Dave,

Back to the thread and would you host this website? I can give you a hand with design and photographs from my side and there are many here who are excellent photographers and can be approached for images. I suspect many here could offer other required services or support.

Might be worth suggesting and searching for a domain name? hunt.com or hunting.com would be an obvious one?

Once we have an opening statement or summary of what we are about we could open up a Facebook site and invite all here and more as friends.

Someone needs to get hold of Craig and Peter to see if they will release some copy for the site?

Would need some research on the origins of hunting and a draw a comparison between subsistance and sport hunting.

As far as I know all African communities attached to hunting concessions receive incomes and other spin offs from safari hunting and therefore rather than have each country represented could we not give an overall picture? Obviously there would be references to certain countries and specific models.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Aren't you guys reinventing the wheel?

We already have several organisations out there such as John Jackson/Conservation Force and also SCI to mention just two......

Surely yet another organisation is just going to fragment the hunters and their arguments even further?

I'd suggest that if you want to do something, you should give money to JJ/CF who has been doing a very fine job on what is probably a relatively limited for a considerable number of years.

Steve,

You have a wealth of information and are familiar with website design and now you are semi retired this could be of interest to you?

I hear what you are saying but lets give it a bash old chap?

Cheers

Andrew

Don't get me involved mate..... I'm far too busy at the moment and nowhere near convinced enough about any part of it to become involved in any way at all with it.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Don't get me involved mate..... I'm far too busy at the moment and nowhere near convinced enough about any part of it to become involved in any way at all with it.

OK mate. When you coming this side so I can buy you that beer I owe you?

Not for a while my friend..... I'm going to be far too busy packing, gapping, house hunting and fishing etc for the foreseeable future I'm afraid..... we'll manage it one day though!

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
http://safaritalk.net/index.php?showtopic=7291

'The same goes for hunting. It's a sport, for recreation, for fun. It is not conservation. You don’t go out and shoot a lion because you are a good conservationist. Hunting happens because you are selfish and want to kill something for yourself. We have to stop kidding ourselves that hunters do it for conservation. Conservation is the justification for what is basically a selfish act, and even then once you pick at it you realize that hunting is not conservation at all. If it was, once hunters knew that lions were in danger of extinction then of course they would stop.'

No-one ever said that hunting is conservation. Hunting is a conservation tool, one of the best, that goes hand in hand with setting aside areas for wildlife and/or giving value to species that empower local indigenous people to tolerate species they come into conflict with.

I don't think an 'about hunting' website is needed. What is needed is an 'about conservation' website...

However, there is still a huge debate about whether sustainable resource use is actually compatible with conservation, so it is an uphill struggle.

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
http://safaritalk.net/index.php?showtopic=7291

'The same goes for hunting. It's a sport, for recreation, for fun. It is not conservation. You don’t go out and shoot a lion because you are a good conservationist. Hunting happens because you are selfish and want to kill something for yourself. We have to stop kidding ourselves that hunters do it for conservation. Conservation is the justification for what is basically a selfish act, and even then once you pick at it you realize that hunting is not conservation at all. If it was, once hunters knew that lions were in danger of extinction then of course they would stop.'

No-one ever said that hunting is conservation. Hunting is a conservation tool, one of the best, that goes hand in hand with setting aside areas for wildlife and/or giving value to species that empower local indigenous people to tolerate species they come into conflict with.

I don't think an 'about hunting' website is needed. What is needed is an 'about conservation' website...

However, there is still a huge debate about whether sustainable resource use is actually compatible with conservation, so it is an uphill struggle.

It may be an uphill struggle, but sustainable-use is increasingly being accepted within the broader environmental community.

I just conducted a workshop at the Society for Ecological Restoration World Conference promoting SU and using game-ranching and CBNRM as the two most successful models, not only for natural-resource-management, but for ecosystem-restoration.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Dave,

Back to the thread and would you host this website? I can give you a hand with design and photographs from my side and there are many here who are excellent photographers and can be approached for images. I suspect many here could offer other required services or support.

Might be worth suggesting and searching for a domain name? hunt.com or hunting.com would be an obvious one?

Once we have an opening statement or summary of what we are about we could open up a Facebook site and invite all here and more as friends.

Someone needs to get hold of Craig and Peter to see if they will release some copy for the site?

Would need some research on the origins of hunting and a draw a comparison between subsistance and sport hunting.

As far as I know all African communities attached to hunting concessions receive incomes and other spin offs from safari hunting and therefore rather than have each country represented could we not give an overall picture? Obviously there would be references to certain countries and specific models.

I certainly don't think I should host the site fairgame, there are many more guys out there who are more qualified to do that, with more clout. By host you mean manage, I gather? I am prepared to if nobody else will, because I confident that a site like this could do a lot of good. Certainly I will represent Zim and rally the Zim guys to contribute. I think we should have as many administrators as countries involved. One guy representing each country and members from each country submitting relevant gen to their particular rep. I agree with the overall picture plan, but still each country will need to contribute.

