Why is it that many people seem to fall in love with their PH to the point that they can not see any fault with them?

Whenever you read a report on AR the person either was screwed or had God's own PH, there is hardly ever any balanced PH reports.

Why is it that 99% of the people that go on a hunt anywhere in Africa come back without a single complaint about the PH or for that matter anything that they would have changed? I'm dumbfounded that 99% of the people that I talk to had 100% "meeting of the minds" so to speak with their PH and had the perfect hunt. Every hunt I've ever been on I come back with things that I would have changed, or things I wish the guide or PH would have done differently. I still have had a great time on each hunt, but I've never been in 100% agreement on everything, I would think that would be impossible.

The reason I even bring this up is that I just had some friends return from RSA. On returning from their first trip to RSA the PH was just so wonderful and the best thing going. On hearing the stories from this latest trip this PH is now the best thing going and the trip before they view as crap. Now without a doubt, when you have two things to compare, the first may not look as good as it once did, but the more you talk to them the more it seems the PH was bashing everyone in sight and they have formed their opinions on things from his. I myself could not be around a PH that was in his 20's and was bashing all the well known PH's and slaming other operations.

Heard stories on how terrible some of the big name guys are, how terrible some of the more famous American hunters are etc...

To me is seems like this guy was full of B.S. and trying to make himself look better by making everyone else look worse.

They did a fence lion hunt and the one thing that really struck me as odd was their PH was claiming that PH's in Botswana were taking on clients for Botswana lion and instead of hunting in Botswana they would drive them back across the border to RSA and without the client knowing and have them shoot a lion in RSA for a lot less than the Botswana cost and would pocket all the extra money. Now this seems very odd to me, for one with shipping it back it seems there would be issues, also, how does a client not realize they just crossed back into RSA?? It was my understanding that there is a fence between Botswana and RSA and you have to use a border crossing, so is it even possible to not know your crossing the border??

Don't know why this I even care, perhaps because this PH just seems more like a snake oil sales man.

Most of the PH's I've hunted with have been nice guys. But everyone is different and some you get on with better than others. Not a big surprise.

You go to Africa typically in great weather with the opportunity to shoot more game in a week than in 20 years in the States, get waited on hand-and-foot, eat very well, have great accommodations usually, and you wonder why guys fall in love with the place, and their PH's.

I can only speak from my own experience with my PH Claude Kleynhans and his wife Jill.

My wife and I were treated with great respect. My PH never talked bad about others and was as fine a person as I have ever met. We had a successfull and satisfying hunt.

Even after several years Claude and Jill are still our extended family.

Everyone's experience is different, as well as their preception of their treatment and satisfaction.
If you return from your hunt and the PH hasn't become one of your new best friends, then something was wrong! Just my opine!

I can't help you with the majority of this but I will say you can quite easily drive across the border right across the limpopo river in plenty of places when it's dry. There are stretches of the limpopo river that are dry for many hundreds of meters in June or later. I know of no fence between the two countries. Maybe landowner fences but where I hunt the limpopo there is no fence on the RSA side or as far as you can see on the Botswana side.

If a Botswana outfitter is shooting lions in RSA I see no reason to think a client would know they crossed a border. It would not be obvious at all especially if done early or late while the sun was down.

I can't speak for everybody, but when I was "Over There", I found the Ph and staff to be very service oriented. I don't see this very often in the states. Maybe after I have a few more trips under my belt I will find something to complain about other than plane ride.

quote:

Why do people fall in love with their PH??

Good question! I've often wondered why people keep hunting with the same PH or guide year after year. I've got a buddy who has hunted with the same western elk guide for a number of years and plans to go back. I on the other hand have only hunted with one guy twice. To me hunting new areas, meeting new people, seeing different country and just getting there has always been a big part of the fun. But after this last trip to Africa I've now seen the risk and the down side of this approach. Your rolling the dice and your not always going hit a home run. On this last trip the Ph and I just never clicked. He wanted to do more truck tracking than I did and he encouraged us to shot from the truck. So I now see some of the wisdom in hunting with someone you know.

For many of us, their first trip to Africa is probably their first guided hunt, was for me anyway. If the PH is pleasent, knowledgable & attentive, you get the animlas or most of them you are after, not a lot to compare or complain about. Now as you make more trips, maybe diff. PHs, you now have things to compare, camps, hutning styles, staff, food, etc. Different opinions will come up. I've hunted in Africa twice & hunted w/ several diff. PHs. I have my favorites that are welcome in my home anytime & I hope to hunt ith them again.

