After reading some posts I'm confused. I'm not an expert but I suppose a cape and a water buff are "similar" in certain aspects.

It's not better to go for a lung shot with a premium soft? why so many people recomends using solids and aiming for the shoulder? if you miss the bone you are in big problems, instead with a good shot in the lungs with a premium soft he will run but more sooner than later he will be down. I'm wrong?

Maybe some of the experienced dangerous game hunters can explain me the advantages of using solids and aiming for the shoulder in the first shot .

L

Lorenzo ... I would humbly suggest from our mutual experience together .. that using a solid will prolong the fun and adventure ...By the way, Margaret whacked a juicy black bear on Saturday ...

Lorenzo, It is just a matter of everyone having their own opnions and different styles of hunting and experiences according to whether they like soft or solids. Speaking only for myself I will not use any solids on any animal except for elephant. When I am hunting with a client, I will only let them use soft point bullets for their hunting. The only animals I will let a client use a solid for is an elephant and hippo.

I have seen more wounded buffalo from solids than I ever have with softs. A soft will do more damage than a solid anyday. Even if a soft hits the shoulder, it will break the front shoulder. Even if the soft hits the spine, the buffalo will still go down. So, I persoanlly do not see any big advantage to solids except with elephant and hippo.

Even when I am the PH, I will use soft nose in my double instead of solids. I have shot a buffalo at full charge with a 500g soft and the bullet went in just under the right eye, went through the neck and broke the spine, through the lungs, and ended up in the back left leg. So, that soft nose went through the entire body of the buffalo! How much more would anyoe need than that?

But again, it is just a matter of everyone and their own personal preference and what they think is the best for them.

Amigazo, nice to hear from you !!
Yes, if you find a charging buffalo something funny I agree with you than a solid is better....it seems Ed wanted the room only for himself, as he recomended you a solid but he use a soft

I'm missing our namibian camp...
Send my congrats to Margaret!!!

L

I'd basically agree with Adam on this, but I'd add Rhino onto my list of animals to be shot with solids. I also don't trust ANY FMJ solid. If it's gonna be a solid, it should be a mono solid if at all possible. (double rifles excepted)

I guess that choice of calibre would also be a factor.

I agree with you.
I was taught by a French old hand (I was a beginner concerning hunting in Africa, and ever since he professed he deflowered me ). He used to say �toujours casser l�os� Always break bone! The aim is KILLING + MAIMING. He recommended to shoot through the shoulder so as to break first the elbow, the humerus or the scapula and then to hit the lungs, heart or spine.
Elephant apart, no solid for the first shot, but instead a well-constructed soft bullet. If need be, the following bullets may be solids, always intended to break bone.
Moreover he despised solids, they are providing poor (if only) bloodtrails.
Ever since it�s my �religion�,�� rightly or wrongly.

One of the secrets concealed in the open in John "Pondoro" Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges (ACR) is the shoulder shot. Big John favored over it other shots, but only after he learned it (as he put it).

I recall reading about the shoulder shot in the book, and then wondering just what the heck he was referring to. He does not have a nice drawing or description in one place to illuminate the discussion; perhaps he thought everyone would already know.

Anyway, I have recently read slowly through a copy of ACR marking the passages wherein Taylor writes about the shoulder shot and collecting the text. The collected references is the very interesting definition of Taylor's shoulder shot.

The shoulder shot is through the scapula, and is intended to break bones including the spine.

The lung shot will kill the buff, but he is going to run a bit before expiring. Taylor didn't want to chase things un-necessarily. The shoulder shot puts them down right there. He does warn of exits wounding multiple buff, and describes a couple of times he did so.

jim

Hello Richard and Lorenzo
In retrospect I think that perhaps a soft point would have been better for Richards shot. But maybe a soft point would not have broken the far shoulder and we would not around to post on AR. For my shot a soft was definately correct as my buffalo was walking in a herd with other buffalo behind. Two wounded buffalo at the same time with a single shot rifle would have been interesting. For me shot placement is king and soft vs solid on buffalo is just noise. P.S. Lorenzo, I have a copy of "The Perfect Shot" in spanish.

Ed

Jim,



I have long wondered what Taylor was talking about but still not totally convinced. He claimed that every buff dropped in its tracks when hit in the shoulder, which would only occur when spined. So I guess this is the "high shoulder shot"!



"Shoulder shots" is a term thrown around by a lot of people rather casually in a vague and undefined manner. The same applies to the mystical shoulder shot on elephants, where it is claimed that it will also put an elephant down. Whether this is due to the shot being in close proximity to the spine or accidentally hitting the spine or whatever never gets explained. It just works is the reasoning, but like Taylor a high shoulder shot either hits the spine or is close enough to shock the elephant or buffalo or whatever into collapsing, at least temporarily.



Just don't miss!

I have killed a hell of lot of Buffalo with solids without any problems and I have seen a lot of Buffalo killed with solids...I like the flat nose solids much better and I really like Northforks new cup points better than anything else I have used....

As to solids, I have not been able to tell much difference, they run about 50 or 60 yards and die...I think most people that knock solids have not used them much..

Yeah, I guess the shoulder is a rather ambiguous area leaving some room for interpretation.

BUT, I once had a lady client on a pig hunt who I instructed to shoot her pig "immediately behind the shoulder". She hit the pig in the top of the head and of course it dropped. Upon our approach she saw the head shot. She immediately explained to me that she had read in a book that the shoulder was ACTUALLY in the head of wild pigs. It was pretty hard not to laugh. I guess guys aren't the only ones with fragile egos.

Kyler

On buffalo I use a soft point (Barnes X actually) on the shoulder and anywhere on the body they seem to penetrate quite well.

On elephant I use solids for all shots.

