Seeing Double by Tony Sanchez-Arino

I know all the double folks will hate me but in my opinion, as I have said before, much of the double gun stuff is romantic fantasy. For hunting it is slow and and clumsy, and wounded game can easily exit the scene before it can be reloaded. For the charge nothing could be better, but except for the very experienced PH's how many guys have ever been charged?

And now for the more traditional and wide spread view of the double rifle.

Of course any rifle in the hands of an untrained man will be clumsy slow and hard to reload.

A double with a properly trained operator is lightening fast, comes up and points like no other rifle available and can be loaded and fired four times as fast as a bolt gun if you know what your doing.

A good modern double is as accurate as any heavy bolt gun available.

Not to mention there is no rifle on the planet that is quicker to reload.

Once again it all boils down to practice and preference.

This debate will never be settled. I shoot both and enjoy shooting both. I do get sick and tired of hearing the same false bullshit about doubles over and over again from people who've either never used one or have very limited experience with them.

Use what works for you.

If I am not mistaken Antonio Sanchez-Arino has just a tad more experience in this matter than our esteemed colleague Will. No?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I know all the double folks will hate me but in my opinion, as I have said before, much of the double gun stuff is romantic fantasy. For hunting it is slow and and clumsy, and wounded game can easily exit the scene before it can be reloaded. For the charge nothing could be better, but except for the very experienced PH's how many guys have ever been charged?

"Slow and Clumsy"

The author just stated;

"As a general rule, repeaters are preferable in more open country where you can shoot at greater range while doubles have a distinct advantage when one is working in heavy, thick forests, and when following a wounded, aggressive animal."

I don't think a "slow and clumsy" gun would be employed for following up a wounded pissed off animal.

Who gives a shit if its a romantic fantasy. If you have the money buy one and take it on safari. Shit, shoot elk, deer and hogs with it. I would also use it for varmint hunting. Those ground squirrels get aggressive and could charge.

I'm sorry but I would rather hunt buff with a .500 Nitro then have a .375H&H loaded with 5 rounds. (I will take my chances wounding them with the .500 Nitro)

I know of two people who got charged. One was Bob Fontana, and he didn't make it. He was a nice guy too, took a trail ride with him and his wife in BC about a year before he died. He was hunting Lesser Kudu, but still got charged.

The other is Keith Atchenson, his wife almost died from a wounded buff that charged. He had a problem with his .416 Rem on a Winchester Model 70 action. Ask him about it. He will be back from Zim in 4 weeks.


Know what, I know me with 4 girls in a pool full of whip cream will never happen, so know what??

I am booking a 12 day buff/plains game hunt and in the next few weeks I am sending a check out to Butch to get my self on the waiting list to have a .500 Nitro built up.

At least that fantasy about hunting buff with a double will become a reality.

sierrabravo,

Congratulations! And celebrations!

I think [?] that you have just been pushed over the edge. You know, that fine edge of wanting to, but not having quite enough resolve to actually do it. Clearly something in the thread just convinced you that: "Enough is enough! Romantic or not, I'm going to hunt a Cape Buffalo with my very own double!" Go for it! You are a MAN!

You will enjoy every bit of the wait and anticipation for your double and the hunt! Do it. Now! Life is to short to wast time on rifles that don't speak to your heart in that secret language that you and I, and other double fanatics know, but some others just don't seem to understand.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Shit. I've had four girls in a hot tub, but I can't afford a new double from Searcy.

I suppose Will/Bill is right about the romantic stuff re a double, but I see nothing wrong with that if you can afford it.
I don't suppose many PH s would allow clients to get where the double would be actually needed??

Funny about the different opinions. John Taylor explaines why he wouldn't have ejectors, but maybe those days are gone.
Liked your book Bill, esp. the chapter by young Bill. Um that purchace was just romantic fantasy for me.

Now about the M70 416 trouble, I would be interested to know if it was a worked over CRF.
I'll make a note to ask Mr. Atchenson on his return, if you all don't think he'd mind.????

I would debate the statement that you can fire 4 shots from a double, quicker than I can fire 4 shot from a bolt. 4 times as fast? I ain't saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying, I would have to see it.
My thought, an experienced bolt guy, can work the bolt while the rifle is in recoil and be ready to shoot as soon as the barrel is back on target.
If you want to shoot a double, go for it.

Actually the story was published in Sports Afield or Outdoor life do a search on a outdoor article data base and I bet it would come up.

The buffalo was wounded and after some time looking for it they found the buff and it charged. When Keith brought his gun up to fire the safety was on, and when Keith went to take it off, the bolt was up a bit. When the bolt is up on Model 70's just a tad, you cannot take the safety off. After a quick bit of struggling with it. Keith got the safety off, and killed the buff at point blank range. I know the magazine article that was published had pictures of his wife torn up a bit, and pictures of the buff.

