Found this on another site.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=4743445&posted=1#post4743445

Just shows you it can be done.

Gerhard

I remember seeing a video of I believe Tink Nathan taking an elephant in Tanz. He buried that first arrow right to the fletch. I remember that they pounded one small shaft into a larger shaft and filled the smaller one with sand. I dont remember how many grains it weighed but I do remember it was one of the ugliest bows I have every seen. An Oneida if I remember.

Paul C

Not MY cup of tea. Probably good "stunt video"..... "and we came back the next day and it was dead".

Not knocking bow hunters, but this BAD press for all hunters!

AzGuy, are those grapes that sour!

If I remember correctly Gary Bogner shot completely through an elephant in the Selous with his bow. They also didn't find it until the next day. Barrie Duckworth had a client kill a very nice bull on the Save last year with a bow. I think you have to take the perfect shot but it is completely doable.

Mark

Thought you guys would want to know that this is Theresa Groenwald, former wife of Janneman Groenwold both still principles of OOA Safaris in SA. I have heard her say she is a PH in SA.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
AzGuy, are those grapes that sour!

No sour grapes here. I would not "arrow" an Ele if you paid me. She wanted to do it, I assume it is legal, so OK. I still think it relects poorly on all hunters ..... "and we found it dead the next day". Probably a better chance for a quick humane kill with a .243 and solids.... I would NOT do that either.

WEll... I'm "man enough" to congratulate her. Anyone here that feels that what she did challenges their manhood or is somehow wrong well... You are your own reward... I can't believe that ANY hunter would do less than congratulate and admire her!



I somehow doubt I'd have the courage to stick an arrow in an elephant while standing inside a herd of them.

One tough gal and I hope we all conduct ourselves as gentlemen (and ladies) here.

$bob$

Stunt hunting is stunt hunting, no matter who is doing it.

JPK

Kirk Mason, who I elephant hunted with last year has taken about two dozen elephant for bow hunters. He said the 45# his client shot about two weeks before I arrived went about 250 yards after the shot, which was the furthest any of the elephant had gone. He said the shot was not great and he consdered giving it the 500 Jeffery as it ran off, but decided not to.

For me there's just something about hunting elephants with the shoulder cannon that can't be duplicated with the bow.

The shot was late in the day, the elephant was part of a good sized herd and they elected to make the recovery the next morning.Happens all the time with both bow and RIFLE hunters.

Hunting with a bow requires the hunter to get into DG range.Shooting 83 lbs requires a lot of hard work and training.I imagine that many who are bad mouthing this incredible young lady do not have the stones to do either one of those things.

Has anyone seen the video "Quest for Zimbabwean Big Game?" Jack Brittingham in that video tries to shoot an elephant in Zim with a bow unsuccessfully. So they included some footage of a Mozambique hunt where he'd kills a 100 pounder. Kinda tragic that he had to leave that bull there. It's a hell of a tusker.

I sure get tired of people who condemn other hunters who choose to hunt with a weapon that don’t meet their approval. Just because someone hunts with a weapon that you don’t like does not make it a stunt. It’s this elitist attitude that is going to ruin hunting for everybody. Remember we are all on the same side. If we continue with putting fellow hunters down because of the weapon they chose (assuming it is legal) we are just playing into the anti hunting crowds hands. To continue to hunt as we know it not only do we ALL have to be on the same side we have to be marching in the same direction.
Come on guys get with the program before we lose all hunting.

By the way I want to congratulate the lady on a great elephant and hope she will continue to hunt anyway she wants, more power to her!

If you're allowed to shoot elephants with a bow then why in the heck is the 375 H&H the legal minimum rifle cartridge in most countries? Why can't we start using 6.5x55 or 7x57 with solids?

TH - cause that is what the burocracy arbitrarily chose.

MtElkHunter,

I don't buy into what you are saying. But even if I did all the video equipment, the shceduled TV time, etc, laid out in the post says loud and clear that this is a "LOOK AT ME!!!" hunt and that makes it a stunt hunt.

Ele are left for next day recovery for sure, but not next day follow up. That only happens when there is a foul up.

JPK

Lets see.... backing out of 37 elephants having just arrowed one right at dark?
I don't know,, sounds reasonable to me.
Ask the lady if she was back trailing her elephant at daylight the next morning or if she slept a wink all night as you are shaking her hand

Let's see- Don't have the nads for it so let's talk bad about someone that did.

"It was shot near dark. We went back the next day and found him."

Not "arrowed one right at dark". No follow up effort at all. Ever been elephant hunting?

