Not a gun case, but...

A fellow whom I know had one of the expensive Haliburton aluminium suitcases with the built in lock. About a year ago he checked the suitcase, locked, for a flight back to the U.S. on a U.S. airline. When he picked up the suitcase at his destination he found a note inside saying it had been opened for security inspection. Yeah, they opened it- with a crowbar! The latching mechanism was destroyed and the body of the suitcase mangled so badly that he threw it away. The suitcase had been "closed" with tape after the inspection but was so badly bent that several small items (not worth stealing) had fallen out along the way. He had checked in a couple of hours early so there was plenty of time to page him to open the suitcase, but no one bothered.

Is it really that difficult to add an aftermarket hasp and lock to a TuffPak?

NitroX,

I had the lock cropped of my bag as I transited through Istanbul a few years back. There was no note from security saying it was them, but as no valubles were stolen and the bag was re packed very neatly I can only assume that it was searched by Security. A cell phone number on a sticker seems like a good idea and might be useful on all your luggage should it go a stray.

Harry,

No need to have your feathers ruffled by all this, as Eric says, any slight crititism of the product is purely contructive. Traveling by air is never going to get easier and I think half of the problems people suffer is at the hands of officials who make or break the rules as they go along.

On a different note, do you know if Tuffpak intend bringing out a smaller version for the traveller with a single rifle?

Regards,

Pete

Harry,

I purchased my TuffPak pre-911 and I have used it (without the case being cut open so far). I purchased it direct from the manufacturer for which I am thankful as I prefer to deal with sales personnel who are not belligerent.

Rather than getting your feathers ruffled, you may want to spend your effort working with the manufacturer to eliminate the product's weakness. I do like the product, but I dislike the lock. And as for selling it to you at half price, I would probably either put it on ebay or toss it in the campfire instead.

My cell phone only works within the USA and Canada. Probably Mexico too but I don't travel there much. It will not work outside of North America. So it's a functional plan when you travel within the service area of the phone, but outside that area it may as well be a smoke signal.

I fly many times a week across the USA. There are a number of airports that also have no service while in the terminal. I have found that I may need to stand against a window or someplace the signal likes to maintain service. If I'm just sitting at the gate I don't always have functional service in every airport. Someday the cell phone companies will get it together and actually find a way to make them work but for now, at least for me,... the cell phone is not a highly dependable tool in general.

Since I have also had a padlock cut and removed from my Pelican suit case and from my ICC gun case. I feel padlocks are the prudent choice. In both cases the spare locks inside the cases were used to re-secure the contents by TSA. TSA is not the only organisation with the right to remove a lock. Once you leave the USA all bets are off as to what will happen with locked luggage.

It's a shame we have to argue this and debate this among ourselves this way. I get the feeling of stress and a bit or anger in some posts. We are fighting a terrorist war now. Each and every one of us is in this battel. I have no quarrel with TSA or any security who wants to open my bags and check them out. I actually welcome them to cut my locks off if it gets the job done properly to keep us safe. It's cheap and easy for me to supply a couple 3 dollar pad locks for back-up for spares when this happens.

To me it's like getting checked while hunting for my license and tags. It shows me that my fees are paying for the people to do the job we pay them for. If TSA or any other security orginsation feels the need to check out my stuff,..... then I say have at it. Just use the spares enclosed to seal it back up. Thanks for the thankless effort and keep up the good work!

.

I have had numerous packages and luggage opened and inspected by both US Customs and TSA, with padlocks cut off or seals and tape cut through, on returns to the USA. No guncase has ever been bothered after being inspected and properly tagged, however. I use a nylon TyWrap for securing zippers on bags rather than cheap padlocks. Put some extras in a ziplock bag with a note to replace, and they always have. I do the same with an extra padlock for my aluminum guncases.

Coming in from Mexico, there was even a hand written "Thank You" on a business card, in the inside of the re-sealed bag. On the occassion where a carton has been opened, they have properly secured it again with the fluorescent green US Customs tape to let you know what agency was responsible.

The only problem I have watched with the Tuff-Packs was when people had to totally remove their belongings in Atlanta for law enforcement check of firearms. Ended up with a lot of stuff scattered out on the table!

