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One of Us |
The Rem 700 in Africa thread got me thinking about convertng a push feed Model 70 to some sort of claw extractor. How feasible/costly would that conversion be? It must be cheaper to buy a used push feed Model 70 and convert it to claw extractor than most of the other options being suggested on the REM 700 thread for Model 700s. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | ||
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| one of us |
Just curiosity, but why would you want to do this? CRF Winchester 70s are so inexpensive. Just buying a CRF 70 to start with would have to be cheaper than any conversion assuming it could be done which I doubt. Incidently, some time ago, before the new CRF 70s came out, I used a push feed 70 in .375 and another in .300 H&H with no problems at all but I still like the CRF better. | |||
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| One of Us |
Such a conversion would be a real big deal. Even if you had done all that was necessary to alter the bolt and alter the receiver to take the new bolt you might run into feeding problems. The timimg of the cartridge leaving the magazine is far more critical for CRF than PF. The case must slide up under the extractor and do it while cartridge is at angle. A regular check of the Gunsmith forum of this site will show feeding problems are virtually always with CRF actions and that with actions that have been made as CRFs from the start Like JBD I have oned both the PF M70s and CRF M70s but prefer the PF M70s. Mike | |||
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There may be quite a lot of Model 70 pushfeeds out there. If their only sin is not being CRF then I am curious to know why so much trouble is exerted converting Remingtons and others to CRF and so little trouble converting pushfeed Model 70s. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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It is akin to making a silk purse out of a sows ear.... It can be done, but one could trade his pushfeed in for a pre 64 for about $250 to $400 depending on the pre 64 and that would be cheaper than the conversion your referring to.. Few 700s have ever been converted and those that have were less than acceptable IMO, what most 700 have had done is the addition or a Sako extractor, another waist of time and money IMO... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Gee.....mine shoots pretty well.   Best, JohnTheGreek P.S. Just buy a new one in .375 or .416 and use the PF gun on plains game. | |||
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One of Us |
Wink, I would think a simple sako type extractor would be inexpensive. This usually costs about $125 on a Remington 700. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Wink, With respect, I think you are reading the postings on converting Rem 700s to CRF in the wrong contetx. It is not the Rem 700 rifle that is being suggested to be converted to CRF but rather the owner changes his rifle to a CRF. Personally, if my life depended on it I would take a PF Model 70 over the CRF M70 everytime and doubly so if I lost my ammo and was forced to use some crappy 375 ammo. And contrary to popular opinion on these forums the PF would let me hang from a tree and work the rifle upside down. Actually the two most reliable feeding 375s out there at the moment would be the Rem 700 African Big Game Rifle and the HS Precission. Reason being PF and single stack centre line feed. Oh....and the Sauer would be the same. But they are quite a bit more costly than a M70 or CZ CRF 375 In addition the HS Precision offers a 10 round magazine as an option. Vertical stack centre line feed is the true CRF. The round really is controlled when being fed. Mike | |||
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Winchester has quietly dropped the push-feed M70, replacing it with the Controlled Round Push Feed (CRPF). The perceived need for controlled round feed killed an otherwise great rifle. I would look around and buy the PF versions; pretty soon people will be wanting them. I also would not try to convert the PF: either buy the Classic (which is improved over the pre-'64) or the CRPF. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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My first big game rifle was a Model 70 push feed in 30-06 I got on my 15th birthday in 1966. I thought it was the most gorgeous rifle ever built (in reality, it was a cheap, ugly POS -- quality-wise -- but it shot good). That gun has killed scores of deer and a bear or two over the years. A while back, it developed a crack in the stock and, as groups had been opening up a bit, it just took its place in the rear of the gun safe, with 15 or 20 other rifles stacked in front of it. Then one day I decided to revive the old girl, for sentimental reasons if for nothing else. This year that rifle will make its first trip to Africa, only the old gray mare ain't what she used to be. She's now a .35 Whelen with a brand new Hart barrel and an action bedded into a Bell and Carlson stock. Only the reciever remains original. I hope to use it to take my first ever leopard. Don't know what this has to do with the original post, but it gave me an excuse to talk about my "new" push feed Model 70. | |||
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Mike, the CRF's are only prone to feeding problems when the magazine and feed rails are not setup cartridge specific, especially the magazine. Find any original Mauser still in its from factory chambering and see if it has feeding problems. Many manufacturers go with a one size fits all or most concept and that doesn't work with the CRF system. I would think that when properly setup a good CRF rifle will be at least as reliable as the push feed. And no, I am not biased, I own a push feed 22lr. Red | |||
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Red I agree...conversions are a real problem for them. Shit brass with burrs on the rims or to deep or too shallow extractor grooves fucks them up. The bottom line is that a push feed vertical stack centre line feed will beat any CRF staggered feed for reliability of feeding and espeicially when the going gets rough. Back in the 60s and early 70s when many of us were using cut down mility rifles to shoot, the 303 SMLE, Mauser and M17 the 303 would eat the others for breakfast. Chasing roos and pigs in a vehichle and especially spotlighting gets rough on the rifles. I also think the most reliable feeders are those that do the lot from the magazine which includes Wbys, the old Kricos, Sauers. Give me Echols best effort and I will toss the bolt out of the car while chasing and a M70 PF and I bet the M70 PF is the one with no problems. Having said all of that, if I was having a real top grade custom rifle made in 375 H&H then it would be on a CRF action. A nice working CRF for example just looks nicer when it is working in the lounge room. But there is a fair bit of BS with CRF. For example, the amount of extractor that actually engages the case rim is quite a bit smaller than it looks. The PF extractor also tries to rotate the case at the same time as it pulls it back. Actually, if you wanted to go to extremes you could have a PF extractor that grabbed half the case rim like a shell holder because the case does not need to slide into it. If you don't mind single shot a Witcita mini bench action will win any extraction contest because the bolt head is a shell holder Mike | |||
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Dago are you sure your .22 is push feed? Look again......I bet its a CFR. FNMauser Strike while the iron is hot! Look before you leap!He who hesitates is lost! Slow and steady wins the race! Time waits for no man! A stitch in time saves nine! Make hay while the sun shines! ect. ect. | |||
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| <allen day> |
The best, most cost-effective, and most conversion possible is to trade your rifle in on a factory-original CRF Model 70 Classic. Why take the long way around the barn? AD | ||
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Because he is a gun enthusiast Mike | |||
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one of us |
I am curious as to how many of you have actualy had problems with a push feed , i brought this subject up with a gunsmith the other day and his reaction was just the opposite he had told me he had seen more malfuntions with the claw not grabbing the shell at all and less problems with the pushfeed. In my club we have around 5 rem 700 bought between 1969 and 1972 thats 33 to 36 years without a single malfuntion. | |||
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This is really a silly thread. There is really nothing wrong with a push to feed anything. I prefer the pre-64 or Classic type with Mauser 98 type included. Folks are lying to you if they tell you that the Remington/Winchester push to feed rifles are faultless. THEY ARE NOT! I have owned exactly 4 Remington rifles they all had ejector problems within 50 shots which is my normal break in protocol. Two of them had serious feeding issues, popping a round out of the magazine well with the round sitting cross wise and blocking the next round. The push to feed Winchesters also have a similar problem. They are usable and doable. They are not perfect either. Try to replace the extractor on your Remington or push feed Winchester, in the bush. It isn't going to happen. Try to fix your plunger ejector in the bush it isn't going to happen. When I go on a long trip I have a pre-64 repair kit with me and I can strip the action and replace every spring, extractor, etc.----you know where I am coming from, on the spot. Try fixing a trigger on a Remington. It ain't going to happen. Things are just a bit easier and convenient on the Model 70 as well as the Mauser 98. You probably will never need to do major maintenance on your rifle on the trip, however, knowing that you can makes me feel a lot better an more prepared for the event. Accuracy with either is a non issue as almost any rifle will print at least a 2" group at 100 yards. For the big stuff this is sufficient the way I think. Choose your poison well and hope it doesn't have a chance to poison you!!!!! square shooter | |||
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Replacing M70 PF extractor is easy. | |||
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As easy as the real model70???// No special tools??? square shooter | |||
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| One of Us |
