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Cutter- That is a great site! Mickey- What happened to that proposal that I think SW floated a year or so ago that stated if you couldn't fit in a coach seat ,then you had to buy two? We discussed it here and most who have had anything close to your experience gave it two thumbs up.I have had flight attendants work hard to resolve those situations when it was brought privatly to the attendant on duty. | |||
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Quote: Those seats next to the exit are sometimes fantastic! I had one from New York to LA. No seat whatsoever in front of me so I could really stretch out. Plus no one next to me as well and just a pretty Czech lady in the aisle seat. Who needs first class. PS I really can't believe your airlines exect passengers to do the crew's work for the - ie opening emergency doors and assisting other passengers. Talk about no training (ie me the dumb passenger) and lack of safety standards (ie the airline)!  But talking about opening pressurized doors I once sat near a door in mid-flight on Air Kenya. An African gentleman watched as his young son in his arms played with the door handle trying his best to open it. The father just watched and the stewardesses just walked straight on by. | |||
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If the shit hits the fan, I don't think there is much anyone can do with the emergency exit (cept repeatedly hit the person using a 'seat guru' on you). Does anyone really believe we are going to use those stupid slides and then swim to safety ?!?!  | |||
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Quote: Or ... One could say that if a wanna-recliner needs more clearance behind his seat so that he can safely recline, the wanna-recliner should buy an upgrade. One could say that. For what it may be worth, I think it is fair to separate guy #1 in back wanting more room to relax and guy #2 in the back having his legs hit with a reclining seat. If guy #1 wants more room, yes, let'm upgrade. As for guy #2, it just seems like a tough case that because someone wants to recline guy #2 has to accept being hit in the knees. Anyway, shouldn't the airlines solve this problem? There is one in Europe that has new planes with no reclining seats. I heard there is also one offering 2-3 steps of "supersize" legroom deals for $50 - $75 for every 2" or so. Some thoughts. | |||
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Quote: No, I expect that you'll quietly sit there, accept your fate, and die. | |||
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Russell, With respect to the "16 different ways", I don't doubt it. I was just with friend over the 4th of July weekend. He is in the Army Special Forces, about 5'9", 155 lbs., and he could probably find about 25 ways or more to kill me. Crazy guy is going back to Iraq to work as a private security guard on a contract basis. With respect to being of the "mind to killing", anyone of that mindset could do it. Heck, I could have killed quite a few on my way to work if I was of the mind to not respect the crosswalk laws and introduce a few pedestrians to the grill of my car. I don't care how tuff anyone is. Come on out to LA, walk the streets of some neighborhoods and try to figure out which teenage gang member is of the mind to put a bullet in you before he asks you for your wallet. There is always someone tougher and crazier then the last guy. Anyway, getting back on the subject, I think our fundamental disagreement is that I view the fully reclined seat as the space of the person in the seat and not the space of the person behind. I do not see it as "Your Space". I believe that "Your Space" includes the space that allows "You" to recline your seat behind you. That is the way it is designed. We are talking about the same volume of air, just in different locations. Yes, I have taken a hard line opinion on this, but I am usually pretty reasonable. If I can help someone out I do it. Previously, I took a flight from Chicago to LAX and the flight was oversold. As I walked to my seat (the last open seat) there was a very large guy in the already seated in the seat next to mine. He had the arm rest up because he probably could not fit without it up. This guy did not want to do this, but there wasn't much else to do. I don't consider Chicago to LAX to be an overly long flight, so I acknowledged the issue with the guy and said we would make due. I squeezed in and we took off. It wasn't comfortable, but it just wasn't that big of a discomfort to me to not help the guy out. Also, on a flight to London last year (12 hour flight) I purchased 3 tickets to accommodate me, my wife, and my then 13 month old child. Many people on this flight let children under 2 just sit on their lap. To me, it would have been not only uncomfortable for me and my wife, but to those around us if we had only purchased 2 tickets. Even so, if we had only purchased two tickets and both people in front of us wanted to recline their seats, I view it as their absolute right to do so and would have no complaints. Tim | |||
