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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting SCI: Missing in Action?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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For members, if you have not already received your latest issue of Safari, flip through it when you get it. Here is what you will find on the Cecil incident . . . one sentence on page 12 out of a magazine that is almost 200 pages long. Nothing about (i) how hunters can help address the issue, (ii) why it is important for all hunters to stand together, (iii) facts supporting the role that hunters play in conservation, (iv) what SCI is doing to try and get its arms around the social media issue, etc. Nothing. So in the face of the biggest media black eye hunting has sustained, not one article on the issue and what is or can be done to help fight back? Disappointed does not even begin to capture how I feel. Mike | ||
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Is Cecil illegible for one of the INNER CIRCLES? If he was, SCI would have had half the magazine devote to him! SCI has lost the plot a looooong time ago! | |||
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I think SCI dropped the ball and turned their back on hunters when they immediately suspended the hunter before he was charged or convicted. | |||
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.............................................................Shameful, to say the least! ..................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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First for hunters....  | |||
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Mike - Did you or your chapter president go to the board meeting last week? Our president came back, briefed us, and told us it was extensively talked about during the week. | |||
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Jeff, I do not know. I am scheduled to have a call with some SCI folks in the next week or so to learn a little about what they discussed in DC. One thing they will hear from me is, the Cecil incident occurred in July. It is now September. If that is the standard for a rapid response in the electronic age, we just better quit now and forget about it. Extensive talk will not cut it. And what is the harm in telling the members, here is what we are doing from a process perspective to address the issue of being unprepared (admit the ball was dropped, everyone knows it), even if they do not want to get into specifics. The problem at SCI is that there is no one person driving the bus, the bus is driven by committee. It means it takes too long to do things, actions are reduced to the lowest common denominator and conflicting policy priorities mean actions when taken are muted. It really is no way to run an organization. Mike | |||
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Mike, I am mildly curious - What do you believe that SCI could have done to either: 1. Eliminate or at least curtail some of the public backlash or 2. Stop the airlines from reacting to the public backlash? I do not finding it at all surprising that SCI has had no effect on the incident. And that's not an indictment of SCI, just embracing a little fact and reality. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Mike, you make some good points. Hopefully the phone call will clear up some questions you have. Please report back and let us know how it goes. | |||
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1. Nothing 2. Nothing This was an issue festering under the skin for years, waiting for the right opportunity to erupt. The foundation for the reaction was laid years ago. Nothing in the moment was likely to change the dynamic. I think it is more an issue of what does the organization do going forward to educate hunters and public, unify hunters of all types, develop an effective social media platform and lobbying arm, etc. Had they done that five years ago, would it have made a difference, who knows. Embracing fact and reality in my view is to acknowledge that the organization cannot continue to approach things in the same way it has historically and expect any different result. Mike | |||
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 Just a suggestion - you should encourage SCI to become more engaged on the ground in RSA, Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Zambia, Mozambique, and Namibia. They should fund and encourage governments to obtain data and publish it for public consumption. Data like: Total money spent on sport hunting by country. Total hunting funds that are paid directly into communities. Total animals taken through sport hunting. Total animals killed by illegal poaching. Total animals legally killed through cattle/human encounters. Estimates on animal numbers by species. Historic estimates on animal numbers by species. Total land set aside for hunting/conservation. Most of this data is no longer tracked in many of these countries because there are no funds available. Some of this data is tracked, however, the governments are reluctant to disclose it due to the potential anti-hunter boycott/backlash. If SCI wanted to do something useful for both these countries as well as the hunting community as a whole, they need to start collecting the data and presenting the facts. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Give them hell Mike! | |||
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Yes, very disappointed in the missing in action status of SCI in the Cecil Issue. Lost the initiative in the debate with the antis to educate the world about the benefits of Trophy hunting in conservation. | |||
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Exactly, I strongly believe that the numbers would tell a pretty convincing tale. Why not develop a "fact sheet" or "finger tip facts" card that lays out the actual numbers in terms of dollars hunting pumps into conservation, local economic impact of hunting, species numbers in areas with hunting and without hunting, relative economic impact of hunting safaris versus photographic safaris, habitat preserved through hunting, etc. There could be non-hunting info too. For example, to me the greatest threat to Africa's wildlife is loss of habitat. To put that in perspective, the population of Africa quadrupled from 1955 to 2009; doubled from 1982 to 2009; and is expected to more than double from 1.1 billion in 2015 to over 2.4 billion in 2050. If you cannot find ways like hunting to make the preservation of wildlife pay, the habitat and consequently the wildlife will be lost to population growth. Sheesh, we have a great story to tell we just need someone to write the damn story up and start telling it.  Mike | |||
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Excuse me. Forget about Cecil. Palmer pled guilty to a wildlife law violation several years ago. Why should he have been allowed to remain an SCI member after that? I would prefer to think that any wildlife conservation association I am a member of does not include ex-felons convicted of violating wildlife protection laws. If SCI is to be faulted on Palmer, it is for not acting several years ago to throw him out . . . and why is he just suspended now . . . his conviction is public record, boot him out yesterday. Mike | |||
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You're excused. Yes, of course they should have done it previously. But, they didn't. So why, now suspend him? 2 wrongs..... | |||
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Whilst I'm not a fan of SCI, I would guess there was too little time to put the information in the latest issue of their rag. Most magazines run 2-3 months behind due to the time to edit and publish. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Mike and Cal both have it right. SCI has always been overloaded with committees and slow to move, as Mike says. It's been 17 years since I published Safari magazine, but as Cal says, we worked at least 60 days in advance of the publication dates. To get timely information to members, we launched Safari Times and set our drop-dead deadline at one week before press time. Bill Quimby | |||
