The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Financier says game hunter swindled him out of $2M on ‘big’ kills: suitGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
Because hunting and individual hunter’s motivations cannot be first, how big is the animal, where can I get the biggest as in best. That mentality is not acceptable to folks. That is why I have been saying hunting marketing should focus on the net return to the area and game with specific dollar amounts stated, and not “We average 42 inch Buffalo.” | |||
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That's fine but I have never had a client ask or do expect to have one ask "Where can I hunt that will give back to the area and game the most". What you suggest should be the motivation for booking a hunt is a bi product of trophy hunting. You don't need to book anything specific for that to happen. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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And that is the problem. It is time to be better. Look at CM. They promote heavily based on area investment. The “industry” has got to change the direction of horse. The horse is individual hunters, and we are almost run off the cliff. You asked. I might be wrong. However, I doubt I am. The real question is, is it too late to turn the horse? | |||
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Mark, There is nothing about bashing SCI. SCI CREATED this! SCI CREATED these CRIMINALS! Without SCI's never ending encouragement for BIGGER IS BETTER. Creating exclusive CIRCLES where deranged IDIOTS. With no sense of hunting, character, or common sense, fight each to get in. I remember seeing farms in New Zealand GUARANTEEING you get a Number X or Number Y trophy in the SCI record book. How sick is that? Again, there is no SCI bashing here. Just stating FACTS about what SCI has created, and continues to support. Removing Angus's trophies just shows that they have absolutely no intentions of stopping this utterly objectionable trade. Stone has supplied dozens and dozens of exceptional animals to others. Some might have been ignorant of his actions, others, I guarantee you were forming a line to him, and are repeat customers. By the way, I don't pick AREAS to hunt. I pick PEOPLE to hunt with. I hunt for enjoyment. Not for trophies. | |||
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100% on the people comment- I couldn't agree more! | |||
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Let me pose a question. Boone & Crockett maintains a record book. Is that a problem? Is the record book the problem or are people the problem? Perhaps the awards are the problem rather than the record book. To be clear , I am not a record book guy. | |||
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No. Nor does RW. SCI is the ONLY club that I am aware of that has made BIGGER IS BETTER as the holly grail of hunting. In numerous books I have read before, where past members, and OFFICIALS, of SCI have broken laws to get what they want. Nothing stands in the way of making sure MINE is bigger than YOURS! That is the SCI mantra. We have complained, and complained and complained. No one ever listens. SCI reminds me of an old beer advert. Where a man was walking along a pristine lake, saying “We search the world over. For the purist water. To bring XYZ beer” At the same time you see a man across the lake pissing in it! That perfectly describes SCI and their claim FIRST FOR HUNTERS! | |||
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I agree that hunting shouldn’t be a competition. But to the person who is all about competition, any record book will be used as such. I don’t really think SCI is any worse than any other book from that point. Most of the circle-jerk awards from SCI are for number of species- if you read how to get them, they don’t even have to be of record book status. I don’t really see how encouraging folks to hunt in different areas is “bad” in and of itself. As to the size awards, that is personal subjective. The ones they publish in their awards issue are highly political (I know, as I have shot bigger examples and some named guy got an award for a smaller animal… so those top animal awards are really a good ol boys club.) SCI makes no bones about the purpose of the awards being to fund their activities. Personally, if I have to buy an award, it isn’t an award. I don’t really buy the SCI bad, cause the problems stuff. But I agree the 0.1% that are driven to “prove” their superiority are a problem for the sport. Heck, look at golf. With handicaps everyone has a chance to win any given day, and lots of people pay big $$$ to play in pro-am tourneys. Same underlying societal issue. Yes, SCI has caused some issues by interjecting money in a way that allows the competitive to use the system as a way to “keep score” but it’s not SCI that’s the problem, it the folks involved in doing the win at all costs mentality that are the problem. Saeed, you are a refreshing example. You obviously have the money that you could buy the #1 Cape buffalo from a breeding farm if you wanted to, but you have no interest in it, but rather are the rare ultra rich guy who does things because you enjoy it, and to hell with what the popular crowd thinks. I think your attitude towards SCI is a little over simplistic, but we have all seen abuses. | |||