I have been speaking with a guy here in the Falls who has set up many websites and is happy to help. He can start putting it together towards the end of the month when he is available. Maybe someone can start before then? The domain name will cost a small amount but I have no problem covering that.

Facebook is also a great idea, but again such a page will need more than one administrator. I for example have no idea what goes on in Zambia...And also it could get very big.

Let's put it together guys, it will be well worth the effort. For virtually no money in, we could do something really positive here. So far we have a guy in Zim and a guy in Zambia...

I will speak with this website chap now about a domain name. We also need a name for the site.

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
http://safaritalk.net/index.php?showtopic=7291

'The same goes for hunting. It's a sport, for recreation, for fun. It is not conservation. You don’t go out and shoot a lion because you are a good conservationist. Hunting happens because you are selfish and want to kill something for yourself. We have to stop kidding ourselves that hunters do it for conservation. Conservation is the justification for what is basically a selfish act, and even then once you pick at it you realize that hunting is not conservation at all. If it was, once hunters knew that lions were in danger of extinction then of course they would stop.'

No-one ever said that hunting is conservation. Hunting is a conservation tool, one of the best, that goes hand in hand with setting aside areas for wildlife and/or giving value to species that empower local indigenous people to tolerate species they come into conflict with.

I don't think an 'about hunting' website is needed. What is needed is an 'about conservation' website...

I agree, with hunting obviously being a part of it. As you say it's a tool, simply part of the equation

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
http://safaritalk.net/index.php?showtopic=7291

'The same goes for hunting. It's a sport, for recreation, for fun. It is not conservation. You don’t go out and shoot a lion because you are a good conservationist. Hunting happens because you are selfish and want to kill something for yourself. We have to stop kidding ourselves that hunters do it for conservation. Conservation is the justification for what is basically a selfish act, and even then once you pick at it you realize that hunting is not conservation at all. If it was, once hunters knew that lions were in danger of extinction then of course they would stop.'

No-one ever said that hunting is conservation. Hunting is a conservation tool, one of the best, that goes hand in hand with setting aside areas for wildlife and/or giving value to species that empower local indigenous people to tolerate species they come into conflict with.

I don't think an 'about hunting' website is needed. What is needed is an 'about conservation' website...

However, there is still a huge debate about whether sustainable resource use is actually compatible with conservation, so it is an uphill struggle.

It may be an uphill struggle, but sustainable-use is increasingly being accepted within the broader environmental community.

Yes, and sustainable use is what the emphasis should be on

I will simplify this. If people want to eat game meat then provide it and in vast quantities.

What ever model the private sector wants to impliment should go hand in hand with productive game farms that provide a ready supply of protein. This is not safari hunting but farming as such and can undercut the price of illegal game meat.

It may sound crazy at first, but getting an A-list celebrity to come out and say they hunt could counteract a lot of the anti's propaganda. Imagine someone like Brad Pitt (or Heaven forbid, one of the Kardashians) talking about a hunting safari in People Magazine extolling the benefits to the animals in terms of populations as a whole, the employment it creates, and the conservation of habitat.

Problem is that doing so might move them off the A-List.

quote:

Originally posted by cable68:
It may sound crazy at first, but getting an A-list celebrity to come out and say they hunt could counteract a lot of the anti's propaganda. Imagine someone like Brad Pitt (or Heaven forbid, one of the Kardashians) talking about a hunting safari in People Magazine extolling the benefits to the animals in terms of populations as a whole, the employment it creates, and the conservation of habitat.

Problem is that doing so might move them off the A-List.

Oprah did it so did Sarah Palin (spelling?)

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I will simplify this. If people want to eat game meat then provide it and in vast quantities.

What ever model the private sector wants to impliment should go hand in hand with productive game farms that provide a ready supply of protein. This is not safari hunting but farming as such and can undercut the price of illegal game meat.