The one and only buffalo I've ever lost wounded was using solids and a .458Lott. I hit him to far back on a running shot (long story) but in anycase he bleed good for awhile then dried up we lost the track at dark and weren't able to find him the next day.

Of course shot placment is everything and that was a lousy shot but I can't help but think he'd have gone down to a good quality soft point as the shot wasn't THAT far back and it did get at least one lung from the blood sign.

I believe that a scapula/high shoulder shot will drop any living creature instantly, BUT leaves little margin for error + a temporary shocked state can soon wear off if the spine isn't actually broken.
On the other hand, if the humerus is broken, you will also hit the heart AND part of the lungs on a 3 legged animal. I find it easiest to shatter the shoulder on when the animal is quartering towards me.

rdash,
if you are concerned about ammo then get hold of your PH and ask him to get the ammo he would best recommend(unless there is something specific you usually use.i.e. Federal Premium, in which case ask him to get you a box or two of a good controlled expansion bullet or soft-nose of your choice) for the animals you will be hunting. Unless you are using an old, uncommon british calibre most of the premium ammo types are available in Zim, RSA, Bots & Namibia. Zambia & Mozambique it might be hard to find exactly what you want, but if you let him know what you are looking for I am sure he will work something out for you.

Where are you hunting and what rifle are you planning to use?

Bit of a worry for me - I start on my first buff hunt in 3 weeks. Ammo allowed in UK is solid only (Federal Premium) in .416 and .375. I can buy Kynoch soft and solid in JBG. Perhaps some of each and listen carefully to PH? Kynoch load Woodleighs, IIRC.
Although this will be my 5th. African hunt I am a little concerned about getting it right, as previously I have stuck to antelope/Zebra/piggy quarry.Large dangerous animals to practice on are rare (!) in UK and exploding bunnies and roe deer with large calibres frowned on.
That is, of course, if export permit comes through!
Regards
rdash

Hi All,
I just got back from Zim. Hunted Omay South. PH insisted on solids. After some nine miles I got a shot. The Buff was quartering away in grass and a bit of bush. I hit back in the ribs and the solid drove straight through exiting near the off shoulder and taking out the lung. I like an exit wound and it left a good blood trail.

The rest of the herd went to the left. My Buff circled to the right and hid in the grass and bush unknown to us. He set up a charge and tried to T-bone us. He came at us from about twelve yards. Both the PH and myself were able to get off one round each and the bull turned and ran back into the bush. We found him dead 30 yards away. Both of our shots hit the Buff, no deflection from the bush and they penetrated almost completely through.

After changing my underwear, I decided I like solids.

Cheers, PG

Surestrike,
You simply cannot blame a solid for your admitted poor shooting...Even a soft in the gut will not kill a Buffalo and once they pump with adrenaline, they are very hard to kill, when you do find them..

I have found the solids kill Buffalo very well indeed when properly used, I have found softs kill Buffalo very well when properly used...

I am convienced that the Northfork cup point is the one best bullet for buffalo that I have ever used and it it voids all softs and solids IMO...It works both ways, it in effect is an expanding solid, it expands just enough to cause massive internal damage and still penetrates like almost as much as a solid..

Terry,

Since every shot is different it is difficult to precisely define what works and what doesn't. I have never tried this high shoulder shot so have no experience. A PH was trying to tell me how to take a frontal brain shot on an elephant and told him he was just confusing the subject. He has his way and I have mine.

Similarly on buffalo, I have always tried to use a lung shot or have brained them. It has always worked.

As PG related above, those solids leave a good blood trail, but I contend that is not what is desired. A good soft is going to do a lot more damage than a solid and bring the buff to earth a lot faster than a solid.

So I still contend that using solids is a self-fulfilling prophecy, where a solid leaves a good blood trail but that is due to the solid not doing the best job in the first place, and therefiore a good blood trail is needed, so better use a solid if a blood trail is needed, because the solid lets the buff run off, and so on and so forth!

This is why I think a Double Rifle is KING. When hunting buff you can have a soft in the right bbl and a solid in the left. Usuallly you will shot the soft first, then follow it up with the solid. However if you need to shoot the solid first you can.
Also if you encounter elephants it is very easy to silently replace the soft with another solid and either sneak up and shoot the elephant, or sneak out of the elephants way. Either way you are prepared for a charge with 2 solids.
I very much like to have a soft available for my first shot,on buff, but a solid is more apt to save your bacon if you get that sudden, unexpected charge from a buff, rhino, hippo or elephant.
With a double you have the best of both worlds.

Will,

Taylor does write that he used the shoulder shot on elephant, definitely high shoulder as we are defining here. In several places he talks about drilling shots through the shoulder blade (scapula).

He also writes that the shoulder blade is the best feature for aiming because it is very visible on the hide.

jim

I like a solid when hunting the high grass early in Tanzania because it leaves a heavy blood trail shot high on the grass whereas a soft will usually result with only a little nose/mouth blood that goes on the ground..I like to see that blood up high and be able to watch in front of me at the same time...and that is the point of the whole thing IMO...A soft may or may not kill quicker, I have shot a lot of Buffalo with both and frankly I have not noticed that much difference, sometimes yes and sometimes no...

If close (50 yards) I will normally shoot a Buff where the neck and shoulder join, and they always go down instantly even if you miss the spine you will hit a short rib and that knocks them down every time, I always give them a couple more, ammo is cheap....

In a big bore like a 470, if I had to hunt the rest of my life with solids, that would suit me fine..I have not found buffalo difficult to kill with them and a quick one, two will bring them down quick....

I get the impression that some of you think they are akin to Sherman tanks and on a rare ocassion they are, but mostly they just die when you make the first shot right.