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I have to disagree with you, Mr. Taylor, and agree with Mr. Shumba--the tilt space in back is part of that guys space, not the person behind. Think about it, that's the way they are designed. I realize the discomfort you refer to. I don't have your long leg situation, but I am over 6' and weigh 215 witout being fat, so I'm not a pigmy and suffer my share on planes. But I maintain that each paying passenger is entitled to the full space allocation he paid for, regardless if he's big or small. I surely don't smile when the seat in front of me is tilted back, but I am obligated to accept it. Me putting a block on it would not be right--admittedly, nice, and I've thought of it--but not right. | |||
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I'm an airline pilot and therefore spend way too much time deadheading around the country in those munchkin sized seats in coach class. I certainly agree that they're too small for an average sized american, at 6'2" and weighing too much I feel like a pretzel crammed into one. When I'm riding in one my seat gets reclined as soon as the wheels get off of the deck and doesn't get raised until the stewardess comes around telling you to. I'd be highly pissed if someone were to put one of these gizmos on the seat to keep it from reclining. I don't care if the person behind me is too big or not, that reclining seat space is mine, not his, and I'm gonna use it. I'm not gonna get in a fight over it, I'm just gonna tell the stewardess about it and she'll tell you to remove them. If you don't listen then she'll tell the captain and he'll send the first officer back there and he'll tell you to remove it. If it isn't done then you'll be arrested at the destination for interfering with a flight crew along with a bunch of other federal charges including illegally modifying aircraft equipment, etc. The seats are aircraft equipment and as far as the FAA's concerned anything done to stop them working as designed is illegal. If the seat is designed to recline then that space belongs to the occupant, not the guy behind him. A tip for scoring the exit row seats is to ask the agent at the check in counter, they usually won't let you reserve them beforehand. I believe it's a FAA regulation that they look at you before assigning them to assess if you're physically capable of opening the door. Unless the plane is really full I've never had a problem getting an exit row seat. | |||
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Thank you, Boltman. The only problem regarding getting the exit seats is that they are often already spoken for. Supposedly, they don't issue them until 2 hours before the flight. I usually ask for them at check-in, but only get them maybe 30% of the time. Obviously, there are plenty of folks wanting them. | |||
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Quote: Boltman- From reading your post, I'm gonna send up the BS flag... | |||
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Quote: Well, I know, but I don't care. I just truly don't. Jail time isn't much of a threat to me... but that's just me. Regardless, I'd like to apologize to all of you whom I'm inconveniencing with the height that I can't help... which has nothing to do with your behavior, in reclining the seat into my knees, which you can help. See, I realize I'm just supposed to put up with your inconsiderate attitude -- spend money I don't have and don't make on better seats; get an emergency seat at the counter (I've always asked and have only gotten one ONCE... usually, the pygmies beat me to it... but I guess that's my problem too, not yours). I realize that the plane and crew are FAA property, or whatever, and I'm just the peon who pays money for the privilege of letting you destroy my knees. I was out with my dog tonight, and reflecting on life here in America versus where I was a year ago at this time. I came home with my legs. I know guys who did not. I personally, on one particular occasion, expedited a duffle-bag delivery, "around channels," because the owner could not "claim" his bags himself. He'd deliberately left Iraq without his legs and, in his haste, had not bothered to claim his duffle bags. Something about getting medical treatment out of theater, or some lame excuse like that. How dare he. Still, I think of how rude it is of me to expect some UNcommon courtesy out of people like you, who feel that the two or three inches of reclining space is more important than my legs. You're uncomfortable with the seat up? I just don't buy it. Those two or three inches means the world to you? Okay, hey, go for it. Anyway, I was walking my dog tonight, and it occurred to me that I've got legs. I'm not sure most of you can appreciate the fact that "I" appreciate that I don't have stumps. However, I realize as well that we'd not be having this discussion