A paper clip or any thin piece of wire Plus a PF can be set up to swap barrels between actions, you cant do that on the CRF action because of having to line up the extractor slot. | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Mike is right, replacing a model PF extractor is a piece of cake. Taking its bolt apart is also a piece of cake - no special tools. For that matter, field stripping a 700 bolt is a piece of cake if have have a pocket knife and average or better grip strength. Unlike most people on this board (apparently) I like both PF and CRF and have little to complain about either. I've owned or worked with literally scores of model 721s, 722s, and 700s and have not had even one extractor failure, a few of these actions are on the 3rd or 4th barrels as well. Many times, in my youthful reloading practices, did I have to pound open the bolt, the 721, 722, and 700 extractors and solder-on bolt handles never faltered. I have had many CRF Winchesters and Rugers and have likewise had good experiences. I will say this though: I'd take a proven PF before I'd take a new CRF that I had yet to break in; vice versa as well, of course. | ||
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9.3 X 62 I am like you in that I like both. I like the CRF because you can run cartridges thriugh the magazine without having to close the bolt and thus "load" the rifle. I also like CRF when shooting because you can have a round oushed forward but the bolt handle open and again do not have to "load" the rifle to get the case out. Because I have a strong bench type back ground and switch barrels and bewtween actions, the CRF M70 stops that because of the extractor slot. I suppose a Mauser would be fine but they don't have the bedding congiguration or 3 lever triggers available. I think a proper working CRF is a nicer thing to watch working but I think a centre line feed PF will will win on reliabilit of feeding and especially with calibres where the bulley dimater is not much smaller than chamber diameter and is a blunt bullet. Perhaps taken all round the HS Precision might be the best, PF centre line feed, wide extractor, one piece bolt, Winchester style safety. One of the interesting things things is that the Rem 700 is much maligned for the non itegral recoil lug (and I hate it myself) yet it results in more stock material behind the recoil lug than other rifles. Is is funny that the two most maligned rifles on this form would be the Rem 700 and Wby Mark V yet the Rem 700 has propbablt been the biggest selling bolt action and the Wby has probably been the biggest selling of the more expensive rifles. The other thing is that it is often cliamed that PF is done for cheapness but of the more common rifles encountered it is the PFs which are the most expensive rifles (in factroy format)...the Wby, Sauer, Blaser, HS Precision and Sako. Perhaps the most maligned of all the rifles is the Browning A Bolt but it seems to have the most satisfied owners  Mike | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Mike: I must not be understanding what you're saying. A PF (blind)mag can easily be emptied without completely chambering the round - just push the bolt until the round pops from of the mag lips, retract the bolt and pick it out with your fingers. True, the extrator is not part of the process with a PF - maybe that's what you mean. Yes, there are quite a few spendy PFs around and, somewhat ironically, quite a few cheap CRFs. The Rugers, used Mausers, and standard Winchesters are hardly rich-man-only rifles. It is true though - watching a good CRF function is a thing of beauty. | ||
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So if I rebarrel my Model 70 push feed for a .416 Taylor (I've got a standard length bolt) than some of you guys will still have drink with me at the Pamodzi in Lusaka? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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9.3, No, I was just thinking about when feeding from the magazine was being tested. A gunsmiths who use to post here and HuntAmerica a lot, Jack Belk, use to predict we would see the day when M70 and Rem 700 both moved to in line feed and the WSM calibres would be one of the pushers. Actually, if the magazine is wide so the cartridges sit staggered but of course are fed in a sraight line through the lips of thr magazine you do not lose that much capacity. The drop magazines that allows Wbys to hold 3 of the 378 based calibres does not protrude far below the stock. Quite a few 500 Jefferys are made in Australia and they all done with verticak stack in line. Actually, for a CRF it would made them more reliable in feeding because apart from the straight line feed the case rim does not need to slip under extractor at an angle, well at least not two angles. But it would not look as nice as staggered feed CRF working. Mike | |||
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For calibers under .375 H&H I'd personally far prefer a push feed M-70 over any other action. Further for any varmint round such as .243, .22-250 etc I wouldn't have a CRF action in any manner.....it would be a push feed or find itself in someone els's cabinet. CRF is for dangerous game and nothing else IMO.....everyone else can do as they please. I have a M-70 PF in .270FWT and a Rem 721 PF in .300 H&H and woth work so well that I'd never consider changing them. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
One of the 9.3x62s I've had was built on a model 70 PF - shot great and functioned flawlessly. I'd built one again... | ||
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