Blank,

I think those that purchased the Tuffsak have solved the problem of having to pull everything out for show and tell at check points. You put the firearms in the soft cases inside the nylon Tuffsak and then place all the other items between the sak and the Tuffpak. (Or you can do the reverse) This allows you to take the firearms out by un-doing the toggle on top, un-zipping the soft gun case just a bit and pulling the firearm out enough to satisfy the inspector it is empty etc. With the sak acting as a slick wall between firearms and rest of items you should be able to get the firearms back inside with ease and not have to take other items out. Least that is the way it has worked for me and I traveled before we came up with the sak and after. After (with the sak) is easier for sure. The sak is most useful for another reason. If you get someplace where you can not take a hard case in the plane (Super Cub in AK or on my first safari in TZ) then you just leave the hard case in a safe spot and take the sak with all your gear inside.

The factory has read all your concerns (I have said this in previous post)and is taking them into consideration. If they or you come up with a workable solution to the supposed problem then it will be done. Until then we will just keep swimming against 500 grains mighty current! The River of Doom!



Erik..as to an apology...not too damn likely as I did not take 500 grains continued little notes of doom and gloom and "you better do this or else" as constructive. Maybe as Geo. Kennady said to Paul Neuman in Cool Hand Luke..."what we have here is a failure to communicate!"

Others that have written me off line have offered constuctive ideas without the doom and gloom.

It would seem to me that IF ones lock was destroyed you could go the the hardware store get an everyday hasp, a drill and a pop rivet gun and be back in action soon. Now...that is not something we think would make the case real attractive nor help with the water resistance at the moment but it should be doable if you wish to your own case. Maybe as another poster said ...use those funky cable locks that some gun manuf. are sending out these days inside new gun boxes. Drill two holes and use that cable and lock. Anything you do should work as the return on the top is so long that once you have one side fully down and secure you can not fudge the other side up over the top of the case.



To try and answer about the single gun case. I have no idea as I am not the manuf. of this case but just an individual dealer and user.

This case evolved from the movie and tv industry as I understand it. For many years earlier much of the lighting and camera tripod equipment was / is shipped around the world in the other Tuffpaks. I was told that years ago someone like Bob Peterson of Gun & Ammo fame ( maybe somebody else well known like him) passed by the Tuffpak booth and commented how good a gun case that would make...as they say...the rest is history. So...from tripods and light stands to a way to transport firearms and hunting equipment.



I myself see no use for this case for the average hunter driving to the deer lease. To me this case is for the sportsman that has to do lots of flying or long distance travel / shipping overland. If you are going on that kind of a trip it would seem you would want the room this case has (or the new gun /bow case we sell) to put just what most of you do...all your other gear inside so you won't require more bags.

I would bet that if the manuf. in CA,who is a very nice guy, could be shown that a single or smaller case is needed then he would most likely spend to bucks to make the mold. Up to now everyone has wanted larger dia. along with a bit more lenght and thus the bow /gun case. Our idea of smaller was to make the takedown case which also sells and works well.

I don't know how all this became bold type..what was to be bold was the part saying "the factory has read all your concerns."

Having, in my lifetime, shoved and toted enough tripod filled tuffPaks under the bellies of hundreds of remote trucks, I know they can stand the punishment. After a tough day of football/basketball/baseball/ remote crews slam the tuffpaks with the best airport gorillas around.

they hold up. You need to pad your rifles inside as others have stated!



The only thing tougher than a tuffPak is an Anvil case. It weighs 10-20 times what the tuffpack weighs.



Tuffpaks are not a perfect product. I know very few things if any, that are perfect. I do think they are very good!

Just my opine.

Harry, It looks to me like you could make it a simple deal to agree to replace the top piece of the tuffpak for anyone that had the rare misfortune that TSA destroyed the lid, for cost and shipping or just above. That would be a way to insure that your product would be viable long term and great piece of customer friendly PR. Cost on that can't piece be huge. What do you think? "D"

D Hunter,
Thanks for your suggestion.
While I am not the manufacture and can not speak for him I do know him to be a very fair individual. I would bet he would do his best to make things right with any Tuffpak owner that gets their top torn up due to some screwball in transit inspection.
If in fact it is just the lock and the top is not somehow broken I see no reason why the factory could not send you a lock and you replace the damaged with the new. I did have one lock that just went stupid and would not open like it should each time so the factory shipped me a complete new lock and my son and I changed it out in a matter of minutes.

So if they need to open a Tuffpak and "drill out the lock".

Would they drill out the metal lock or cut the plastic around it?

If the lock is drilled out, why not have a replacement one inside?

Harry: Thanks for the insight. The people I saw obviously didn't have the Tuff Sack. That sounds like the easy fix.