if I'd just had the decency to get my legs blown off so I wouldn't need to buy gadgets to keep YOUR seat up so YOU wouldn't be inconvenienced. It is annoying that I'm just able to fit into my seat, but you, with ample room to maneuver, feel it is important to put your seat back even if it causes me pain. I've been flying for a lot of years. I've tried jockeying for seats before and during the flight. Just saying "I'm too poor to fly first class, but could you get me some leg room?" is NOT enough for "flight attendants" to yank some pygmy out of an emergency row seat. At least it hasn't in the years I've been flying back and forth across the country and to and from Europe. The only time I got some real "appreciation" for my seating difficulty was coming home from Iraq. On THAT flight, I was allowed to move and given a spacious seat elsewhere (not first class, maybe it was this business class that people are talking about). Anyway, that flight, I got to come home in comfort, without the seat in front of me jammed into my knees for many, many hours. I guess the honeymoon's over. It's back to America, where "I'm going to destroy your knees because I can, because this here seatback is MY seatback to do with as I please, and YOU CAN'T STOP ME!" Yup, it's good to be home. I'm supposed to go back to Iraq in 2006; maybe I can do you guys a favor and leave my legs there. I'll see what I can do to help you out. In the meantime, I'm using the little devices, won't remove them, don't give a crap if the plane lands just to throw me in jail, and I frankly don't give rat spit if my name is thrown all over CNN and Fox and any other "gosh-dang" network. Bring on your flight engineer, first officer, or any other FLYING CIVILIAN PYGMY who has a problem with me still having my legs. I realize inconsiderate individuals like you don't represent ALL of America, but it's times like these, with this thread, that I inconvenience you because I -- not by overeating or "doing" anything -- have long legs and, therefore, have my precious legs in the way of your need to destroy my knees... that I'm ashamed. Truly ashamed. Tomorrow, I drive three hours to drill. I used to hate it, since Des Moines isn't my kind of town, but now I look forward to it, because it means I'll be around the only people I can be at home with, "in real life," which are the soldiers I went to war with. We're all pretty much family at this point, and they don't seem to mind that I came home with my long legs still attached. I'm finding out, day by day, why guys like me, coming home, prefer to hang out at the American Legion or the VFW, rather than other places. Yup, next time you see "stumpy" sitting in an airplane seat, guys, make sure you thank him for making it easier for you to recline your seats. You'll make his day. In the words of Steve McQueen as "Tom Horn"... "Consider this my last word on this matter." Hooah. Russ | |||
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Viagra works just as well as the Knee Defendes. For me at least. | |||
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1115- Thats why many of the guys who post here fly either business or exit row. | |||
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Russell Not only do you seem to be more full of shit than usual on this thread you are becoming whiningly pathetic. If you send me your address I'll send you some dirt to eat so you won't have to go outside.  PS When the US Marshals escort you off to the Big House you won't have to worry about going back to Iraq in '06. | |||
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Wow, we were all so clever and conspired so well that I never thought Russell would see through our true intentions "destroying Russell's knees". I have to give him more credit for catching on so quickly.  Russell, quit making it so easy for us to poke fun at you.  Lighten up, man. And no, I still don't believe that you will become a cripple if the person in front of you reclines his seat. With respect to your extensive claim that we all want to see you or any member of our military lose their legs (or be harmed in any way), I know deep down that even you would not expect anyone older than a 5 year old to beleive that.I know that the odds are slim, but let's come to a truce. If you ever get seated behind me on a flight, let's agree to switch seats. Then, when you turn around and ask if you can recline your seat, I will say "please, be my guest". I will even buy you a drink to help make the trip more comfortable. Tim | |||
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Quote:Quote: Okay, then what don't you agree with? | |||
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I arrive about 5 hours early, flash the check-in lady my Red Cross First Aid ticket (Silver medal) and volunteer to be the guy who sits at the emergency exit and who will help all the little old ladies out the plane. Works a treat. Pete | |||