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I wonder if someone had made an exceptional, one of the kind convention auction donation late in the publication cycle if SCI would have found a way to work it into the magazine? Yes, at this point I am a cynic when it comes to the efforts of SCI to get its act together. Mike | |||
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Mike, I have gone on record here many times telling this crowd that SCI is dumb as a box of rocks. When the LCTF put together a coalition of scientists willing to say that Lion Hunting was OK as long as you targeted the right lions...what did they do??? Not a f***ing thing. They let a golden opportunity pass. I personally am a life member of DSC and I let my membership to SCI lapse. After dealing with the higher ups of SCI over the "Definition of a Huntable Male Lion"...I reiterate...the management of that org IS...dumb as a box of rocks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I am struggling with the membership renewal issue currently. Nationally, I do not think they will ever get to where they need to be because I do not think they are prepared to make the necessary organizational changes to be successful, like having the executive committee step back from involvement in day to day activities. On the other hand, the local SCI Chapter in Houston really does do some great work in the community. Mike | |||
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You can be a local Chapter member and not be a national member. I am a member of the North Texas chapter. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I need to check on that. Mike | |||
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I could be wrong, but I don't think so Lane. When I use to belong to an SCI Chapter you also had to be a National or International Member. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Maybe y'all are correct and my Chapter just has not kicked me out. I was a national member when I joined the chapter club. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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We can make all the excuses we want for their lack of any proper action in this case. But, we are really forgetting that in principle, SCI has been nothing but a trophy scoring organization for so many years, that nothing else matters to them any more. How many years some of us have been asking WHAT has SCI actually DONE for hunters and conservation in AFRICA?? All we were getting nothing but lip service! | |||
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SCI used to have an office in Joburg - it was run by Andre de George and was pretty active in getting the word across to government depts up as far as at least Tanzania. This was when I lived in Dar. I think though that a lot of this initiative was taken locally - not sure there was much support from Stateside. Seems like the wheels have fallen off since then? I gave my membership up after writing them a nasty letter for all the things they were not doing and for the drivel pumped out in Safari magazine. Some weird people in there - and yes I met them all the way to the top. | |||
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It was called the Global Financial Crisis. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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We still wonder where the millions SCI gets from their blackmail go?? Remember, they make millions every year, what is being done with it towards actual conservation?? | |||
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You enjoy trolling your own forum? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Neither me nor many hunters enjoy the shenanigans SCI has betting getting up to. All in our name! | |||
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The cost of operation with SCI has got to be enormous. I do not think I have ever seen an organization that is worse for being top heavy. Ever look at the myriad of elected positions? Meetings in DC. Then there is the magazine and monthly. Brutally expensive with publication/postage/shipping. Add in headquarters/Administration/museum in AZ, etc, etc. I can easily see a huge amount of money seeping away. I personally believe that it is a classic example of inefficiency. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Along those lines, think of the amount of money lost in administrative cost when you take all of the competing hunting organizations into account, like SCI, DSC, HSC, RMEF, DU, QU, NWSF, NWTF, etc. They all have overhead and administrative costs. All of those administrative costs are therefore lost for purposes of lobbying, advocacy, education, missions and the like. It is hugely inefficient. If this was a business, someone would be doing roll-up mergers of all these entities and saving all that lost administrative cost. Mike | |||
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That's the proverbial million dollar question. And one that has been asked over and over again with no clear answer and no proof that much of anything has been accomplished. That's why so many of us stopped supporting them. Maybe this time it will be different... maybe not... ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Just so we don't forget, SCI sends a small handful of children to some sort of mystery camp for photos opps every year.  There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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I have pointed out, and will do again here, DSC has EIGHT FULL TIME EMPLOYEES ONLY. The overhead, when compared to SCI is a percentage of a fraction. A very stark contrast in overhead and waste. Dave Fulson | |||
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Fair enough. Of course administrative costs are not just salaries, but would pick up office expense, publications, website maintenance, advertising, sponsorships, third party costs, and the like. Add that up over the plethora of hunting organizations out there for everything from elk to ruffed grouse, my guess is the number is not insignificant. That was my only point. Mike | |||
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My take on it is that SCI is pretty much like every other "media" organisation and generates, reports and feeds off its own news and reportage - and its own importance! For those involved and employed its an end in itself. I do remember through a friend offering SCI the chance to become involved both financially and practically in a black rhino conservation project in the Selous - not interested in the slightest. I'd contrast this with BASC here (British Association for Shooting andConservation) which, whilst being a long way from perfect does take an active role in pure conservation projects - conserve in order to hunt. | |||
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I know SCIF is a non-profit (don't know if SCI is). If so, why not just request their tax forms which I believe are public. At least the 990 forms would be which might say a good bit about the org in this regard. | |||
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Mike: It's been almost two decades since I had anything to do with SCI's publications, but I doubt if drop-dead deadlines set by outside suppliers, such as pre-press preparers, press schedulers, and the U.S. Post Office and overseas drop shippers have changed much. Changes could be made early in our two-month production cycle to accommodate a big donation, but it would be virtually impossible later on. Missing the later deadlines would cause later mailing dates and bring out a bunch of angry advertisers with timely ads demanding refunds. Skyline: Elected positions are filled by volunteers who are paid only for their actual expenses. Don't know about now, but when I was in charge of the club's magazine, newspapers and record books, the club's publications were profitable. Bill Quimby | |||
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