JPK

I am not talking about the video equipment/ tv time etc. I am talking about the weapon she picked to hunt with. My point is we as sportsman should not decry a fellow hunter becasue he/she decided to hunt with a bow, muzzleloader, shotgun etc as long as it was legal and all people involved (hunter, PH, outfitter etc) knew and agreed to the weapon choice ahead of time. When someone make statements like "this was a stunt", "he/she did not use the proper weapon" etc all we are doing is giving ammo to the anti hunting groups.

Just to see what the enemy is doing I will once in a shile browse the anti hunting sights and you would be amazed at the number of times they pick up quotes like this and use them to show how "bad" hunters in general are. The old saying of "united we stand divided we fall" is going to really be true for sportsman. I say sportsman because ALL sportsman from rifle hunters to archery hunters to bird hutners need to quit bickering and stand togeather. I hate to say it but I don't see the anti hunting crowd bickering about what hunting is good and what hunting is bad. They are pretty united that all hunting is bad and unless we we get togeather we are going to lose and then what weapon you have will be a moot point.

No JPK , you got me there.I have been in among them however.Also have taken DG with my bow.Specifically , a cape buffalo.If someone wants to sponsor an ele hunt for me under the same circumstances that this young lady hunted under, then I am in 100%. And if I never get that opportunity I will still applaud her for her success.

if you proceed under the circumstances she descibes you won't get to hunt elephant twice

ravenr-Not sure what you mean, will she not get another chance if she so desires.Or are you saying that I would not do as well as she did.

I admire anyone who gets an elephant, bow, spear, gun, etc., Bravo! good job!

The only part that I don't like is "It was shot near dark. We went back the next day and found him." There was no description of where the shot landed, how the elephant reacted, what the hunter's or PH's opinion of the lethality of the shot was, etc. Just an 'I shot it and came back the next day and it was dead'. This can present a poor picture of an ethical and responsible hunter.

IMHO, any shot that you take where you don't know with near certainty what the outcome is, is a bad shot. There are many variables and 'could haves' but the responsible hunter should feel with a high level of certainty that they have made a good/humane shot at the time.

Anything less is "not my cup of tea" either.

i understood the lady to have shot the ele close to dark in a herd of 37 animals,to attempt a follow up under these circumstances imo would be foolhardy with a bow in hand.

ravenr-on that point I surely agree with you.I assume (but do not know) that this was the reson for follow-up in the am.Gary Bogner did much the same thing.He shot his bull well and the bull went down fairly quickly I have heard.The problem was that the other elephants did not want to give up their pal so easily.I suppose they could have forced the issue , but the decision was made to let the elephants wander off in their own do time.The elephant was recovered quite easily the next day.

I do not know the details of this recovery but have every reason to expect it was a similar circumstance.

another point i would make in her defense would be the amount of time you should wait to trail an arrow hit animal(DG or not).blood looked to be right behind the shoulder indicating a good hit.you gotta have BIG tusks to wade into 37 (indicating a cow- calf herd)and deliever a 12 yd shot.i don't even want to contemplate doing it with a camera crew.my hat is off to the hunter and i wish she were MY grandmother so i could sit on her knee and hear the story over and over

In today's world, all tropy hunting is some of stunt. It's just that some hunts are set up so's one can have the odds in your favor. It's not my thing to use a bow and hunt but I do applaud the young lady for pulling off this "stunt." If you read the report, she didn't have the time nor the safe opportunity to trail it up.

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
i understood the lady to have shot the ele close to dark in a herd of 37 animals,to attempt a follow up under these circumstances imo would be foolhardy with a bow in hand.

Yes, and this is what a stunt hunt is. It isn't about the hunt, the challenge, the thrill, a clean or humane kill; it is about "LOOK AT ME!!!."

Fjold,

Your quote: "IMHO, any shot that you take where you don't know with near certainty what the outcome is, is a bad shot." Says it all.

For those who haven't been elephant hunting, which seem to be all of the lady's admirers, to be in the midst of 37 eles - and really no one is counting past maybe fifteen or twenty - is just another day. If you take your shot, you follow your game to insure that 1. it is dead and suffers no more and 2. it is no danger to anyone else. To fail to follow up is both heartless and reckless in the same moment.

This hunt fails to make the grade of an ethical hunt. That a bow and a woman were involved is just noteworthy fact. If it were a man and a 500NE it would still be a stunt hunt and fail the grade, imo.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
i understood the lady to have shot the ele close to dark in a herd of 37 animals,to attempt a follow up under these circumstances imo would be foolhardy with a bow in hand.