Maybe I'm just too picky

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed every trip I've been on emensly, for me it seems more like people that call their PH part of the family, or a great friend ... are for lack of a better term, guide groupies. For some reason people seem to be drawn to "guides"(ph's also) and want to be associated with them. Maybe Will is right, it is the lure of Africa, or by staying in contact with a PH or Guide, you feel like your still connected. I've hunted with some very nice people, but I can't say I've ever forged a lifelong friendship in 10 days with anyone, let alone someone I was conducting business with.

I guess I just don't understand. The agent I went to Argentina with this year had been going with the same guide for 20 years and has made 70+ trips there and so I can understand him bringing baby cloths etc... but to feel that sort of bond with someone after 10 days is just odd to me.

Is it just an American thing that we feel the need to help the "poor 3rd world country ph", or is it because typically right from day 1 any good PH treats you like part of the family and even though they do that for everyone we feel as though we are special?

It's just confusing to me.

You are a stranger in a strange land finally realizing (in many cases) a lifetime dream come true. The person that helps that dream become a reality often becomes larger than life.

A man who has intimate knowledge of something totally foreign to you is your guide on an adventure that will become legendary in your mind.

Ever have a teacher in school that was really a teacher and made the subject come alive for you? I had a lot of bad ones and only a very few good ones and those are the ones I remember.

Also, where else are you going to spend 12-14 hours a day with a new aquaintence for 10+ days of exciting and highly emotional time? For some this is literally the time of their lives and they will relive it hundreds, if not thousands of times. A little romance is bound to creep in and the whole experience (not just the PH) becomes larger than life as time goes on.

Think back to all the firsts in your life, be they love, sex, hunting or whatever. At the time, and for a long time after, each was the absolute best. Now, with a bit more experience, age and hopefully wisdom, you can be more objective and find the faults, disappointments and other flaws that were once clouded by enthusiasm.

I have been lucky enough that all my trips to Africa have been spectacular but the first safari and the first PH will always be a special memory...simply because they were the first. Much like your first true love, you probably didn't marry her but I'll bet you never forget her.

Good question and one I have thought about too. I spend a lot of time researching who I book with and I have said many times that a hunt isn't successful only on the merits of what is shot. For me, it is more dependent on the overall experience and the one thing that contributes to that more than any other is the guide (if there is one) and any other people that might be there. Also, there is much to be said about the bond that forms from hunting dangerous game together.

I have hunts booked for Zim and RSA and feel very good about the PH's I have booked with. In fact, we have already made plans to fish together in my neck of the woods.

I agree that this is a common occurrence and I myself felt the same about my PH after my first safari to Zambia. So much so that I designed a web page for him (www.prohuntzambia.com), unsolicited and at no charge, simply because of the gratitude that I felt towards the experience he provided.

I think it boils down to human nature and what some Psychologists call the feeling of “Community†or what we might describe as a “shared ordealâ€. This is why every Saturday night throughout America, thousands of old men get together in VFW halls to talk about their war experiences. It’s really not about the war experience per se, but about the unique closeness they felt with their fellow soldiers during a horrible and dangerous time of their lives, and how that closeness brought them to rely on each other in a way that doesn’t occur in normal life. I’m sure these guys would consider their fellow soldiers as “friends†as well, even though they may have nothing in common and come from different racial and ethnic backgrounds.

Obviously a safari isn’t exactly like war, but it does have some similarities. We first time safari hunters (recruits) are thrown into a hostile environment, not knowing quite what to expect and end up relying on our PH for every aspect of our survival on a hunt that may involve hardships, discomfort and in some cases true danger. It’s understandable then that a hunter would come away with a stronger bond with his PH, than say a tour guide that you may spend a week with. That this bond may be mostly one sided doesn’t change that fact in the least.

Hey, we adults can enjoy this feeling for what it is, even though we may intellectually realize it is a bit of an illusion. Hell, with all the disillusionments we face as we get older, it’s kind of nice to hold on to this rather harmless one.

/

I agree with GMaxson, there is a bit of 'hero-worship' that goes on.

After reading countless books by Ruark et al, people sometimes feel like the PH isreally be a larger than life character.

In reality, it is hard NOT to get along with someone in the wonderful surroundings of most African bush camps....unless there is a major problem.
When you return from a trip, it is much nicer to remember the highs than to whine about small character flaws to the world and that is why I suspect the majority of Hunt Reports are 100% upbeat.

