I am tossing around the notion of reducing the LOP on the 404J I am building for Cape Buff. I measure 13 1/2 but cannot reach the bolt handle with the rifle on my shoulder with this measurement.

Should this be a concern? Will the recoil make it impossible for me to chamber a second round with the rifle shouldered?

The rifle feels good at 13 1/2, trigger is in just the right place as is my grip.

I realize this is more of a gunsmithing topic but posted it here to get feedback from people who have actually hunted.

What's the current LOP on the rifle?

It sounds like your measured LOP is 13.5"

LOP makes a huge difference for me - but in the other direction. My LOP is 15" and most American rifles are 13 5/8", European rifles are a bit longer, usually 14-14.5".

For example, I bought a 458 Win Mag Whitworth in 2013 and didn't want to dork a new stock, so besides a new recoil pad (1" just like the original) I put 1" spacer on it to bright it to 14 5/8. And then used a ammo sleeve on the buttstock to hide the spacer.

You do need to be able to work the bolt when the rifle is shouldered.--so what ever LOP it takes.

I'm with Sean on this. Be able to work the bolt when the rifle is shouldered. Too many times I see hunters fire and bring the rifle off the shoulder to work the bolt, not that they have too but because they have developed that bad habit.

G I do not understand that you cannot reach bolt handle??? Shoot, finger removed from trigger and hand goes up to bolt handle. But here maybe the bolt handle must be repositioned. Yes, it has to stay on the shoulder.

Mike

GG, if your finger can reach the trigger, you hand can reach the bolt handle. If you shorten the lop, you may be hitting your face with the back of the bolt if you keep the stock shouldered.

G - Working the bolt while the rifle is actually shouldered, is un-necessary. Working the bolt effectively/cleanly is what matters most.

Guide a couple hundred rifle hunters then tell me how efficient most of them are at doing this, versus short stroking/jamming the gun, which happens all the time. Taking one second to cleanly work the bolt is best, if that's what you prefer/are comfortable with.

Don't over think it, its just shooting/hunting like you have done many times before.

Good luck on your buff hunt.

My two 375/404 have 13 1/4 and 13 1/5 pulls.

I don't notice any difference in using either.

quote:

Originally posted by twoseventy:
GG, if your finger can reach the trigger, you hand can reach the bolt handle. If you shorten the lop, you may be hitting your face with the back of the bolt if you keep the stock shouldered.

With all due respect, this is precisely why I posted. I can reach the trigger comfortably but cannot reach the bolt handle with the gun to my shoulder.

I have not hunted DG before, so I do not believe I have any bad habits to unlearn -- except perhaps being impatient to get to Africa in the first place.

I am quite skilled with tactical rifles and handguns. Both require a different skill set but economy of motion is the basic key.

If I can reach the bolt handle I can learn to cycle it correctly. I do not, however, want to compromise the fit of the rifle. As in most gunsmithing, it is much easier to remove material than add it back on...

Hi gg,

What make of rifle do you have? Can you post pictures of the problem you are having? May help solve your problem.

quote:

Originally posted by impala#03:
Hi gg,

What make of rifle do you have? Can you post pictures of the problem you are having? May help solve your problem.

Away from home for the week. Will post when I get back home. Appreciate the suggestions.

With over 30 years of hunting in Africa, I have never had to cycle the bolt with the rifle on my shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
With over 30 years of hunting in Africa, I have never had to cycle the bolt with the rifle on my shoulder.

Exactly!! Or anywhere else for that matter.

I cannot imagine why you cannot work the bolt if you can reach the trigger

I have not hunted DG yet. The last 2 years I have been practicing with my 416 Rigby which I bought and my older Mauser 98 in 9.3X62.

As part of the practice I first made myself shooting sticks as that was going to be the critical platform for shooting. I also practiced shooting off hand. I must have fired 150 to 250 rounds in each rifle - often 20 to 30 rounds at one session of say 1 to 1.5 hours at the range.

I practiced all types of reloading - just careful single shots to rapid 5 shots as fast as I could reload from the shoulder. Finally I was confident of shooting 1.5 inch groups with measured shots off sticks at 50 meters & 3" groups off hand most times. Most times I can shoot the 416 Rigby rapid off hand at 25 meters into 3 or 4 inches. I can do that at 50 meters with the 9.3 Mauser. Yes I did pull the odd shot but I seem to be improving and getting more confident.

No actual hunting / game experience - but ready for any opportunity.

For me LOP seems to affect quick instinctive shooting and also sensitivity to recoil. Stock fit seems to be far more important to me - LOP is just one part of stock fit - IMHO.

Too much Hollywood style gun writing must have brought this up.

In fact, to hear all the complaints of how I shoot, one would never expect me to hit anything

Don't know about farm boys elsewhere, but in Australia we grow-up shooting all sorts of different rifles, and it doesn't take much to adjust to one. I can't imagine a useable, suitable rifle that I couldn't stroll out my front door and kill a buffalo with. The LOP on my rifles vary considerably, and they still work beautifully for me.

quote:

Don't know about farm boys elsewhere, but in Australia we grow-up shooting all sorts of different rifles, and it doesn't take much to adjust to one. I can't imagine a useable, suitable rifle that I couldn't stroll out my front door and kill a buffalo with. The LOP on my rifles vary considerably, and they still work beautifully for me.