...which is what made it a stunt. She couldn't follow up because she was not appropriately armed for an elephant hunt.
------------------------------------------------

There is a good point to be made in 400 Nitro Expresses post. But perhaps the point is, "if you aren't properly armed for an elephant hunt, and all of its ramifications, including follow up, at least do it in circumstances that allow all of the ehical action required to be taken.

Short version, "Don't shoot an elepant if you are not willing and able to follow it up."

JPK

Perhaps the best thing would have been not to take the shot at last light on an elephant in that situation? Or take it with the understanding that the PH will fire "to kill" the elephant as soon as the arrow hits the animal!

But it happens all the time with all sorts of weapons, appropriate or not. That doesn't make it a "stunt hunt" in my book.

This thread and the elephant intelligence thread both clearly illustrate that, when you decide that you will apply your own "ethics" and decide what animals should and shouldn't be killed, AND HOW, based on "intelligence" or any other issue that isn't pure science or sound game management then you can't help but fall into the hands of the PETA type movements.

I think we need to SERIOUSLY take a look at ANY hunter that questions a hunters ethics, morals, or motives, beyond that which is dictated by law.

You can COUNT on reading your own words used in arguments used by PETA etc. and you WILL be quoted out of context.

You can COUNT on doing damage to ALL hunter's ability to continue to harvest game GLOBALLY when you spout off this touchy feely crap.

Face it boys and girls. Killing animals with handheld weapons is often a messy business and there will be some suffering associated with that both in the actual animal targeted and animals of that particular animal's social and family group.

If that makes you feel squeamish then I suggest you either quit hunting and keep it to yourself, or suffer being treated as someone from the other camp, namely the bunny huggers etal.

It's about time we drew a line and announce that whoever crosses it will wear the label of anti-hunter.

I'm tired of people trying to sit on the fence and taking pot shots at both sides of the argument.

You're either for us or you're against us. If you CLAIM to be for us but keep spouting off on this ethics issue or touchy feely crap that ISN'T mandated by law then you're even worse and I, for one, will treat you as a spy in our camp.

If you fit that description then you're someone to be despised by BOTH sides and I CERTAINLY will no longer consider you a hunter!

$bob$

Well said LD.

Thanks... It's gotten to where we can't have an intelligent discussion about hunting without being assaulted by the danged bunny huggers.

It seems that every single time somone shoots something that doesn't die immediately right on the spot we end up defending hunting and the thread becomes a war.

It's time we rooted out the PETA spys and send them packing.

$bob$

Perhaps we can talk Saeed into giving the people that are so concerned about hunting ethics their own sub forum so they can discuss it all they want, and if any of us hunters from the old school that want to argue with them, we can go there and fight until our heart is content.

But as it stands now this forum has nearly been ruined by the bunny huggers and I'd like to see it stop.

$bob$

I find it interesting that I agree with JPK that as a hunter we are responsible to make a quick and humane kill, Though I do not believe that immediately tracking a shot animal is the best idea.
A double lung shot, bow or gun is going to be fatal. I have seen way too many hunters take up a trail too quickly and push an animal much further than he would otherwise have gone. I have seen many hunters in North America and Africa immediately start chasing an animal after the shot because they are impatient, not to insure a humane kill.

Well said LD. I am of the old school of hunting and as I said in my previous post I get so tired of people tearing down someone's success because he/she did not do it the "correct" way. I some times think allot of hunters today have the "envy" syndrome where if someone gets a better animal or does something they have not done they are so envious that they condemn them instead of congratulating them. I was raised to enjoy others success and I do.

Ok all "spin" aside. I've never hunted ele's so go ahead and jump on me all you want about not knowing what I'm talking about.

Arrows kill by hemmoraege (sp) and even a perfect hear shot allows the animal to go until the oxygen is depleted. I don't know how far an elephant would go. A deer usually poops out within 40 yards. A brain shot ele drops immideately and I suppose the herd must scatter at the sound of the gun. Makes perfect sense to go the next day and retreive the game. Especially since she probably wasn't worried about meat quality!!

How many animals are shot at dusk- lots. That's why we hear the argument for and against illuminitated reticles. So hunters can shoot in almost dark conditionSo the rifle hunters must be shooting "near dusk" also.

Since most safaris are videoed now there seems to be a certain sense of "stunting" in most of these situations. Pretty poor to act like a bunch of PITA freaks simply because she used a different tool to hunt with.

shape up guys


The chef

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Well said LD.

I'll second that!

If any of you post pictures of your succesful hunts here, is that a "Look at ME"?

Next it'll be you can't hunt ele unless you have atleast $5k engraveing on your double and no bolt rifles allowed or it's not traditional.