PM Sent to you JAL

quote:

Originally posted by WPN:
Shit. I've had four girls in a hot tub, but I can't afford a new double from Searcy.

I have been with 4 girls in a hot tub also. I want them to be willing and able and good looking, and filled with whip cream.

Is that asking to much. This is going OT quick.

I knew that would stir up the troops.

I wish Ray would come back to argue that extractors are just as fast as ejectors.

Well if he was tossed onto his back they might be.

TJ, others,

In the Zim PH test there was a time when they were first setting up the "standardized" shooting test when it was thought that the DR guys might need a handicap to make up for time to reload between second and fourth shot during the portion that attemps to test performance on charging and fleeing game. In practice it was discovered that this wasn't so. The scoring is a combination of accuracy and time. The DR shooters not only didn't need any loading handi cap but regularly win on both accuracy and time, well outpacing the bolt shooters.

There was an article about setting up the test and test results in African Hunter Magazine which was available online but last I looked I couldn't find it. If you are interested you could probably get it by contacting the editors.

JPK

"It is a ridiculous debate because practical experience has shown that both types of rifles work very well, and no system is 100 percent ideal in all circumstances."

T. S-A.

Like some others here I use both bolt, and double rifles for hunting in general, not just for dangerous game! Both have their place, and both have places where they are the best in a given sittuation. The double rifle is, as Bill points out, a very romantic rifle system for African hunting, but then so is a properly made DGR bolt rifle. There is nothing wrong with that, hunting in Africa is a romantic activity. Nobody knows that fact better than Bill! Hell, his whole book is a romantic novel. A book filled with the memories of a man who dreamed of hunting Elephant in Africa. My question is, what is the difference between his romance, and the romance of useing a double rifle, or a well made bolt rifle designed perfectly for African dangerous game hunting.

I say, gentlemen, use what you want, it's your hunt, and it is your romantic dream you are building! Please, however, don't put down the romantic dreams of others who you disagree with their choice of firearms,that is part of their dream !

Okay, how about something less controversial?

The 416 Rem is a lot better than the 416 Rigby.

Or how about the 9.3x62 is just as good as a 375 H&H.

Or was is the best scope for a double rifle?

Hey Mac,

If I had my choice, it would be two matched doubles and a reliable gunbearer.

Am I forgiven?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Hey Mac,

If I had my choice, it would be two matched doubles and a reliable gunbearer.

Am I forgiven?

Hell, Bill, I'd loved to have been with you on every Elephant hunt in your great book, even if I'd had to use a single shot 45-70! Your book got me wired to go hunting!

I notice this guy is all for ejectors!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I notice this guy is all for ejectors!
Peter.

I have double set up both ways. Tony Sanchez-Arino, has always spoken out for the use of ejectors on a double rifle. He and a couple others I know, like ejectors on their doubles, but there are far more who don't like them, especially when hunting Elephant, or Buffalo.

I like them in the field, but absolutely hate them on the fireing range. I had a Heym 88, a few years ago, that had a selector switch to disengage the ejectors, when you didn't want them. I believe all double rifles should be made with this set-up. MY DGR doubles are all disconnected, and I have no problem reloading quickly, but I could see useing them, especially when dealing with lion! I haven't found a real need for them on Buffalo, however, and I can't afford to hunt Ele!

quote:

Originally posted by WPN:
Shit. I've had four girls in a hot tub, but I can't afford a new double from Searcy.

were they all related to you(wife, daughters, sisters)

I have call BS on a couple of things in Tony's article - He said the following -

I prefer double rifles, but I am not dogmatic or fanatic about it as I have also used repeaters all my life with great success. I have managed to acquire the necessary experience with both types of rifles over fifty-three years of hunting in Africa, having shot 17 ,277 elephant, 2,044 buffalo, and 332 lion without a problem, using doubles and magazine rifles alike.


Did he really say 17,277 elephants? That works out to ( 17,277 elephants / 365 x 53 years = .893 elephants per day!!!! That is basically 6 elephants a week for 53 years!!!!!

Is that realistic or a misprint??? The buffalo totals and lion totals are enormous, but possibly believable. The elephant total is beyond my comprehension...

Did anyone else pick up on that from his article on double rifles??

Yep, a typo for sure.
I don't recall exactly, but saw his claimed total in one of his books. In the same book, the biggest bag of all went to "Samaki" Salmon, with over 4,000 in about 23 years, or something like that. Mostly control work.

For Tony, 1,727 is closer than 17,277.
Or was it 1400? Something in that ballpark would be reasonable. And would this include his shots at client game?

Most bigtime PH's would be in on the taking of more buffalo than elephant.

To date, the really big bags of elephant don't get much more than "over 5,000" as for Ron Thompson who did mostly control work, and that would include bulls, cows, and calves too. Can you spell "Mahohboh?" Mahohohoboh?

Karamojo Bell only killed about 2000 elephant, didn't he?

Misprint. Total is 1,277 as of August, 2004.

Ok, I feel better. I thought we were dealing with an "unnamed" former poster from Idaho that claimed to have taken a large number of animals that may not have been taken.
THanks

Gee, you think it was a typo?

Somewhat doubt Tony, or Ray, is worried about it!

MacD37,Will, or any one, how has been there,, why or what are the pros and cons ,on this ejectors/ extractors,,

Ejectors are faster, period. But they make a very audible "PING".

Extractor true believers will tell you that extractors are just as quick, it just ain't so.

The difference isn't likely to be critical either way and thousands of elephants have been killed with each.

In the days of proffesional ivory hunting some of the pros believed that the ping of the ejectors would give away a hunter's position resulting in either a charge or the elephants fleeing before more than one could be killed. Pro's typically had a gun bearer with another loaded, often heavier, rifle standing by in case they needed it.

In todays hunting this ping really isn't relavent since a hunter will most likely be taking only one elephant at a time, though occasionally a tuskless hunter may try for more than one from a herd. I did have some cows looking for us after killing one tuskless and I think the ping gave them an idea of where we were, before we beat a hasty retreat in thick green brush. In lieu of a gun bearer there was the PH with his rifle and me reloaded, should it have come to that.

At the range an extractor is easy to take the spent brass from for pocketing it for later reloading. With an ejector you must learn to catch the brass with the heel or palm of you hand as you open the rifle. It doesn't take much to get used to it but you will have some escape. Catch it wrong with a rifle with strong ejectors and it can sting but no big deal. In the feild I don't see this as an issue and when the action is over and you are drinking a cold beer awaiting the elephant recovery team or the buff being winched into the truck...its no big deal to police up your brass, but you might loose some here and there.

I have heard some claim that ejectors are less reliable. Since they are more complex I imagine that this is true. But today a hunter isn't in the bush for months and months at a time so any timing issues or whatever can be taken care of pre trip. At worst, a malfunctioning ejector is an extractor.

A bolt being cycled robustly makes more noise than the ping of ejectors but the ping definitely rings and catches attention.

JPK

Yea.

All this extractor stuff is a holdover from Taylor's day when guys tried to kill every elephant in sight, and didn't want the "ping" from ejectors. (Please read my father's books: John Taylor...they are the bibles of African cartridges, ballistics, and hunting )

The thing you have to teach yourself with ejectors is not to waste time trying to catch the ejected empties.

One may take issue with much that M. Sanchez-Ariño has to say, but his position on ejectors is unassailable, IMHO.

Which is why the Chapuis surpasses the Merkel, and merits the extra sheckels pour l'acheter.

I could also mention that annoying extension between the barrels that some doubles are burdened with, for the intersection and insertion of the supposedly strengthening Greener cross-bolt. But I just did, so I won't.

Although it does manage further to clumsify the Merkel to the point of elimination (and likewise eliminates the Heym).

Are we having any controversy yet?

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Ejectors are faster, period. But they make a very audible "PING".

In the days of proffesional ivory hunting some of the pros believed that the ping of the ejectors would give away a hunter's position resulting in either a charge or the elephants fleeing before more than one could be killed. Pro's typically had a gun bearer with another loaded, often heavier, rifle standing by in case they needed it.

In todays hunting this ping really isn't relavent since a hunter will most likely be taking only one elephant at a time, though occasionally a tuskless hunter may try for more than one from a herd. I did have some cows looking for us after killing one tuskless and I think the ping gave them an idea of where we were, before we beat a hasty retreat in thick green brush. In lieu of a gun bearer there was the PH with his rifle and me reloaded, should it have come to that.


JPK

JPK, pardon my snipping your post down, the above is something I would like to comment on!

You are correct in that the bigest reason for avoiding the noise by the old ivory hunters was to avoid giveing away their position while they reloaded the first barrel, while the Askaris were busy trying to find the cause of their boss's collapse. Addtionally,the ivory hunter wanted as many ele as he could knock down in close proximity to each other, for logistical reasons.

The danger to the shooter was the fact that the ele were hunted from within the herd, and many times the hunter was surrounded by elephant on all sides, in thick bush. The only thing we have today, that resembles the old ivory hunter's concerns, is the hunting of tuskless cows. This is the most dangerous hunting today,in heavy cover. Most bulls will seperate from the herd when first shot, if he can run. Cows, however, tend to rally round the fallen cow, and seek retrebution! Here is where the "PING" may get you more than you bargained for, because like lionesses, ele cows are hunted in pride/herds, where babies may need protecting, and you stand a real chance of a multiple charge, if they know where you are! Anything that exasorbates that chance is to be avoided.

The time difference with, or without ejectors is not great, and depends on who is useing each type system, whether the re-load is quicker with either type. The ejector "IS" quicker at getting the empties out of the rifle, but that is not all that is involved in the re-loading of a double rifle. Ejectors do not recharge the rifle, that is done by the shooter! A good man with extractors will always be faster to close the rifle on fresh loads, than a fumble fingered shooter digging cartridges out of his pockets, or from some belt!

However, I don't think it matters, one way or the other, in most hunting today. The old saw that we always hear is "YOU ARE BACKED UP BY A PH!" It is my opinion, one should consider himself alone when it comes to protecting his own life. To do that, one must have the rifles set up as well as he can,in proper chamberings, with proper bullets for the job, and know how to use it effectively. If the PH helps, fine, but one should be of the mind, my life is "MY" responsibility, not the PH's!

I'm not saying that someone can't do it, but I'd like to see the average hunter get four shots off with a double as fast as I can work a bolt. Ain't gonna happen. The very best and most practiced might be able to keep up, but compare them to an old competitive high power shooter with a bolt, and I think they'll come up short again. If you compare a practiced double shooter to someone who can't work the bolt from the shoulder, yes the double will win. I am also noticeably slower from the shoulder with a scoped bolt rifle, compared to one with open sights, you just have something else to work around. This is not dangerous game, but I grew up shooting running coyotes in front of dogs and have many times killed doubles with a bolt action .220 Swift on running coyotes and dropped them 25-30 yards apart at 150-200 yards. Anyone who has ever shot one coyote knows how they kick into overdrive after the first shot. I sure as hell know dove hunting with a double, you can waste a lot of time loading one while birds are flying over and a rifle or shotgun can't be much different.

Excellent posts by JPK and Mac.
I have been on 2 Safaris totaling around 50 hunting days. On both trips I took one ejector double a Chapuis 9,3x74R, and one extractor double a 450 No2. I hunted elephants, bulls and cows, and buffalo both times. I have used my ejector 450/400 on bear and caribou. All 3 have killed deer and several pigs each.
I can use either type of double interchangeably, without thought. For me I can reload the ejector a litle bit faster, however most ot the time I "catch" my brass and put it in my pocket, WHEN not under duress.
So for me whether or not a double had ejectors or not would not in any way matter in my decision to purchase a particular double. You can always disable ejectors if you so desire.

However I do believe that for elephant hunting in the thick jess I prefer an extractor gun for the reasons listed in posts above.

jstevens
I know I can shoot 4 shots faster from my Blaser R 93 than I can from my doubles.
I am fairly good with both.
However it is not all about speed.
The real benefit is ABSOLUTE reliability, or as near to it as you can get.
You, or I, only have to have one misfeed, failure to eject, etc. With a double you have 2 shots, you reload and you have 2 more, you reload and have 2 more. Now I have even surpassed my Blaser speed. Shots 5 and 6, and 8 will be faster with the double.
Plus the double just handles better.

Simply said I prefer the quicker, more reliable right/left of the double to the extra rounds in the gun of a bolt action.
I have been in several herds of elephants, and shot some as close as 6 yards. For me a double is the best choice.
I would rather have my 9,3x74R double, that a 500 bolt rifle.
I have brained elephant at 6 yards with the right bbl and had it reloaded before the elephant has finished falling.
I can prove that as it is on video, more than once.

It all boils down to personal choice.
My PH Donza was a confirmed bolt man. After seeing me use my doubles on my last Safari, I think he is starting to see the light, and has actually talked about getting one.

Thanks all, I will just say that it doesn't make any sense to me,, but I haven't hunted over there,, I do read and have a large collection of mag's and books written by the Pros, but its always nice to hear from those , whom have been lately

Mac,

I know you are a true believer wrt extractors since you disable the ejectors or your rifles equipped with them. But your example in your post about reloading speed just doesn't stand up. Take two fellows equally adept at reloading their rifles and the fellow with the ejectors will be first, even you seem to concede this. But try not to handi cap the ejector man by making him all thumbs!

My experience with elephants has been with tuskless cows and I am familiar with how agressive and obnoxious they can be and with both how agressively protective cows can be and how angry they can get when they are looking for you after the shot. I still prefer ejectors.

We are in agreement when it comes to not relying on a PH to save your bacon. Might as well acknowledge that he is there and capable of making some contribution to the general well being of himself, the trackers and the hunter.

JStevens and NE 450 No2,

I have never seen a fellow who could fire four aimed rounds from a heavy recoiling bolt rifle faster than a fellow shooting a DR with about equal recoil. I can believe that there are those who can, but I suspect they are rare as hen's teeth. I don't believe that anyone can beat a fellow with a DR for two shots and, like NE 450 No2, I like two up front, then another two...Prefferably just the first one!

JPK

Editted when I had a bit more time.