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When I was on the BOD of the Phoenix Chapter, we had a member from Tucson who was in charge of the record book for National. His name was Doug Luger. From the information he gave me/us, record book was self funded. It received 100% of its funding from record book entries and sales. He was pretty pushy about wanting entries. The Chapter came to my home for one of their Trophy Room Tours and he was there. He was like a guy selling time shares trying to get me to measure/enter a bunch of stuff. There will always be thieves. I was talking to a friend about the similarities in international hunting and high performance powerboats. Both demographics are highly subject to fraudulent operators. We figured they are both kind of "ego-driven sports" or hobbies and guys who want their names in books or well known in their circles, can and will "bend" the laws. Or at least the rules. Engine builders and (some) PH's are pretty similar. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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For those who dont know, well before SCI there was Rowland Ward. He was a taxidermist in England who started keeping records in those early days of hunting. I dont know if there was a fee to enter a trophy in Rowland Ward, but even then I think competition was fierce, albeit without the influence of social media, email etc! But in those days too there was lots of fierce competition not only for hunting but pretty much in everything like flying, sailing, exploring etc etc. as the world was far less explored. So competition and mine is bigger than yours is not a new phenomenon! I dont think its the client or SCI to be blamed here. If the story is factually correct, its an outfitter who is fudging a client's scores in order to get a clients business! And that too is not new! | |||
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Probably a tad off-subject, nonetheless.... Records have been around for ages, and I doubt it's going anywhere soon. So much is said of SCI and their books, but in my opinion it's not the records that are creating the debates, but more so the multitude of awards which instil a sense of "go bigger and get certificates for the wall" Maybe if the awards were completely done away with (oops, I'm advocating the removal on an income stream) then perhaps the book would be seen from the point it was originally designed? | |||
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The awards are based upon species and number of species as I understand it. Not size. I tend to blame the individuals for bad behavior. Some people are wired to need to be at the top. Let’s all wait to form an opinion . Remember, a plaintiff’s best day in court is when they file before there is any answer. Perhaps one or the other is a scum bag. Perhaps both. It seems that many are believing the allegations without any confirmation. Truthful or not , it seems that suing Stone for 100% of the amount spent is absurd. Does that tell us anything? | |||
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Larry, I have absolutely, positively, no doubt that both these idiots are crooks. And frankly, they deserve each other. Angus has many “trophies” from Stone! He has been his client for many years! Stone, I KNOW FOR ABSOLUTELY CERTAINTY! Has been involved in all sorts of crooked capture, keeping, and delivering animals to a whole bunch of SCI recipients! If you have looked at his site a few years ago, you would have been SHOCKED! No one. NO ONE! Can provides all these very high scoring animals in fair chase! May be you should look at the SCI book and see how many animals he has there. | |||
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It is sad that it seems in all sports there seems to be abusers and grandstanders!! It tarnishes all. I have been thinking about what Larry is saying and I have to agree. Other than rank in the Record Book, the only place you see Bronze, Silver or Gold awards in SCI is on the individual awards plaques that hunters get for their trophy entry and is only seen as they display in their home, trophy room or office. TOP 10, and even TOP 20 entries must be certified by a second Master Measurer... so rubber tape measures are found out before any awards are given.... but if not TOP 10/20... can stand in the Record Books.... UNTIL CHALLENGED!! Yes, some do get challenged and if found "in error" they are corrected... or if flagrant, I know of a case in Oregon, where ALL trophies were removed for that hunter, and the member expelled permanently!! I must say that the various circles, rings and pinnacles are really recognition of hunts all over the world of many unique species that might be either unknown, unmanaged, or become extinct if it weren't for hunters spending huge amounts in these remote and often forgotten places on the planet where governments don't have wildlife management expertise or funding!! It is a simple fact that most of us don't have the time, financial resources during our careers, and often the physical stamina to make these exotic hunts. I certainly don't!! Those that do should be celebrated for their pursuits and contributions to an otherwise forgotten land and species!! The few people, who I personally know, are