however, bullets of sufficient weight and speed to penatrate to a vital (albeit mortal) area is the determining factor no matter the "quarry". Still the controversy makes for more sales and calibers. Let the good times roll. Mags

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
An interresting side note is the 458 at the above velocities operates at above 55,000 PSI, some by a rather large margin

OK....now I am confused, Ray. Don't you usually advocate the .416 Rem over the Rigby on the grounds that this very pressure argument is overstated bullshit? I would be curious to know the operating pressure of the .416 Rem (or any number of plains game calibres) in relation to the Hornady .458 loads we are discussing. Question...why aren't people blowing up their plains game guns left and right in the hot Zimbabwe sun?

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek