Did the double only come about so as to get a repeater from a muzzle loader?

Once established, did it continue into the early 1900s because there was no repeater for the big cartridges.

In other words, is the reliability of two shots just an after thought?

Mike

They work! And they are nostalgic! I'm sure you keep some older calibers around even though there are modern chamberings that would do just a good a job, if not better? The big bore double rifle was not designed to be an "all around rifle"! It is an up close rifle!

They were/are a specific tool designed for a specific job. They delivered a large caliber bullet at low pressure in tropical heat. The idea was that you got two rounds no matter what. Reliability! No need to shuck a bolt, the next round was ready to go! At least you got two tries to settle the matter.

As I have stated on this and other forums, Mike375, there is no good reason to buy a double rifle. You have to want one to understand! It is purely personal preference.
I know you are a great advocate of personal choice, so I'm sure you'd love owning a double. What would be your favorite double rifle chambering for Australia? It should be a rimmed cartridge keeping with the original design for the double, easy extraction/ejection. Perhaps a 450/400 3 inch? Or maybe the newer 500/416. Now there is a killer! What would be your average stalking range on Roos? Are you inside 100 yds? I wouldn't recommend a double for long range shooting. Waste of time and money.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rusty,

Most of us down here are not into "stalking" because we use the spotlight

If I had a double in my hands and saw roos,pigs or goats across the flat country by day then I would I shoot at them. And after a couple of days you would get onto them.

I was hoping my post would attract some hsitorical comment and that comment would address whether the "two shots" was an after thought.

It was not an anti double post.

Mike

PS If I had a double I would pick either the big one like 577 or the 450/400 or 375. Those I have handled are much smaller and neater in 450/400 and 375 than 500 Nitro.

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 01-01-2002).]

I'm sure the two shots was not an "after thought". It would be much easier to make a single shot or magazine rifle. You don't have to regulate barrels with either.

The double rifle like most good rifles is a melding of functionality and art. I feel it was designed for two quick reliable shots delivering a large caliber bullet to the target at close range under tropical heat.
having the second round ready to go is just a matter of bringing the muzzles back on target and squeezing the trigger. The rifle never leaves the shoulder. You don't have to lift or pull anything. Just bring the muzzles to bear!
Along the way man being man created an art form of functionality.

So, to answer your question, two shots were a consideration when they designed the rifle!

I did not think your original post was an anti-double rifle post.

Rusty
We band of brothers

No, doubles were not an afterthought! They are a design that is at the pinnacle of gunmaking and will be around for a long time.

There were flintlock muzzleloading doubles.

There were percussion muzzleloading doubles.

There were pinfire - breechloading doubles (some of the most beautiful guns ever made).

Then, blackpowder cartridge doubles - with external hammers - then some without. (Love those damascus barrels!)

Then, the nitro express cartridge guns came along at the end of the 19th century and still are the best fight enders (there are lots of "stopping" rifles out there), but these, like the 8 bore and 4 bore blackpowder guns, were designed to be final when they spoke.

Obviously, I am very biased on the side of fine double guns. I only own a SxS shotgun when it comes to guns with the barrels in the correct orientation to each other. I'm young and full of dreams and income earning and will own at least 1 (hopefully several) good double rifles eventually. Until then, I am restricted to a few bolt guns and learning as much as I can about fine doubles.

Mike375 - A very well done magazine, called Double Gun Journal, would be well worth the subscription price. I highly recommend it.

Rusty - Love those doubles! Good shooting to you.

redleg

Rusty,

Obviously the double was designed to fire two shots.

But what I am trying to get at is:

1) The double came about as the only way to have a repeater.

2) When magazine rifles came out in bigger calibers, then was that the time the doubles were praised for "two shot reliability"

This is what I mean by "two shot relaibility" being an after thought.

In other words, the double was the only way to get a repeater with either muzzle loading or big cartridges. It was not designed to have better reliability than a bolt action.

I feel we are having accent problems in writing

We need an Englishman to come on and interpret for us

Mike

Mike375,

I think you are very correct about the touting of "2 shot reliability" that has sold the bolt rifle for years - and had great success on the battlefield too (and that's surely no a small statement).

A proper doublegun is 2 locks - each one firing a barrel. I love a mauser bolt as much as the next guy (well, I'd better be careful with that statement here). I'll say that if I have a choice, then a mauser bolt (among bolt actions) will always get the nod.

I have developed (or learned) a huge appreciation for doubleguns and their ruggedness, history, craftsmanship, and for them as working pieces of art.

There is also a strong argument that the rise of the sporting bolt action was due in large part to 2 factors. One being the large number of good military surplus actions available. Two, they were insanely cheaper to build (and be well built I might add) than a double rifle. To illustrate this point, as it is true today still, I would gladly throw my CZ550 in 460 G&A out of my car window going down the highway if I could have had a .450 Nitro class double for anywhere near what little I have in the bolt gun.

Often, as I think of what's next in my shooting safe, I have entertained the idea of getting rid of everything and getting a couple of good double rifles and just be done with it. But, I don't think I'd have the self-control to stop there.

Best regards,

redleg

Mike-
To try and answer your question I would say the double rifle, in any form, was an attempt to get a reliable second shot in a shorter period of time than allowed by a single shot. The design of the bolt rifle was many years into the future when the SxS rifles were first developed.
When the lever actions and bolt action were finally brought onto the scene they weren't capable of handling the truly big BP or Nitro cartridges so those remained in the realm of the double rifle.
I don't believe the reliability of the second shot was anything but a designed in feature. In today's world it may or may not have such an important role in sport hunting, that depends upon one's perspective. The bolt action can/does provide for this reliability and the second shot can/does happen without the rifle leaving one's shoulder. And, depending upon the skill of the user that second shot can come just about as fast as from the double. Is that fast enough? Again, it depends upon the user's perspective!

Mike375,
John S and redleg155 have spoken well to your question. However, this question is really like the chicken and the egg question.
The double rifle is really without peer for speed and reliability for a quick second shot. It is just a fact.

Now, to continue on a tangent, what is the best double rifle action design to achieve this speed and reliability most infallibly?

In my budding career as a double rifle afficianado I have come to accept the Westley Richards droplock as the ultimate. Make that a 500 NE 3" weighing about eleven pounds and you have the ultimate. More wood left, where action meets butt stock, than with the sidelocks. Detachable locks similar to the strong and simple Anson and Deeley fixed boxlock.

Somebody around here has one of those for sale, and I can't afford it!

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Happiness is a warm double.
RAB

For my purposes I'm sticking with bolt action rifles, regardless of any advantage that a double might offer, and regardless of where I hunt, what I hunt, or who I hunt with in Africa. For me, that's just the way it's going to be.

I don't care what sort of rifle-type you care to shoot; that mechanism is only as good as you are. A double will provided no edge whatsoever - and just possibly prove to be a handicap - unless you're willing to put in the time it takes to learn to use it real expertise.

AD

Any rifle can be a handicap Allen.
A double rifle can provide you the edge you need!

Rusty-
It can also provide you with a handicap you don't need!

Amen Rusty!

The first double rifle I shot was an H&H .500 BPE. A nice, satisfying, deep, hollow "boom" of black powder, quickly follow by another and 2 center hits at 50 yards. With sadness and while salivating, I handed the rifle back to its owner. What a wonderful tool.

Fortunately, I did not salivate on the rifle.

Sorry, but like I said, I'm a little biased toward doubles. Someday...

redleg

Rusty,

Doubles are one reason you should come to Australia and join The Big Game Club. There are more doubles there than ants in an ant nest.

I went to one of their "shoots" a few years ago and one bloke had a double 500 and a Farquarson also in 500 and both in top condition. I had a go with the 500 but though it heavy and clumsy as compared to the 450/400.

Mike

WHO CARES!!!

I WANT ONE!!!

an H&H 470 N.E. please.

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Don't tread on me!
Pennsylvania Frank

I have a double rifle in 470 that a lot of my friends have shot and to a man have all shot it very well. Is it because it balances well or ?. I do not know, but it is fun to shoot and is very quick on the second shot. I seem to get on the target for the second shot quicker than I would with a bolt action. But have not used a stop watch. I do know when I shot an elephant last year I fired both shots very quickly and they both hit on the money.

With that being said I sure like having a scope on bolt actions and did use a bolt gun to shoot a buffalo on last years trip.

Maybe that is why you need at least a minimum of one of each.

BigB

With blackpowder muzzle loaders and early centerfire cartridges misfires were not uncommon. So, it is my understanding that the double rifle was designed to allow the shooter to get AT LEAST ONE good shot off.

Two barrels, two locks, two triggers, basically two complete rifles ready to go. If one failed the other was right there.

The fact that you usually get two good shots is a benefit, but that was not the original engineering criteria. They wanted at least one shot for sure.

Absolutely BigB!
They are well balanced and come to bear on the target with little effort.

Once again the double rifle isn't a panacea. It is just a well made tool as many other rifles are well made tools. I don't advocate that you use a double rifle for all your hunting. I don't.

I wouldn't bottle off to Africa or any other place with just my double rifle. I do enjoy hunting with mine as much a possible. I consider it a valuable tool for my type of hunting! I don't recommend that anyone just run out and get a double rifle cause they think they need one! You need to evaluate your needs and budget.

I own an A. Hollis & Sons Boxlock, AE, DT double rifle. It was made circa 1922.
The barreled action was manufactured by Daniel Leonard who made most of the actions for Jeffery and others.
The 450/400 suit me kind of hunting. Small enought to use for most game here in the States, and big enough to swat a buff in Africa.

As with any rifle, practice makes you an accomplished shooter! A good friend of mine once told me Good Luck is opportunity meeting preparedness!

The double rifle in it's arena is the best at what it does. Given a choice I would choose a double rifle to get me out of trouble at close range or to provide a quick follow up shot to prevent trouble later.

If you don't like double rifles, that OK! It's your life! You'll do just fine!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Mike375, if the doubles are so common there, help us poor North American peons out and post some good deals please. Just kidding (no I'm not!). Seriously, are there any arms newspapers that trade in doubles over there and what are their titles and availability? Just wondering - Dan

Dan,

Here is The Big Game Club website

http://www.biggamerifleclub.com/

Most of the action and membership is in the state of Victoria, so you can imagine what these blokes are like.

Some of the gunsmiths and also people like Geoff McDonald (Woodleigh) are members. I think Ross Waghorn has restocked over 200 doubles.

By the way if you contact them and you happen to own anything like a Japanese Weatherby or Brwning A Bolt, don't mention it

A lot of yanks that want 404s built on Mausers would do well to get them done in Australia. As well, you would save a lot of Money.

For example Ross Waghorn would do a 404 or 375 Jeffrey and H&H look alike for about $2500US and that would be with good wood.

I am not a memeber and I would be too much of a ruffian with too much penal convict blood in my system

Mike

I'm going to side with P H Capstick on this subject.

The advantage of a double rifle is not necassarily the reliability of a second shot. But rather the ability to deliver two quick AIMED shots.

I have noticed that using an O/U shotgun when wingshooting has made me more effective at getting two well aimed shots off, than I ever was with a pump.

Perhaps the logic was the same with the big doubles on dangerous game?

Canuck

Dagga Ron said that "Happiness is a warm double". I totally agree with that.

I have had two of them, and I still kick myself for selling the first one. If you want to get into double rifles, you can find O/U:s in 9.3x74R from $2000 and up. It is quite suitable for any short to medium range shooting for any big game in NA. Some African countries, I have been told, also allow it for dangerous game. The O/U doubles point well and are as easy to shoot as a good shotgun, but some people don't like the O/U concept in a double rifle. It may not be as 'classy' as a side-by-side, but if you are hunting moose or deer it might not matter.

Vasa

Rusty, Craftsman, Canuck, Vasa,
Good points and well said!

Capstick was definitely right in his choice of rifles: a scoped 375 H&H and a 470 NE side by side.

Capstick was outstanding in his field, even if it was a field of dreams. He was a real PH and had enough experience to be an authority on rifle selection, nonetheless.

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Happiness is a warm double.
RAB

Gentlemen,

there have been posted a lot of considerable reasons for the double rifle. I agree with most, although I am not the happy owner of one.

But one of the best advantages with doubles has not been mentioned here: the are loaded silently. I.e. you can bring the rifle unloaded until you reach the post or are to shoot an animal.

When I some days ago was on a bigger deer hunt with many hunters, I brought my drilling, which is also a silent loader. But my neighbour hunter 150 yards away had a Mauser. Ii�s not allowed to carry a loaded rifle outside the post and I heard him loading very well - : clickety, clickety, clickety, clickety, clickety - razzle... Of course we didn�t see any animals at all.

This was in the Swedish forest, but I suppose it�s applicable everywhere. A double gun or a drilling is superior from this aspect.

Best regards,

Fritz

Fritz,
Not applicable everywhere mate. I doubt the loading of a bolt will disturb game over the barking of dogs or revving of a vehicle

My mental picture-

The double for dangerous game started by sticking two muzzleloading smoothbore barrels together.

So its only purpose was as the ultimate reapeater.

As the repeaters took hold, the 'quick second shot angle' would have been a fortutitous coincidence, although I still don't think these advantages would have been quite as 'noted' as they are today.

Since from a marketing point of view its biggest 'seller' was that it still had the biggest shells.

Once repeaters got popular and even moreso got the big shells,it was then that the doubles 'quick second shot and pointing' angle was flogged to death.

It could not work miracles for sales for ever though especially once Americans got the repeaters with big shells and started making their own.

Karl.

[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 01-03-2002).]

It is an absolute truth that the only reason a double was invented was to get off a shot after the first shot went, or in many cases didn't go at all. This was common with front loaders, especially in bad weather. The first doubles were flint lock shotguns, and the weather doesn't get any nastier than in a goose blind. Then the system went to the rifle for the same reason, the most reliable seeming to be the twist barrel double rifle, useing one lock. This was found to be less reliable than two seperate locks, makeing the arm simply two completely indipendant rifles on the same stock. If one did not go, all one had do was change triggers. AFTER THOUGHT? NO I don't think you could say that, it was a conscious, designed in, feature.

The cartridges came into being, and still only single shots were all there was, the double was still a better choice. The single shot became the one that was a specialized rifle, being used for long range shooting, from cover. The double was still the best stalking rifle. Then the bolt action, lever action rifles came along, but they were restricted to small slow, and weak rounds of black powder persuasion. The double rifle still had the capability of useing cannon like shells, with a quick one two punch, of AIMED shots.

Even today the large rounds being put into bolt rifles only accomplish two things, more speed, and recoil, with no real gain over the turn of the 20th century rounds used in the double rifles. It has been proven the pushing of big bullets much past 2400 fps actually has a negative effect on the bullets performance on animals.

To top this off the second shot fired from a bolt rifle is accomplished by #1 recovering from recoil, #2 takeing the hand away from the trigger, #3 lifting the bolt handle, #4 pulling the bolt all the way back,#5 shouving the bolt all the way forward, #6 turning the bolt down, #7 takeing the hand off the bolt, #8 getting back in contact with the trigger,#9 getting back on target with the sights, and finally,# 10 pulling the trigger again!

The same sceenario with a double rifle is, #1 recover from recoil #2 take the finger off the front trigger, #3 put the finger on the back trigger, #4 get back on target with the sights, and #5 pull the back trigger.

In the case of say a lion chargeing from very close quarters, the extra five steps needed to get off the second aimed shot from a bolt rifle may, in fact, be too many! Considering a lion can cover 100 yds in 3.5 seconds, think what that translates to at 20 yds! 20 yds is only 1/5th of 100 yds! Even with a double rifle, you will be lucky to get the second shot, and you will not get it with any kind of bolt rifle!

The fact is nobody needs anything till they need it! The double rifle is no different, but at 20 yds, is not the time to find out you do!

NO, I think the double rifle is still here because it has a proven track record in the field with dangerous big animals,and the only reason you don't see more of them in the field is PRICE, nothing more! Besides as DaggaRon says, happiness is a warm double!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

MacD37,
Good analysis. There is no denying it.

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Happiness is a warm double.
RAB

Mike 375, thanks for the link. I'm drooling over the cased rifle on the home page. Makes for a soggy keyboard. - Dan

Mac,
Historically hunters eventually choosing cheaper bolts over doubles meant that
a. either the risk of stopping charges was not a great consideration, or
b.the bolt did a good enough job anyway.

Another way of saying this is
"The advantages the double offered were obviously not seen as vital-"
- you by your argument would then add "because of the PRICE".
(Since you said PRICE sunk it)

So the double failed because it was not worth the price.

I'll second that

Karl.

Some seem to have mis-understood the question... Yes, a double was created to allow for a repeat shot, from the same muzzle loader. One can either shoot a double, or carry two muzzle loaders, if they wanted a quick second shot, excusing a brace of pistols.
One really can't argue a double muzzle loader was reliable, since moisture affects both shots just the same as two seperate muzzle loaders.
Doubles were created in the muzzle loader era, not the Nitro Express era.
Only when the double became a cartridge rifle, did the reliability come into play. ~~~Suluuq

[This message has been edited by Rusty Gunn (edited 01-04-2002).]