Is it wise?

For an example, say a 577 or 600 Nitro Express.

Another thread with Mark Sullivan as the topic. One thing that I got from the video "Africa's Black Death" was the buff charge where the first 600 Nitro was ineffective and it was the second round from the double that bowled the buff over.

Using a single shot in these circumstances would not be pretty.

But also, say if hunting buff, the reasonable (?) likelihood that additional shots would be required to anchor the beast? (please assume a reasonably placed first shot was made)

Thanks.

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John
alias Nitro

NitroExpress.com

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I know exactly what your point is, but still anyone can miss the brain or miss altogether, and if using a single shot, well.... I hope whatever it is, would be a good distance away. Even a bolt action in that scene would have been trouble.

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Talking about misses and hits (off topic). a video on hunting Northern Australian Water Buff quite a few years ago. The hunter fired his double at a buff and the dust flew off the buffs shoulder and was hard hit.

However if watching the video if you watch carefully you will see a "spurt" of dust half way between the hunter and the buff where the bullet richocets off the ground and the travels some 30 yards before hitting the buff in the shoulder. A very lucky shot.

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John
alias Nitro

NitroExpress.com

Hence, I got a .470 Capstick and put aside that .375JDJ (at least for buff).

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

Miss this area and a whole lot of screaming, running, and shooting can ensue. Buff charges are rare outside of Hollywood, but they do happen. The best way to terminate a charging buff is a pill through the nose to the brain. Sounds simple, however, toss in the fact that the buff is moving with speed and often times you are shooting off balance. In this case, the second barrel on a double can save your life.

For a client who knows what to do, and waits for a proper shot, a single shot is OK. However, when has hunting ever been simple or predictable?

quote:

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Originally posted by NitroExpress.com:

Another thread with Mark Sullivan as the topic. One thing that I got from the video "Africa's Black Death" was the buff charge where the first 600 Nitro was ineffective and it was the second round from the double that bowled the buff over.

Using a single shot in these circumstances would not be pretty.

But also, say if hunting buff, the reasonable (?) likelihood that additional shots would be required to anchor the beast? (please assume a reasonably placed first shot was made) Thanks.

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NitroExpress, would I take a Buffalo with a large bore single shot? Yes, I have done just that. I have three double rifles that are paired up with Ruger No1s of the same chambering as the double rifle, only with scopes. Carried by a tracker I use them for a complex shot, or for a long shot on plains game stumbled onto while hunting with my doubles. With all due respect, The film AFRICA'S BLACK DEATH the double rifle MS was useing was not a 600 NE, but a 500NE, and the first shot in that charge was not a miss, but hit on the bridge of the nose, missing the brain, the second one was right through the brain. A 600NE would most likely have ended the charge with a bullet placed that close to the brain. But this is a fine example of the utility of a double rifle over any other type, in sittuations like this. If he had been useing a single shot 500NE, he would have been toast, but if he had been useing a bolt rifle he would have been in just as much trouble, because he would not have worked that bolt, and got back on target in time.

MS did not use the 600 NE till his later films. BLACK DEATH he used a 500NE, SIMBA he used a 577NE, MBOGO, he used a 577NE, SUDDEN DEATH he used a 450/400Ne 3" The first time I'm aware of he used a 600NE was in the film DEATH ON THE RUN.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

The Ruger #1s are cute and all but not really practical.

OK... maybe I'd (Actually I do) hunt North American game with black powder and I guess I'd use a Shilo Sharps for nostaligic reasons but I'd not hunt Africa with one.

[This message has been edited by TJC (edited 03-29-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by TJC:
Crosshair, I'd be willing to bet you that I can reload my #1 458 Lott a Hell of alot faster than you could reload your Black Powder rifle. As to the original question, Why not?? People, including me have been hunting DG with a single shot bow for years. Come on guys, where's your sense of adventure???

[This message has been edited by TJC (edited 03-29-2002).]

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100% agree. I never hunted DG, but sure will, no doubt about it. Please check "THE RIFLE" by Truesdell.

The point I got from that video (whether or not it was MS and people like him or not) was the importance of an adequate double at close quarters on wounded dangerous game.

The first shot did hit the buffs head but didn't take effect. The second shot to the brain did the work.