Nitro X,
Asking how someone is going to get into a Tuffpak is kinda like asking me how I might have my next car wreck....beat heck out of me. Nothing says you could not purchase another lock and have it inside. I really think this thread has gotten way out of shape. I just don't see this happening but again...If I was a thief I would just saw the case into once I got it off premises. If some "inspector" is going to tear into it...I have no idea how they would go about it.
The material of the case is very durable and will flex but not tear (easily) and if you beat on the lock to punch it inside the case will flex and help defeat the blows to the lock but...somebody will get into anything is they are hell bound and determined enough. If you look the lock is just held to the case with pop rivets but the rivets are covered by the top so you are not going to drill them out (you can't see where they are to drill them out) and...for all I know the rivets would break first if you just kept pounding on the lock.
Seems it would just be simpler to just contact the owner and ask them to open the damn thing.
I give up on all the ifs and buts....guess I should start to worry if the primer will ignite and will the powder burn and will the bullet kill the buffalo if it hits and ....Whew! Reckon I just better go hide under the covers John. Aren't you scared now?

People with alarm systems and locks get their cars and homes broken into. Nothing is undefeatable! I like my Tuff-Pak and will stick with it. I've had too many aluminum, and plastic cases turn into crap with the abuse they've taken. My Tuff-Pak has some scratches and gouges, but no holes or dents, or torn of handles, or broken hinges, or........

This is a message sent me by the owner of Tuffpak.

Presto has a new series out , that is TSA friendly. these locks although combo have a key entry to be used only by TSA, The lock has a code number on it and TSA is or should be carrying matching keys. The owner does not get the keys when purchasing the lock. If a TSA agent open the lock a small red window appers indicating that the case was opened.

We will be carrying these locks, in the meantime type are avaiable at most luggage shops.

Well Rupert when you can get your house on the plane let me know! until then its not a "right" to fly on a plane with a gun. It's a privlidge. I suspect this is one of those things you and I will not see eye to eye on. I don't see it as even a slight imposition of my rights.

As I see it I would much prefer to have security open and look through any bag they wish if its suspected as a bomb or other problem causing device. I'm pretty confident that if it were an illegal search somebody before now would have had this in court and stopped it. Further imagine what could be checked in luggage if all security tools to inspect luggage were removed from TSA. Imagine for just a moment what kind of catastophe would occur in the skys over America!

I fly commercial aircraft just about every week and the weeks I do it's 4-6 flights during that week. When you are at the mercy of security to inspect everything that will provide your safety then I suggest we give them the rights they need.

I have nothing to hide in my gun case/luggage/ carry on etc. The signs are posted clearly that once you enter beyond security they have the right to search you and detain you. The same with your luggage. If those rules don't work for some folks there is always the highway where you can drive in your own car!

As far as the keys that will open locks on the Tuff pack. This is the right direction and will likely solve the problems as this system becomes more well known. These same locks have been for sale now about a year with the master keys "in theory" given to the TSA personal. I have questioned a number of TSA agents about this new lock system and not a single one of them had the keys needed to open such a lock. They also thought the idea was good in theory but unrealistic in practice. The comments stated were that the keys would be copied and available to the general public for anyone wanting them long before any TSA agents were issued them. I would have to agree after seeing how long it took for other agencys to get the special tools needed for law enforcement.

One TSA guy said he would check Ebay for the keys because he would probably find on on Ebay before he was issued one from TSA.

Pad lockable tabs are the least expensive and surest solution. I would much prefer to lose a 5 dollar lock then to have ruined a 300 dollar case. More importantly the trip of a lifetime ruined when your luggage was detained because it could not be opened or the owner located in time to make the flight.

You are right, this is one of the areas where we will agree to disagree. I see TSA, a US Govt agency, violating the rights I believe are guaranteed to me by the Constitution. FWIW, in the days betwixt the Towers, the Pentagon, and the Flight in the Field, when the airlines did the mandated security check, I saw it as equally irksome. The difference was that it was the airlines doing the checking. It was their airline and so it was a 'privelge.' The Bill of Rights is silent on what a private corporation might or might not do. The Bill of Rights is not silent on what the govt might do.

And I would dearly love to take my car on my trips (I fly airlines as much as you do), but I live in a place that is not connected to anywhere else by roadway. I have no choice but to take the airlines.

We have made progress in this thread, as Harry originally denied that there was a problem with the TuffPak locks, but he now acknowledges the problem and notes that TuffPak is offering a half-hearted solution. When TuffPaks are coverted over to use a padlock, that will be the final solution. I am looking forward to it happening.