quiet, professionals and very humble people. They often open their trophy rooms to many who would never see, let alone ever hear about, and be able to touch some of these species they have collected. Frankly, I admire these people and appreciate their contributions to wildlife management for future generations to enjoy. Surely the ANTIS, and tree huggers DON'T PUT THEIR MONEY ON THE GROUND LIKE HUNTERS DO!!.... they spend their money on TV ads, and litigation.... that can harm wildlife!! Hunters around the world have failed to trumpet our contributions on the ground, and we are WAY BEHIND THE 8 BALL IN DOING THIS. We need to be trumpeting our contributions in far away lands and show the benefits of our "hunting contributions!!" Until we do, we are fighting a losing battle.... and we should NOT be condemning our own, and the quiet contributions they make, FOR OUR FUTURE!! SCI, CONKLIN, and others are providing a small token to these fortunate few that can hunt these sacred lands... again as Larry said, SIZE DOESN'T COUNT HERE!!.... these unique and remote species from many far away lands do!! I will never hunt those lands, but I do admire those that can and do!!.... and further, really look on those abusers and grandstanders with disdane.....they usually get theirs in the end!!... as those we are presently!! They tarnish our already tenuous reputation!! Let's band together to get our hunting, trapping, fishing, and industry associations to start broadcasting our successes and contributions world wide, and harshly admonish any that tarnish our reputation.... it is impossible to refute or admonish our incredible successes!!.... nay sayers don't have a success story to stand on!! We can win if we play the cards right.... and not fight with each other among ourselves!!.... LET'S GET GOING, AND CAUSE OUR VARIOUS ASSOCIATIONS TO TOOT OUR HORN!! CheerZ, 470EDDY | |||
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You are correct Steve. I am not for or against either party here in this matter . I am against canned hunting, illegal wildlife movement, etc. . From what I am being told, Mr. Murray is not being 100% candid or for that matter truthful. I will let the details come out later. He filed the lawsuit in an absolutely improper venue. Think about it . An Australian sues a South Africa in New York City. Hmmm We may well come up with a plan to make us look better . It might take a little while given some unfortunate circumstances. | |||
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That is the whole point my friend. Canned hunting, Stone is an expert at it. Illegal movement of wildlife for the sole purpose of it being killed as grand trophies, Stone is a master at it! Angus is just one of the many happy clients Stone has supplied. Look at the SCI record book. See how many top trophies he has provided. You and me both know big trophies don’t grow on trees. Stone seems to acquire them at will! | |||
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I have little doubt you are correct. | |||
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Did you know that if you sue in South Africa, you have to put up the legal fees for the defendant in a bond... and if you lose, you pay BOTH LAWYERS FEES!! Did you know that the US is the only country in the world where lawyers can share in the settlement booth too... ie contingency fees if you win??!! Hummmmm!! 470EDDY | |||
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I have always said, you can sue anyone you wish, for anything. But if you lose, you pay all legal fees, and what amount you claimed originally to the person you sued! If it is for a crime, the loser gets the jail time! And any lawyer, who consistently sues for pity reasons and loses, gets disbarred!  | |||
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You realize the contingency fees keeps lawyers from filing cases. You have to win to get paid. | |||
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To Saeed's points, I totally agree!! Lawyers and Insurance companies have a choke hold on the US economy, and the Government!!... look at the mess in Congress..... this really needs to change...but heaven help us with the strength of the Trial Lawyers Association!! Back in the 80s, or 90s when the fancy 75 floor Columbia Tower building was built in Seattle, it was said: "there are more Lawyers in the Colunbia Tower Building than in ALL OF JAPAN!!".... and this prestigious space is EXPENSIVE... and goes right into your legal fees!!.... the old "Look Successful, You Are Successful thing!!" I cannot imagine what standing our subject case has in US LAW??.... maybe some poor booking agent with a US Contract was in the middle??... or one of the parties has a US based company??.... Katy bar the door!! LHeym comment- I disagree!! In a Contingency engagement there are ALWAYS up front fees to get the ball rolling and payments made for fees and expenses.... Yes, to some degree, a good lawyer will pass on a risky outcome, but I see it as a great incentive in pursuit of "The Big Payday!!" Frankly, many plaintiffs could NOT afford the legal fees in many situations, accidents, medical malpractice, on and on.... and Lawyers seek these cases to score the Big Home Runs!! Does any Attorney deserve to share in the harm/outcome to/of others?? Not in any other country in the World... but in the ol litigious USofA!! I fear for all parties in this case, we are not seeing all of the facts or issues. The scary part is, we as hunters are likely to get flash burns from actions like this.... the sensations will be picked up in the media and hunters will get painted with the ugly brush!! 470EDDY | |||