As for MS, a lot of other famous hunters in history had similar misses or couldn't get the shot off at all and paid for it, at least with serious injuries. Playing that game will eventually get the hunter in trouble. I think the "Black Death" video was the one that started off the "charges" videos and appears to me to not be a contrived charge.

Mac

You are probably correct that the calibre was a 500NE.

What calibres are your Ruger no. 1's chambered in?

What sort of weight are the rifles and what modifications were necessary? Thanks

***********************

My interest here is I would like to build up a suitable single shot in a large NE calibre (if possible), and if so, would not want to just use it on paper. So was looking for peoples opinions, and have taken them on board.

I would much rather prefer a double, but can't extend the budget that far. Probably will use a bolt action in the future and use the SS as a "fun gun". Though NT water buffalo are a distinct possibility as are camel, donkey etc, just for fun!

Thanks for the replies

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John
alias Nitro

NitroExpress.com

[This message has been edited by NitroExpress.com (edited 03-29-2002).]

I imagine one could rechamber a 45-70 (if they didn't like it) to a 45-110 or -120, as a poor-man's single shot. I'd buy one, just to shoot at targets, I think. ~~~Suluuq

Old 4X4,
The goal is ALWAYS to make the first shot count. The reality is.... it doesn't always work out that way. That fact has sold lots of books (and in MS's case, videos) and created many grave stones.

I still contend the single shot is a novelty (as is my black power rifle) and as a novelty it really belongs above the fireplace and not in an African hunting camp.

Come on guys... if you are going to spend the $$ and time to go to Africa to hunt dangerous game... get a real gun.

That way if you ever hunt dangerous game more than once, or ever, there will be more maimed and killed, driving down demand and safari costs. Go to it.

There is nothing like lack of experience for recommending rifles for DG.

I would readily use a single shot on buffalo for the first shot and in pursuit if backed by another shooter armed with a magazine rifle. Baker used a .577 single shot on lighter dangerous game (not pachyderms) and considered himself to have a rapid fire capability compared with only having 2 or 4 shots (gun bearers can be too far away to be of any aid). If I had to go into thick stuff for the finish I would use a magazine rifle (a double is not an option for me). Good stalking skills, cool nerves and excellent aim would seem to be more important than rapidity of fire.

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black powder rules

I have placed the first shoot perfectly in the top of the heart breaking one shoulder and punching a hole in the other and had to deal with a charge..It happens that way from time to time, although rare it only takes once...A buff can make a lot of tracks with a perfectly placed shot...

So, based on that lets not tell everyone that if you place the first shot properly then all fine and your safe and cozy...also I doubt if one had a 16 inch gun that he would be overgunned for Buffalo, I've seen a few times that I would have traded my 416 for one.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I will stay in camp first boys!

Mr. Atkinson hit the nail on the head. Now according to the book I am reading, it is as Mr. Atkinson states...Things can still go wrong with a good first shot. I will let some other fool play Russian Roulette.

Ray is absolutely right, I have never seen a buffalo, hit right, that went straight down, unless the brain, or spine was hit hard. They all made at least 35 yds before pileing up. That 35 yds is OK if it isn't in your dirrection, butttttttttttttt if it is,and that is all the seperation you have, you better be awake, and load fast. once the adrenelin is up, the bullets have little effect, unless you hit the afore mentioned brain, or spine! IMO, anyone who invites a close in charge is an idiot!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 04-01-2002).]

No, I would not. I think of dangerous game as big animals who have a chance of getting horns, claws, and/or teeth into me. A buffalo at 75 yards does not qualify in the same way the same animal does at 15 yards.

Not that there is anything wrong with shooting from longer distances with a compromised weapon. It's just not the same game.

Inside of 50 feet, you are really in a dangerous situation if the buffalo wants to put you in one. If you get this close with a single shot, your professional hunter knows who's going to be taking the followup shots, and it's not you.

I would rather approach the situation with the opportunity to follow up myself if necessary.

H. C.

Me! Not trying to sell double rifles. Would love to own one though and will one day when the lottery comes in, or a unknown benefactor leaves me one in his/her estate.

Any one out there with a lovely double that wants a new step-son/ward? I don't eat much!

