Got back Sunday night from a week of mountain mule deer hunting in Alberta. Awesome hunt, and will tie me over until March when I'll be hunting ele's with Buzz Charlton again.

But it got me thinking...Africa can really spoil a person, as it sets the bar quite high. The entire experience and in particular the performance and personality of the PH's is so vastly superior to most anything that NA has to offer, that especially lower-cost NA hunts just come up short.

Thankfully I think I finally found a pro-guide who I can hunt with again and again, and who offers what I have come to respect, appreciate and count on from a PH/guide. I posted a full report w/picts over on the Hunt Reports - Rest of the World forum: Mtn Mule Deer Report

On the high-end, most of the sheep hunts in Canada should be good, as can be the big bear hunts/guides in Alaska. But for me, even these have been hit and miss. What about the rest of you guys, any of your North America experiences come close to those in Africa? Are we too "picky"?

Bill C

The keyword is pro-guide. So many are part time people who hunt 3-4 weeks a year. I have had a couple guides, nice people, but were not really acquainted with the territory,etc. If I put as much effort into sorting out the NA guides as I do in Africa, maybe the result would have been better.
Now you had to mention Buzz Charlton, which raises the bar even higher, even for Africa. Buzz and his team are about as good as is offered. But in all fairness, Charlton and other PH's are full time dedicated professionals who have selected big game hunting as a profession.

Expect you to best JK's record of 9 eles in 20 days when you return in March, .

Dak

Bill:
Here's my thoughts.
I would never hunt with a guide who does not live in the area hunted. I imagine you hunted with a local guide. I think most guides in Canada are locals, and not from another area.
In Alaska, some of the well known guides do not live here year around. Some of them claim to live in their area year round, and they don't. They are there during the season and then back to Anchorage or some other city.
I've been around Alaskan guides for 40 years and know a few of them. Not ALL of the local guides are good, but I think the percentage is higher for them than the outsiders.
I would never go to Africa and hunt with a PH who is from Wa., CA. or Alaska. I was a guide for a while and don't need some guy to hold my hand. I want the extra expertise of a local.

Bill,

You are comparing apples and oranges. There are PH's I would not care to hunt with and the percentage of good ones may not be much different than the good ones in the US.

One gets spoiled going to Africa. You deal with guys that are in the business nearly full-time. They have a relatively long, nearly 365 days a year season and the "growing season" for the animals is the same, where in the cold regions of the US the animals struggle to survive most of the year much less drop any calves.

Except for poaching there is relatively little competition for the game in Africa. Can you imagine hunting in PA if you were one of only a couple dozen guys hunting. You'd be passing up 7x7 whitetails!

And until the '60s there wasn't much of a hunting industry in Africa, even for you guys with the big bucks. I was just lucky to come along at an opportune little span of time of African hunting history when po' folk like me could send the kids to college and also sneak in a hunt or two.

And I might mention that I have loved every minute of it!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:


And I might mention that I have loved every minute of it!

I hope that this does not mean you have retired from hunting.

while I loved my hunt in Africa, I'd never trade it in on a mountain hunt. Like was said you're comparing a hunt thats most liley on flay dry ground in summer time weather to trips in snow and ice in the mountains. Also you would likely will have a staff of 10 or more on an african trip where as any NA trip you'll be lucky to have a guide, cook and maybe a camp boy. Hunts in NA are not geared toward the guy that can't wipe his own ass nor wants too. IMO their geared toward the people that are looking for the adventure.

To be honest, I'd rather go on Safari stay in a tent and hunt on my own if I could than stay in a 5 star camp. I could care less about all the pampering etc. If I wanted to be pampered I'd go to Sandels or place similar. Also could you imagine what a safari would cost if dollars were equalized across the board?

if it wasn't for wiping asses what would south african guides be good for ?

quote:

Originally posted by Ivan:
while I loved my hunt in Africa, I'd never trade it in on a mountain hunt. Like was said you're comparing a hunt thats most liley on flay dry ground in summer time weather to trips in snow and ice in the mountains. Also you would likely will have a staff of 10 or more on an african trip where as any NA trip you'll be lucky to have a guide, cook and maybe a camp boy. Hunts in NA are not geared toward the guy that can't wipe his own ass nor wants too. IMO their geared toward the people that are looking for the adventure.

To be honest, I'd rather go on Safari stay in a tent and hunt on my own if I could than stay in a 5 star camp. I could care less about all the pampering etc. If I wanted to be pampered I'd go to Sandels or place similar. Also could you imagine what a safari would cost if dollars were equalized across the board?

quote:

if it wasn't for wiping asses what would south african guides be good for ?

..hopefully not having to guide the likes of you...

Will, interesting comment, there will be more "hunters" in Penns woods on the first day of this season than have EVER hunted Africa, exclusive of the native population.

You guys really think so?

I've seen the numbers at about 1,000,000 hunters in the PA woods on opening day of deer season. I'm assuming that most of the people that have hunted Africa are repeat hutners and/or lived there?

Can't wait to get back to PA, and hopefully meet up with some of you fellas sometime.

Sorry to hijack your thread Bill C.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
Got back Sunday night from a week of mountain mule deer hunting in Alberta. Awesome hunt, and will tide me over until March when I'll be hunting ele's with Buzz Charlton again.

But it got me thinking...Africa can really spoil a person, as it sets the bar quite high. The entire experience and in particular the performance and personality of the PH's is so vastly superior to most anything that NA has to offer, that especially lower-cost NA hunts just come up short.

Thankfully I think I finally found a pro-guide who I can hunt with again and again, and who offers what I have come to respect, appreciate and count on from a PH/guide. I posted a full report w/picts over on the Hunt Reports - Rest of the World forum: Mtn Mule Deer Report

On the high-end, most of the sheep hunts in Canada should be good, as can be the big bear hunts/guides in Alaska. But for me, even these have been hit and miss. What about the rest of you guys, any of your North America experiences come close to those in Africa? Are we too "picky"?

Bill,

I think it is just different. One is just plain better than the other and so we tend to enjoy it more.

I'll compare my 77 Chevy Luv truck I drove in high school to the new loaded Chev Crew cab I drive now. The latter is just a much better vehicle and a pleaure to drive.

I think the hunting in NA is just not as good, the Guides are just not the same as a PH in Africa.

Spoiled? Perhaps, Too picky..... not so sure on that one, I think we can't use the same expectations in NA as we do in Africa.....

Thats my thougths on the matter, nice topic Bill

My take is a little different. I'm in the business but it is just an opinion. On a comparitive basis, largely due to economic opportunities, PHing in Africa represents a significantly better opportunity ON AVERAGE than does guiding in NA. Seasons in NA are relativly short when compared to Africa.Hence I feel that more high quality folks are attracted to the industry in Africa, while in NA there is the painter, insulator, sheetrocker stigma attached to guiding. Secondly, the rich traditions and history of African hunting cannot be rivaled here in NA. Just take a look at the literature past and present(notelug for Will). Look at the young PH corps in Africa and those in the apprentice phase. Compare those to an entry level guide in NA. If you have a relationship with a great NA guide/outfitter it is a thing to be cherished. On average we just don't compare to the African professionals.

I think a major difference in NA is that if you've got the money to be able to afford an hunt at African prices, then you have your own ranch/at least a lease to hunt on.
I know several college-educated guys who are guides in the US -- all of whom have been hired either by very wealthy men to manage their ranches for game, or by corporations to manage their hunting retreats. Admittedly, I grew up in a small-town in TX, and some of the ranches that I'm talking about are the same size, or bigger, than the ones I've heard mentioned in Namibia.

Recognizing that there are good and bad actors on either side of the pond; the experience is so different - N.A. hunt vs African hunt- I don't think they should be compared vis-a-vis. I like both for different reasons and wouldn't be particularly pleased if limited to one or the other.

The service in an African camp is unparalleled but there is charm in the N.A. spike camp experience. The number and variety of African game is astonishing but searching for game in the majestic mountains and lush forests of the Northwest is magical.

For me, it kind of comes down to "do you prefer blondes or brunettes?" I like them both.

Hunter, most of the talk on here about Africian hunting is the "low country", but hunting Mt Nyala is at 10,000' and above and if you hunt Bongo it is as thick and lush as any of the NW. The best I can say of NA spike camp is you are sure to be wet, cold and hungry. Just mop.

I had one experience with a certain Les Krank (who I think lived in Arizona most of the time) in Alaska that was a massive letdown. Logistics were screwed up so we lost 2 days of the 14 day hunt gettting a float plane in. Food was "help yourself to some cold moose ribs" or "add some hot water to that package of dehydrated food". There were other hunters in camp, surprise!. Tents leaked. There weren't enough zodiacs for all the hunters so we were overloaded (two guides and three hunters in one small boat). Consequently, we ripped the bottom of the boat on a rock. Another day wasted. Guides thought this was a good time (9am) to break out a bottle of whiskey, and also had sodas, while clients were expected to drink purified river water flavored with cool-aid. We were told to pack light for one night upriver, ended up spending three. And on and on. I left half way through, and was told by Les that I had a bad attitude!!! Had to get a lawyer to get any kind of settlement, still spent more than a PG safari in Africa and didn't get one shot. Oh, I was bowhunting, and the guide they paired me with had a smoker's cough and was hard of hearing (he was a tugboat mechanic). Once, I thought I heard a moose and whispered "did you hear that", he said or rather shouted "WHAT?!!!". My thoughts exactly.

Another time we hunted Alberta for Moose. Guide wouldn't meet us any earlier than 8am at the airport hotel. Ended up on public land, tatty tents. There was another local hunter camped across the way. We hunted on quads...as I was coming down a cut-line toward camp at the end of the first day, I saw a moose crossing. Got off, sat down, and through scope saw a Suzuke mini 4 wd coming down the cutline from the other direction. Then BLAM BLAM. Turns out this guy was the guide's brother in law. The moose had miniature horns. My guide helped him butcher and load his moose. When I finally got my moose, several days later, I was told that boiling the head so I could take the skull/horns back with me on the plane was "not included in the price", even though they had the gas bottle etc. in camp. Guide's vehicle broke down taking moose to town to be butchered (on my nickel), so we spent a day and a half at his mom's house. She, it turned out, was having an affair while Dad was in camp. Very uncomfortable. Gave guide extra $$ to put my meat on a truck (his brother supposedly would bring it down to me) but eventually, after many phone calls, I had to ask the butcher to air-freight it down to me. Never did hear from the guide after he left me at the airport. Can't remember his name, Todd someone I think. He kept the extra $$ of course.

Now I won't hunt with a guide in NA, period. Prefer to figure things out for myself when I do hunt locally, but mostly I go to Africa. There, I actually get value for money, eat good food, drink a beer or two around fire, wine with dinner, get treated like a guest, and stay in a comfortable tent or lodge with a hot shower, even if it's a 44 gallon drum affair. Plus you actually SEE something to shoot over there! And you do get to shoot your gun, more than once!!

Here Here Russ, I could not have said it better. I am glad to say I never had anything as bad as you expereinced but had enough of the western states to say I don't think I will be hunting out west again, but never say never.

Russ, sorry you had a couple of bad trips. I assume you checked references well and talked with the outfitter in order to compare them with top end, well known outfitters? I am not standing up for the poor service you had but Alaska is still rugged wilderness and the unexpected does happen and it helps to be able to roll with the punches. I saw more snafu's on a two week safari in Zimbabwe and Mozambique than on any typical Alaskan hunt but they were simply part of the experience.
Plus, there are some genuinely rotten apples out there posing as guides & outfitters in both N.America and Africa. Please do your homework before sending your deposits.

I can't imagine an African Hunt that I would take in place of a 21-28 day pack trip, full bag hunt through the Cassiar's of BC or the MacKenzie Mountains of the NW Territory.

Anytime you have a PH, apprentice PH, a couple of trackers, a Game Scout and maybe a film crew and an observer tracking around with you I think you loose some of the ambiance.

Having your sore ass, from riding around in the cruiser, kissed and a 5 star Hotel to live in is not for me again. Not until I'm 75 or so and to old to actually hunt anymore anyway.

This is great news. There is enough rich, young guys running up the cost of safaris as it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
This is great news. There is enough rich, young guys running up the cost of safaris as it is.

C'mon Will, you still have 2-3 years to enjoy the Mountains before the hip and knee replacements, the pacemaker and the walker take over.

Wouldn't a nice 65" Moose or a Mountain Grizzly look good in the assisted living quarters?