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A 1/3 of Zero is Zero. | |||
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. . . want to cut down on frivolous litigation, go to a loser pays (the so-called "English Rule") system. Mike | |||
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Sure, bag on lawyers until you need one. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Mike- most US states (incl Ga) already have loser pays. See OCGA 9-11-68. In fact, our system is better (ie., has more teeth) that the British system. In fact, it’s so effective, insurance companies are trying to weaken it because it forces them to pay claims where liability is clear and damages are high (in other words, claims they’d rather sit on and collect interest on their “float”). | |||
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BEST NEWS I have heard in a long, long time in the Legal World!! I hope is SPREADS... certainly not to the West Coast yet!! Believe it or not, out here.... it is HARD TO FIND A GOOD Lawyer when you do need one...!! 470EDDY | |||
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I have been giving some thought to the various comments about SCI and the Top 10 pursuits of the guy involved in this thread... thinking that there are far, far more organizations who track and reward hunters successes as well as hunts in so many far away lands!! I just received Ken Wilson's Newsletter that surrounds a well known Safari, but better known Mountain and Sheep hunter Rex Baker... this newsletter gave a good rundown of the various organizations: Grand Slams of North American Wild Sheep Ovis World Slams Capra World Slams It takes 12 different species of wild goat/ibex to achieve a single World Slam. The Weatherby Award Awarded once per year by the Weatherby Foundation and considered to be the Oscar for international hunting. The World Hunting and Conservation Award Awarded by SCI as their highest achievement in the World Hunting Awards Program. The OVIS Awarded by Grand Slam Club/Ovis to recognize the greatest mountain hunters and conservationists in the world. The Pantheon Award The "best of the best world class big game hunters" as recognized by both GSCO and SCI. The Conklin Award Carlo Caldesi Award And Finally, a New Award- Rex Baker Super 40 Recently created by GSCO and named after Rex Baker. This award requires the taking of the North American 29 (as recognized by GSCO) plus 11 additional North American species from a list of 15 such as Glacier Bear, Wolverine, Wolf, Lynx, Alligator, Walrus, Red Brocket, Gray Brown Brocket, and Aoudad. WOW!! That is a pretty impressive list of Organizations that track Hunters adventures!! Most of these organizations have really harsh rules to abide by and one would hope that honesty and fairness would lead the pack to success and admiration.... we all know that LADY LUCK plays a BIG Part in our successes!! Not the foul play that we seem to be present in this thread... sadly it only takes one bad apple to spoil the Cider!! CheerZ, 470EDDY | |||
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Let's face it, these awards are and always have been sponsored by a bunch of rich guys who have the same hobby, i.e., hunting. They formed clubs that promote that hobby, and that's all well and good. Where things went sideways is when the rich guys, who are and were naturally competitive, decided that promotion wasn't enough. They needed competition. They also needed special recognition for "winning" the competition. To me, the awards given by these clubs are like the "Oscars" given by the grandiosely named "Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences." It would be better named the "Mutual Admiration Society of Movie Actors." Who cares who gets an undeserved token given to him by his fellow narcissists? As far as I am concerned, all of these awards are silly and mean nothing. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Well, I think one has to understand the awards . They are NOT for large specimens. They are for NUMBER of specimens. Personally, I do not think the awards are a competition . They feed ego. I don’t like the awards. I totally get the fundraising aspect of the awards. SCI needs money. This is a way to get money. On the other hand, what kind of award is it if one pays for it themselves? The opposition pounds us over the awards. The longer I think about it , I wonder if the awards/record book are the problem or are the people the problem? Plenty of sports have record books. SCI and some fishing records are the only place I hear of the problems. I entered things from my first two safaris . We were on our third having lunch one day. Probably 25 years ago. A helicopter flies in carrying a well know guy. He proceeds to shoot a large something or another. He takes the pics and was gone in 15 minutes. All for the record book. He is now dead. This behavior is despicable. Totally unacceptable. I never entered another animal after that . Whose fault is that? Is it SCI or was it the guy who pulled the trigger? I struggle with that . I shot a massive banteng a few years back. At the time , it had a chance to be the new #1. The outfitter wants me to enter it. I get why. Yet, I struggle with doing so. To date, I have not done so. | |||