Last night I watched "The Francis MaComber Affair" taken from Hemingway's The Short Happy Life of Francis MaComber. Some AR member was kind enough to send me the DVD and I've forgotten who it was... but, thank you!

In that case, the wife literally "fell in love" with the PH and did the dirty deed right in the camp...

I believe the reason was pretty clear. PH Wilson had a .505 Gibbs and poor Francis only had a .30/06.

GL Krause post was probably as good a answer as you're likely to get.

I agree with your thoughts on this but I'm afraid it's hope against hope. I know one of these love stricken hunters and he's yet to show any logical development of this relationship with the PH.

In coming here I have found your observations spot on, seems everyone has the perfect PH almost a dying devotion with someone they barely know. I don't get it either, but I'm glad it's not the other way around.

Good answers. I guess I'm either too logical or too cynical to really hold that type of illusion, I wish I could, I just can't though. On my first trip to Africa, I was overwhelmed at the treatment we were getting, but I can't say that I felt any special bond, just appreciation to the attention we were receiving. I ph's and guides that I enjoy spending time with and would hunt with again, but I guess I've never felt such a strong connection to a ph as you see with many people that post reports here. It's really not fair of me to call it a business transaction, but it essentially is, you are paying them for a service. Now, if you worked in the same office together with the guy or belong to the same gun club, you might get along just fine with each other and develope a freindship, but when they are getting paid to cater to you(even if it is just their normal nature to be nice) I don't see how people are so sure they have a mutual friendship. Like I said, there is a chance I am just too cynical.

It would be interesting to get Ganyana's or ALF's take on this.

quote:

Why do people fall in love with their PH??

Perhaps Bunny Allen knew.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Why do people fall in love with their PH??

Perhaps Bunny Allen knew.

Bunny's book was the worst i've ever read. Nothing about his PHing - all about his hunting the ladies in camp.

I have great respect for the two PHs I had the opportunity to hunt with. Both were truly professional - tending to whatever needed tending to, solid on hunting skills, accommodating, etc.

I have a greater respect for their people skills based on the crap they have to put up with from some of their clients. I would be the first to admit that I could not do what they do (even if I had the game skills, etc.). I know we all think we are the perfect client but these guys really have to put up with some doosies.

Last year when I arrived in camp, I overlapped one day with an east-coast dentist and his "girlfriend." What a dope. The guy drank like a fish, his girlfriend laughed like a jackal through all hours of the night, short-changed the guide/PH, etc. etc. etc. I could go on and on but you get the point. They have to put up with a real range of people types.

In hearing the PH's war stories of past clients, I get the sense that some hunters go over with a real demanding attitude and are just plain assholes. The PHs just have to grin and bear it. Clearly, these types are not in the majority but it only takes a few to make for a miserable year for them.

I often wondered how much apprehension they must have when someone books a 21 day full bag that they have never met only to find out that after two days with the hunter, they want to strangle the guy. Humm, two days down and nineteen yet to go. Think about it from their perspective.

African PH's practice extremely powerful voodoo mind control techniques. For instance if you watch Mark Sullivan's video's, he shoots his clients game for them, and they ,amazingly, turn around, smile, shake his hand, and thank him.

The more game the better the PH. Or at least it seems that way.Ive met lots of western big game guides who were really just kids with no education or knowledge of their surroundings. Most of the African PH's Ive met were both educated and had lots of game to hunt.

I didn't "fall in love" with my Ph in Namibia. His hair wasn't long enough and he didn't have the right equipment.
I do respect him, and consider him a friend.

A good PH knows he is in the SERVICE industry, pure and simple. They make an effort and hopefully they will have a bearable hunt.

If you make an effort, as in anything, you will get more out of the experience.

And as someone posted, just being in Africa is enough..........

quote:

Originally posted by douglast:
In hearing the PH's war stories of past clients, I get the sense that some hunters go over with a real demanding attitude and are just plain assholes. The PHs just have to grin and bear it. Clearly, these types are not in the majority but it only takes a few to make for a miserable year for them.

I have had a PH like that and while his PHing skill was good his personality was of a "spoilt child". See how a PH talks about previous clients to judge the PH's TRUE personality. I could give comments to members of AR on what their "best friend" PHs said about them after they had left.

I won't say anymore so not to upset anyone.