If you have a look at the Big Bore discussion board I posted a message re what's the largest calibre a Ruger No.1 can be built in. A project that I want to do, and was interested in advice from experienced DG hunters what they thought in using it on DG. And also if anyone here is doing it. Good on you. The spirit of adventure is not dead.

What have you shot with your single shot, what calibre and how did it go?

Also the original elephant hunters, I believe, did most of their shooting with large 4 and 8 bore single shots. And I'm sure when the NE calibres arrived some of these would have been single shots. But I think this was more from lack of mechanical design at the time than intent. But if they did it, so can we. Except some of them may have also got squashed a little as well.

I am building a 458 Lott bolt action (also mainly for fun). That would probably be what I use, or alternatively, my trusty 375 M98. The ss will be for fun and BB target shooting and assorted "varmints".

Good hunting

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John
alias Nitro

NitroExpress.com

[This message has been edited by NitroExpress.com (edited 04-02-2002).]

Yes, sure. In the old days, (before my time Ray), people used those rifles. F.C. Selous for instance.

A sportsman to-day has a backup in form of the PH and the PH is not using a singleshot rifle but the hunter can.

If you are touchy and do not want your PH to shoot if the shit hits the fan, then use something else like a magazine rifle or, if you can afford it, a double.

No big animal, elephant, buffalo or rhino will go down direct unless hit in the brain or spine shot, I thought everybody on this forum knew that?

Any of those critters will turn and run AWAY from you when hit. Charges come when you are following up in thick bush, OR you may be charged by some companion you have not seen.

A good shot placement is all that counts. If the animal runs 50-300 yards in opposite direction, so what?

Go carefully up to him and put in a security shot. Always, always!

Hakuna matata
Bjorn

BTW, the "old timers" did use single shots and if you read carefully you will note that they had gun barers and several loaded big bore black powder guns for backup....

Today we have PH's to back you up, so if you get in a jam he can pull your bacon out of the fire and it can happen up close with a single shot and you CANNOT load it fast enough at 10 ft.

Loading a single shot with shaking, fumbling (in all likelyhood) hands should be something to observe not do. Just because someone can shoot and load fast at the country club firing range doesn't mean squat. the only time you need to load fast is up close and personal, then its of no use because your lunch.

If you don't mind the possibility of being saved by your PH and him shooting your Buffalo then a single shot is fine, as is a bow or muzzle loader....

If it were just me alone in the bush, I wouldn't have a single shot and I bet a lot more folks would back off that kick, unless they have never seen a charge by a Lion, Leopard, buffalo or elephant, particularly a Lion IMHO.

Now, this is m view of the subject and not the last word, I'll give that to you....I will also drink to your demise, should the ocassion arise

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

You'll have to forgive me, but I just cannot see it being done...

Fast yes, but not faster no matter where you placed the cartridges, even between the fingers of either hand.

Single shots are mainly bottom lever actions or at least side levers. The right hand (for right handed shooters) has to leave the trigger and wrist of stock and work the lever. So far we are on par with the bolt actions. NOW we differentiate. It then leaves the opening lever, finds the cartridge, loads it, and returns to the lever to close it and returns to trigger and wrist. Yes this can be a very fluid motion. Without butt of gun leaving the shoulder as it shouldn't do; nor should eyes leave the quarry to find the cartridge or load it (in either rifle).

Consider the bolt action. After firing, finger comes off trigger, hand comes off wrist, moves up/forward finding bolt knob, lifts up, pulls back, pushes forward and down. Hand/finger slides back and down to find stock wrist and trigger. Again, without the buttstock leaving shoulder.

Consider:

Timeing of opening the lever and closing it on a single shot = to the timing of working the bolt on a bolt action,

And

Timeing of the hand/fingers leaving single shot = bolt action

You still have:

LEFT OVER TIME of the Single shot due to the fingers gripping the head of cartridge, pulling it out of loop and placing it into chamber.

With practice both can be accomplished quickly, and practice is what it is going to take. However, with as much practice in a bolt as a single shot, I would surmise the working of a bolt action as being twice the
speed of a single shot.

Having said this and getting back to original ?. I would take a single shot to Africa, but only for Leopard and/or plains game.

Coon

Of course, at the time I sincerely wished for a double .475...

Put the rounds between your fingers, sew loops on your shirt,.... whatever...., bolt action or double at the very least from the start.

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V Fulton