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It is to you and me. And most hunters. But, for the selfish few, like Angus and Jason here, it is the best could have happened to them! | |||
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I AGREE LARRY!! BUT, ON THE BANTANG YOU WERE VERY, VERY LUCKY!! YOU EARNED IT, SO DID THE OUTFITTER.... DO IT, YOU BOTH DESERVE RECOGNITION!! In my hunting career of nearly 40 years, I have been lucky to collect a #3 Cape Buffalo, and my last trophy a #16, or "Top 20" Aoudad. It was all luck and a passing entry in the Book!! My taxidermist was so envious and jealous that he rescored it OUT OF TOP TEN!!... So you see, it's PEOPLE who spoil the broth!! (He lost all of my future business too!!) CheerZ, 470EDDY | |||
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I don’t a common reedbuck in Zimbabwe years ago. 15 minutes out of camp. He was jumping in long grass and a lucky shot broke his neck. My PH, who was an official measurer, said it is the new number one. Never bothered to enter it, or anything else I have ever shot. | |||
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I totally get that Saeed. | |||
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Congratulations Saeed!! Another Lucky Day to be remembered forever!! At least we should see some photos of that great trophy in your fantastic photo expose' you have so generously shared with us!! Due to the taxidermist shenanigans my #3 Cape Buffalo never was recorded as such in the Record Book.... but still today it is still the pinnacle of my African hunting experiences.... along with my hard earned "flying Lion" that almost got me... on the same safari!! As vivid today as it was in 1984!! Both are pictured in the PH's book of his hunting career and I don't need any more accolades... just great memories!! Remember, however, there is some scientific benefit of the Record Books to wildlife scientists to determine the range of various species, and of course, if measurements are accurate, to be able to determine size and maybe age by measurements?? It is to bad when an ego maniac has to display his bravado by "rubber tapes"... and throwing in a monkey wrench in all of it for the rest of us!!.... as I mentioned earlier, the Record Book Keepees/police, do maintain a vigil for errant abuse... and one Portland hunter's errant self measurements were completely eliminated.... and he became Personna Non Grata.... and should have!!... now a tarnished guy forever!! Was it worth it?? 470EDDY | |||
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Quantity of animals taken is just as much a competitive measure as individual animal size. Who cares? To me, hunting is a personal thing between me and the animals I hunt. Turning hunting into a public competition is to misunderstand and degrade it on a fundamental level. (I feel the same way about fishing “contests.”) I say this as a life member of organizations that promote hunting, including the NRA and SCI. I am all for promotion and preservation of our hunting heritage. I’m also in favor of record books, if they are honestly kept, since they improve our knowledge of the animals we hunt. What record books don’t tell us is anything about the hunters who took the animals that are entered. But lawsuits like this one tell us a lot. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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 The above is from the SCI manual on measuring trophies . See number 4. If the rules were followed , Mr. Murray’s allegations seem to be questionable if not impossible. | |||
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And the plot thickens. First of all does SCI allow captured animals to be scored? We have seen Stone buying captured animals, he transports them somewhere else, he gets his clients to fly over on short notice and kill them. He gets someone to score them, and he enters them in the book for his clients, guided by him?? If this is what happens, what about all the TOP 10 and TOP 20 records he has sold to others. How many of his clients were aware that these animals were captured - actually, any of them he thinks other wise must have been turning a blind eye! | |||
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No idea about SCI or the clients . Stone’s reputation as a canned hunt guy is not a big secret . | |||
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I wish someone would access the latest SCI RECORD BOOK and see the animals entered by Jason Stone, and who shot them. Did someone mention that SCI was removing the animals Murray entered? If so, what happens to all the other animals entered by Stone. Now that we have no doubt whatsoever ever what he has been doing all along! | |||
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In the lawsuit documents, they state that Murray asked SCI to remove his entries. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Financier says game hunter swindled him out of $2M on ‘big’ kills: suit
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