***

If a PH makes 'friends' with you he is much more likely to get repeat business. A hunt with companions is a bonding experience with males, since Neanderthal man hunted mammoths in packs. However remember you never need to "pay" a friend to hunt with you.

I don't know about "falling in love" with a PH, however, I tend to use suppliers:sub-contractors, material suppliers, equipment operators, grocery stores, ad naseum with whom I have achieved a comfort leve; so, why not apply the same logic to a PH with whom you are investing several thousands of dollars

Also, VFW chapters exist because no one who has not experienced combat does not understand what we are talking about!

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
I don't know about "falling in love" with a PH, however, I tend to use suppliers:sub-contractors, material suppliers, equipment operators, grocery stores, ad naseum with whom I have achieved a comfort leve; so, why not apply the same logic to a PH...

Exactly. Many of us are fortunate enough to have businesses with a loyal customer base, and this type of relationship is nothing new to us. We have a percentage of clients that we get to know very well and form a bond with. We appreciate their referrals and efforts that help our enterprises remain strong and healthy. We benefit from their continued business, and they receive in many cases preferential treatment in terms of QOS, scheduling, etc - and we both enjoy an open, honest and mutually-beneficial working relationship. Perhaps there is not an appropriate term for this type of client-relationship. But why not consider them "friends", where's the harm, after all it depends on how narrowly you define the term "friend". And don't forget that it is a two-way street, in that if they stop buying I likely will not have a reason to stay in constant touch with them and like so many friends over the years we will "drift apart"…but if I stop selling and/or providing top quality service, they are going to move on too.

When I go on a hunt I am not necessarily looking for a new friend, and I doubt that my Dall sheep guide in the NWT this Aug and I will become close lifetime buddies. But who knows...at the very least I am sure we will get along, and I will find some redeeming qualities in him to respect and admire, and he me. 10 days backpacking in difficult conditions, together 24hrs a day, when do you share this with the neighbor down the street? I think some of it as stated depends on the common experiences shared, and if you are 1x1 (when with an observer the dynamics are different).

Personally, I had one terrible outfitter in SA on my first hunt, in hingsight just a rotten, drunken POS. And a "master guide" in Alaska who was an absolute futz-up. Both were struggling with personal demons and the bottle (and neither were ever mentioned here on the forum). So they are out there and moving fwd I would not hesitate to call a spade a spade. But given these experiences I have learned what to look for and have been able to make good decisions and hunt with some excellent PH's since then. Perfect, of course not, nobody is including the man in the mirror. Good enough for me to call "friends" - YES, you bet. Some tighter then others, and I hope the feeling is mutual.

Last thought...one does not need to hunt in Africa to get a reputation, posting on the Internet is more then sufficient.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
I have had a PH like that and while his PHing skill was good his personality was of a "spoilt child".

I've had a PH who fit "spoilt child" to a T. Him and another PH also enjoyed talking about past clients, which I find to be in poor taste. If they are talking to you about other hunters then they are going to talk to the next guy about YOU. Really, of the three PHs we've hunted with there is only one that I would recommend or would hunt with again.

Good observations by all.Interesting subject ,because realizing it may give a clearer perspective .

Hunting - for most of us - is a territory we like to master but realize we are ,more or less, amateurs.
This is especially true when venturing into foreign lands with unknown customs and hunting environment.
We realize that we would not succeed if we had to do it alone.We soak up and learn like a child attached to a knowledgable teacher.
Because of inexperience, we also lack the foundation for comparisons.So, although our teacher / Ph might in reality be average, we dont know that.
With experience gathered,we get better at categorizing,as we have a database to compare with.

Because of time ,expense and the above mentioned trust/adoration - many will continue with the same PH and never be able to compare.We dont like to rock the boat and chance a dissatisfactory expensive venture- so we stay with what we know,limited as it may be.


For the PH, his profession is a service industry.He knows his future business relies on recommendations.So if he is halfway decent, he will sell himself-hopefully thru deeds not words.In the eye of his customer,he becomes a "friend" that can be trusted and cherished to be with.

De facto though,in 99% of cases its only a business arrangement as BillC clearly emphasizes.

We,the customer,because of our reliance on the selected PH,wish things to go well,we trust the PH and marvel at his ability that we would like to master, as we are hobbyist in his profession.

Should we then learn at some time,that the PH is question is less than honest in words or acts,we choose not to believe the facts,make excuses for him and continue our mental alliance - because,as with a teacher,priest,physician
we formed a trust with that person.We dont like to question that trust.