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Quote: Oh, and you can drop the war hero shit, I ain't buying it. Real war heros don't sit around and whine about their time in the service like some welfare queen looking for a handout. I spent 10 years and 2 months in the Marine Corps, yes some of it in a war zone, I've got the medals just like you, and no, I ain't a hero because of it. I just crawled out of an airplane with a guy who did 3 tours in vietnam flying F-100's, a couple of days ago I was flying with a guy who got his jet shot out from under him in cambodia. You can't swing a dead cat around the place I work without hitting a GENUINE war hero. That's where your "flying civilian pygmy" pilots came from. | |||
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Boltman - I second that. Been there, done that - get pissed when I hear a career grunt suggesting that his chosen job of work should elevate him to sainthood. Russell - very grateful Im sure - but dont go believeing what you read in the papers. Time in theatre is payback for the good times that make up 95% of enlisted life. Ian | |||
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The plane designers could solve the my-space/your-space problem nicely as follows. Build plane seats that recline by leaving the head rest fixed and sliding the seat cushion forward, like a living room recliner. That way, if someone wants to recline, he's giving up his own knee space, and he's actually doing the tall guy behind him a favor. Yes, I know, a sliding base isn't anchored as tightly as the fixed bases they now use. It doesn't matter. If the plane crashes, we're all going to die. I would just once like to see a stewardess insist one of those little old ladies demonstrate her ability to get an over-wing exit door off. I suspect that the stewardesses know approximately how many dead, smashed, guts all over the place dead plane crash victims will actually care if that window exit is open or closed. H. C. | |||
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Quote: Excellent. Yet, FYI: Seat makers already offer these. Airlines just have to buy them. | |||
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Quote: Is that a bit early by FAA rules? Quote: So, if the legs of the guy behind you are already hitting your seat back before you recline, you're reclining anyway because it's your space? Quote: At that website it has some newspaper quote from an FAA guy saying no problem with the gizmo. May not be true, but may be. Quote: Maybe it's just me, but I'd think a licensed commercial pilot with a passenger airline would not simply "believe" this but would actually know this. I'm just a civilian, so maybe not. (FAR 121.585) And, maybe these were some of Cold Bore's "concerns". Again, maybe. | |||
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Something for the discussion: "We can see it through the vapor of our breadth - in the clear night over Newfoundland a brilliant point of light hanging in Orion, then passing slowly overhead, a Boeing 747 bucking a hundred-mile-per-hour head wind westward. Back in steerage where the package tours go, the fifty-two members of Old World Fantasy, a tour of eleven countries in seventeen days, are returning to Detroit and Windsor, Canada. Shoulder room is twenty inches. Hip room between armrests is twenty inches. This is two inches more space than a slave had on the Middle Passage. ... The passengers are being slopped with freezing-cold sandwiches of slippery meat and processed cheese food, and are re-breathing the farts and exhalations of others in economically reprocessed air, a variation on the ditch-liquor principle established by the cattle and pig merchants in the 1950s. ... Travellors in the row ahead, their chairs cranked back until Dr. Lecter can smell their hair, look back through the crack between seats. "We're trying to sleep up here." " Thomas Harris "Hannibal"  | |||
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At 6'3", 220 lbs I certainly understand the pain of flying coach. While some aircraft are better (or worse) than others, putting up with the small seats is my lot in life. I do not expect others to be put upon because I am larger than the average flyer. To those of you who feel others should compromise their comfort because God mad you a little taller than the average person should get a grip and deal with it. I have to wonder what perpetuates this attitude. The world owes us nothing, we get out what we put in. If you are that uncomfortable, figure out a way to fly business class or coach+ or whatever. A few here have become a major dissapointment | |||
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Interesting, sitting is a less comfortable position than reclining but sitting is certainly not an uncomfortable position. So in the quest for MORE comfort at the same price, some people have the right to make me absolutely uncomfortable by invading my space and further I have absolutely no chance to reciprocate. Makes sense to me. | |||
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