I nearly always cycle the bolt with the rifle at my shoulder. Force of habit, I guess.

I also can't figure out how you can comfortably pull the trigger but not cycle the bolt with the rifle shouldered.

Any well designed bolt action rifle will place the bolt knob directly over and in line with the trigger.

It would think that the LOP may simply be too long for you - end of story - but you say that your grip and hand placement are fine.

Hard to figure.

Like Michael R I cannot visualize how this can possibly be an issue???

Here are some things to think about if you intend to operate the bolt of a DG rifle while it is seated in your shoulder:

1. If the rifle is a long action, such as a 458Lott, and you have a standard LOP stock, and you are over 5'10" you are going to hit yourself in the face when you operate the bolt. Depending upon the length of your neck, this may also happen with a standard length action such as the 458WM.

2. When shooting off sticks, if they are not tall enough or are set too wide you are going to cheat forward on your stock and again, you will have the possibility of striking yourself in the face while operating the bolt.

3. If you have hit yourself with the bolt a few times, you will have a tendency to "short stroke" the bolt, resulting in a jam of your rifle. This is not a good thing when in pursuit of DG.

I have a measured 15¼" LOP and set-up my DR this way. Most of my bolt rifles have a custom LOP of 14½"-15". I DO NOT work the bolt on my DG rifles from the shoulder.

The average height of an American male is approximately 5'9.2" and the average OEM stock on a Winchester Mdl 70 had a 13½" LOP in 1966. That grew to a 13¾" LOP by 2005. The cause for the increase in LOP was because the average American hunter had gotten taller over those 39 years. It is not height that actually dictates LOP however. It is arm length measured from the curled trigger finger to the inside of the elbow, just touching the bicep, with the arm bent. Some shooters 5'11" tall may have a LOP of 15" while someone 6'2" with short arms might have a LOP of 13.5".

Some of todays popular compact "short" rifles have stock LOP as short as 12.5" (Ruger M77CR & M77FR in .308). DG calibers require more weight and longer LOP to deal with the accompanied recoil.

Hope this helps.

Would be more concerned to have at least an inch between back of your thumb and your nose than a general lop measurement, maybe a little more for a heavy recoiling rifle. Felt recoil will be less with a stock that fits, I am sure some here can point you to info on good stock fit for heavy rifles. Proper fit first then figure out how to work the bolt effectively.

I agree with the post that says be concerned with hitting yourself in the nose with your thumb. I always ask are you only using your rifle in shirt sleeves or are you taking it to Alaska someday also. I have a 375 that has been used in Africa and Alaska both. I guarantee I had a couple more layers on in Alaska but everything worked fine. If it doesn't hit me in the nose, I can make do. In the morning in Africa you will have 1/2 inch thicker clothes than at 10:00 and then reversed by evening. To me too short is my only concern. I find I can shoot rifles from 13.5 to 14.5 without too much adjustment. The big kickers I prefer 14 inches.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I nearly always cycle the bolt with the rifle at my shoulder. Force of habit, I guess.

I also can't figure out how you can comfortably pull the trigger but not cycle the bolt with the rifle shouldered.

Any well designed bolt action rifle will place the bolt knob directly over and in line with the trigger.

It would think that the LOP may simply be too long for you - end of story - but you say that your grip and hand placement are fine.

Hard to figure.

I have arthritis is my right thumb, requiring a slightly tighter grasp to get good purchase on the bolt.

When I got home I measured the rifle and found its LOP exactly measured my own LOP.

I was also able to easily cycle the bolt -- I suspect my thumb had been a bit stiff and after living with it for so many years (old martial arts injury), I had forgotten the effect it had on my ability to grasp things.

As a partial solution (since I can't predict when it is going to be stiff and problematic) I have shortened the LOP by 1/2 inch.

Makes sense. I get it.

But it seems to me that you might want to try another method that doesn't involve the use of the fingers or thumb at all.

It's kind of hard to describe, but I do it all the time pretty much without thinking. Here goes:

I use the heel of my hand to smack the bolt up; then I pull the bolt back; then rotate the hand 180 degrees; then push the bolt forward; and then slam it down into battery.

This can be done smoothly and fast. Faster than any other way I have tried.

Sorry, to disagree with Saeed and Aaron, but I'm with Mike. After years of competition cycling the bolt on my shoulder, I do it when I'm hunting as well. Works for me.

Not uncommon for shooters not to be able to reach the bolt easily as you can stretch out your finger easily to reach the trigger but need to grab the bolt knob with the thumb and finger to control it well.
Being of shorter stature I find that most triggers and consequently bolt handles are too far forward of the grip and the trigger finger needs to be stretched to reach the trigger instead of approaching the trigger at near a right angle as it should.
Length of pull is really the sum of two measurements, one from the trigger to the grip, which depends on the size of your hand & finger length, and then from the grip to the butt plate.
With a stock correctly fitted to you will be able to reach the trigger and bolt with the rifle on your shoulder, with long bolt travel you may have to lift your head from the stock so you won't hit yourself when cycling the bolt.