That's why it hurts so deeply when we finally must conclude that this "friend" , cherished teacher,etc.. used us,abused our trust.
We dont want to loose that person we cherished but come to the conclusion that he cast us off,abandoned the friendship he was selling,without regard to our feelings or wellbeing - solely for his own personal or economical reasons.
For him its a business decision.for us its loosing a person we liked.

Sheephunter, pls let me clarify that for me it is NOT totally a "business arrangement", regardless if I am the seller or the buyer, abeit it may be based on such. And this is the point that I am trying most to make, that IMO it is "okay" to consider client-relationships as friendships.

"Falling in love" per the original question...well that is a different thing and maybe as described above, it is more "admiration". But again, what's wrong with this if that's ones's thing? I of course understand the point you are making reg a "broken heart" based on your past, and somewhat unique experience. Regards, Bill

I can tell you a good historie about a local hunter who went on safari to Africa with his young wife ,he told me he never notice anything but when he returned to Argentina his wife decided to stay in Africa because he was in love with the PH ,this is true ,Juan

Falling in love?

Deeply impressed would be much more accurate. These families work very hard, and do a great job. They are personable. The only gripe I heard was that they do so much to deliver the hunt, and the taxidermist gets as much as they do. My reply was not as considerate as I might have been. I was thinking about how musicians would get $.05 or $.06 on each record copy back when I was a kid, whereas the record store would get 30% or more. what came out of my mouth was "hmm... sounds about right..." and by that, I didn't mean fair -- just that it sounded like what might be expected. While there was much discussion about the business, the way the gov't works, etc, I heard precious little about gripes about other PHs. They seemed only to hold their competition in deepest respect, or didn't talk about it.



Dan

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
I can tell you a good historie about a local hunter who went on safari to Africa with his young wife ,he told me he never notice anything but when he returned to Argentina his wife decided to stay in Africa because he was in love with the PH ,this is true ,Juan

Juan
Is the PH still PHing? Who was it, just curious? It's amazing that sort of thing can go on right under your nose while having the time of your life.

BillC

Your two posts sum it up bloody well.

I used to work in the service industry, as a state manager for a big developer.

The people who behave decently and are kind to you......... ALWAYS get treated well in return. The pricks get the opposite

Suppliers, contractors etc who did the right thing always got better treatment and faster payment. Amazing

Clients should always rember it is a two way street when hunting. Act like a princess and you will get treated like a c**t

I believe hes still guiding ,but she left him and married a SA military men ,and shes living near one of my lodges ,you must understand that i cannot say more ,NO NAMES.Juan

Save me some reading: Is this thread gay?

Bill C, I understand where you are comming from, I would imagine that you also have the ability to see the world when hunting without rose colored glasses. 90% of the people that I talk to or reports you read hear are people that upon returning from a trip are so infatuated with their PH that they are now life long frinds etc...

I can understand respecting your PH, or getting along great with them, I just don't understand people that tip outragous amounts, send Christmas cards, have them come stay a week with them and sing their praises as if they are the closest thing to God on this earth and claim themselves to be the best of friends or almost family.

I'd be curious to hear from PH's as to what percentage of their clients they would consider great friends or family. My guess would be there are a lot of clients whose PH does not share the same feelings toward them.

"falling in love with your PH" ?????

Yes very very gay unless you hunt with this beautiful PH:



A pretty Nordic blonde, who hunts, shoots, PHs, and has her own access to African safari concessions.

I am already in 'love'.

Gentleman:
In my limited experiance, I think that your P.H. is the best friend money can buy. The first words out of my P.H.'s mouth wasn't how do you do my name is, it was , are you going to tip by the tipping schedule or what? As Nitrox said ,a spoiled child, with whom i almost came to blows with twice as his supposed loyal trackers backed up to give me clear shot at him with smiles on thier faces on my safari with HHK.in 2000.

Paul K.

I have never fallen in love with a PH but if I ever have a lady PH that might change. PHs are humans and as such all have faults. All mine have had some minor faults but not as many as I have.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
"falling in love with your PH" ?????

Yes very very gay unless you hunt with this beautiful PH:



A pretty Nordic blonde, who hunts, shoots, PHs, and has her own access to African safari concessions.

I am already in 'love'.

NitroX,
Could you please give details on how to book with her? Maybe some tea on the blue sofa around the campfire at night? I will forego Castle and biltong for that. Of course my wife may come too if she wishes. Blue Sofa!