Well simplified, it is an excellent plan. I cannot think why this hasn't been done before. It makes much sense. My plan has been based on irrigation and that is what I will inevitably end up starting with. As a one man band, it is the most doable plan. But wildlife farming is, of course, the most logical choice. I cannot understand why the major wildlife conservancies in the lowveld haven't yet done something this. With all the breeding stock, resources, know how at their disposal. All they have to do is make friends with the Chief...What a public relations coup it would be, making real allies of the locals. And they shouldn't kid themselves that they are friends right now. What a time to implement such a project, perfect timing. I don't want to suggest that private landowners in the lowveld have not contributed to communities - my great grandfather, grandfather, great uncle, father and many other ranchers/farmers have contributed huge amounts to local lowveld communities over the last ninety years or so, from dip tanks, to clinics, irrigation projects, hunting partnerships, the hunts conducted in the communal land...so on and so forth. But thatw as in the good old days, times have changed and a major thrust is required. Across the Save River from the Save conservancy is the most rundown Zimbabwean communal land I have yet seen, Chibuwe/Checheche. It is the springboard and sanctuary for the vast majority of the poachers who enter the conservancy. Zimbabwe's biggest drainage system runs between the Save conservancy and Chibuwe for God knows how many miles, all that water running off, through Mozambique and into the ocean.....What a waste. On the riverbanks can be seen the poverty stricken folk, watching the water flow by, no plan...Hopefully the aid truck will pull in soon...Thousands of unused hectares in Chibuwe, perfect to pop a high game fence around, just needs a bit of arranging..Save River hunting frontage on both sides, for what would be the most unbelievable spiral horned experience imaginable...Huge potential for a productive irrigation scheme, using already cleared but fallow land. Major income generating/job creating public relations coup lying fallow there...But only if the community is on-sides. I have met Chief Musikavanhu, he is a very approachable middle-aged fellow with a progressive way of thinking. He wants the best for his area and is open to suggestion, as are all the other chiefs/headmen I have met on my travels. All it needs is to really open up the lines of communication, not continue pretending to be friends, but to become friends. I am prepared to help them achieve this friendship if they want, but that have a number of guys working there who could do it. fairgame you have the plan and you are doing it my friend. You are securing that African wildlife area and I commend you. Here there is the odd chap trying but it needs more than that. True cohesion between landowners, hunting operators and communities is needed, and a concerted effort made on as big a scale possible. And when that effort is made we will make it front-page news everywhere. Every conservation area in Africa should be doing this now. I personally am more concerned with doing something in Dande right now, with the Vadoma people. It will be easier to get going and make progress, one man band as I am. As far as the Save conservancy is concerned, it is difficult to lead a dozen self-made, tough old white bulls down to the Save to drink and meet with a dozen or so equally as tough old black bulls....Getting them all to graze together? That's an even bigger issue...

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by cable68:
It may sound crazy at first, but getting an A-list celebrity to come out and say they hunt could counteract a lot of the anti's propaganda. Imagine someone like Brad Pitt (or Heaven forbid, one of the Kardashians) talking about a hunting safari in People Magazine extolling the benefits to the animals in terms of populations as a whole, the employment it creates, and the conservation of habitat.

Problem is that doing so might move them off the A-List.

It doesn't sound crazy to me, it sounds like a great idea and we should try anything and everything to further our agenda. I have heard that Kurt Russell likes to hunt. The Save conservancy should offer him a free hunt and stop bumbling about with their raffle hunt plan, which has not been done as I told them to do it years ago when I suggested the plan, and has not achieved anything like what we originally had in mind. That hunt raffle should be all about communities, about winning them over, hearts and minds, productive irrigation project, jobs, hunting bushbuck on the Chibuwe side of the river! Not about employing more scouts to try and stem the never-ending tide, and having to hold another raffle next year to employ even more...Rather hold one major raffle - 21 days/completely free of charge/big 4- big promotion, draw at a major banquet in the states, doing it for reasons which will drum up support, for communities/conservation...Not just to buy some more shotguns or whatever..This is not a criticism - the most senior of those old white bulls know how much I respect them - it is just time to change tack, and the change needs to be made now.

This subject is close to home as you may have gathered, and all that I have said above is simply because I love that home, my musha.

I cannot think of anyone better than Kurt Russell to offer a free hunt. I'm sure we'd get more attention if we roped in Britney, but maybe Kurt will have to do. Sarah palin would be good too. I will write to Zambezi Hunters/Roger Whittall/Willy Pabst/Clive Stockil/Barrie Duckworth etc and ask them if they'll consider offering Kurt/Sarah a free hunt. They wouldn't need to sacrifice too much loot, they could add an elephant bull and a male lion to the collective conservancy quota for one year, they have plenty, for the time being...Leopard donated by Willy, buffalo by Roger, a sable from Clive, some plainsgame from the Duckworths...In business, I can't see what the problem would be. Major public relations coup there with Kurt in the equation...Film crew, Kurt, white bulls and black bulls all touring the conservancy/community irrigation project, game farm, fish farm, happy locals beaming for the cameras, bellies full, monthly wages in pocket..More and more of them rejecting the poaching gangs, realizing who is worth more to them, seeing it with their own eyes...

Dave

Hi Dave, Andrew, & all,

I have been out of pocket for a while. The LCTF, Aaron, and I will collaborate. The Joubert's are some of our greatest adversaries.

The LCTF has just been organized as a non-profit organization and we are still working through the red-tape before we can accept money but should be ready shortly.

When we put up our website...we might be interested in hosting this as well.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Hi Dave, Andrew, & all,

I have been out of pocket for a while. The LCTF, Aaron, and I will collaborate. The Joubert's are some of our greatest adversaries.

The LCTF has just been organized as a non-profit organization and we are still working through the red-tape before we can accept money but should be ready shortly.

When we put up our website...we might be interested in hosting this as well.

Excellent news, thank you Lane, good to hear from you.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
Hunting for Sustainability

Thanks Steve