[Note: This stuff about water resistance is B.S. If you want a floating waterproof case, get a Pelican.]



Also, there is a pretty good price on Tuffpaks ($279 compared to $325 regular) at Midsouth: http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/search.asp?search=tuffpak&submit=Find+it%21&typ=All&mfg=Any&dept=Any

JJHACK,

I am with you on this issue, I fly as often as you folks and I have no problem with my things being checked. I have nothing to hide whatsoever when I fly so I have no concerns. Flying is your choice so if you choose to fly you also agree to the rules.

I want the the guy on my plane that chose to try and bring an explosive device on the plane caught.

Doug

500 Grains,

I never denied anything. There is nothing to deny. There is nothing broke on Tuffpak. There is just a feature it has (now that you have a burr up your butt) you don't like. You like it even less now because you are in a pissing contest with me. I have said in many postings that Tuffpak is listening to peoples concerns and evidently the owner of the company is trying to come up with a way to satisfy all concerns. The Presto locks (your idea of a half hearted fix)is just an immediate and obvious way to solve your problem. At no time was a comment made that said the owner of Tuffpak was not looking into other avenues.

Evidently you can read but not comprehend.

At no time did I claim Tuffpak water proof but I did say water resistant. That it is. That I still stand by. Do you comprehend the difference between resistant and proof? No where can you find where I wrote one would float. Maybe a Seal or one of those waterproof bags might be a real deal just in case (pardon the pun) your case did get dunked in the drink. Mine has already withstood some pretty good rains while riding in the back of a pickup. Waterproof it is not!

While others have made positive suggestions all you have been able to do so far is and bitch and preach your doom and gloom. Oh, did I mention ruffle my feathers?

As to Midsouth's price...they can price anything they want at any price but the questions are...do they have it in inventory, can they deliver it and can I match or beat the price?

Then the next question is...do you want to buy it from them or some old fart like me that will stand toe to toe with anyone? Forget the last question...we know your answer already but..you may not be a majority. I hope not.

Have a nice day!

With all of this talk about Tuffpak, I had to go out and inspect mine (which I purchased from Harry - a real good guy). All I can say is "thank you" for all that have made this a issue, legitimate or not.



The reason I am grateful is because my Tuffpak is still covered with the African dust. When I pulled the top off, the smell that came out was the aroma of the laundry detergent that the women used to wash my clothes. This brought back several positive emotional feelings that pictures don't always accomplish.



Have you hugged your Tuffpak today?

Another little tip.



I earlier suggested putting your mobile phone number on the label tag so if they want to open it they can phone you (or page you of course). Some guys said their phone doesn't work almost everywhere. Another little tip is to always record all your flight numbers, dates, destnations etc on theluggage tag. Makes it real easy for them to find you.



I notice the Tuffpak has a window address slot right next to the lock. I never use these for my address as it is known for bad guys to look at these and burglar your house while you are away. I use a leather closed luggage tag which has to be undone to look at the address plus in any case I use a post office box. BUT what a great place to put your mobile/cell phone number AND flight details. Maybe even a request to get hold of you if they need the case opened.



One thing about these pissy little external padlocks. They are easy to remove and that is what is being promoted as a benefit here! Any fool can force them open or use a small bolt cutter. One reason Tuffpak has an internal lock.

500 Grains
You have a deal and better than that...I will buy the first round of drinks when we meet. Many thanks.

"One thing about these pissy little external padlocks. They are easy to remove and that is what is being promoted as a benefit here! Any fool can force them open or use a small bolt cutter. One reason Tuffpak has an internal lock."

That is funny! it reminds me of the guy selling home gun vaults telling the customer at the store how great their locking door was and how it would be near impossible to defeat the electronic combo lock. To hear him describe this gun vault you would think it was fort Knox itself!

I asked him how long he thought it would take to cut the side open with a sawz all and a new carbide blade? He replied that nobody breaks in through the side they fight with the lock and the door.

Yeah Right! If somebody wants in the gun case or the "gun vault" its not gonna be a problem. The vaults and locking gun cases are to prevent the tempting opportunity from the few possible thieves who might try something stupid. At a minimum to make the risk and time needed greater then the possible reward.

I won't argue the merrits of a plastic case with a propane torch to heat a hacksaw blade and slice through the container like butter, or the bolt cutters which will snip off a padlock with equal effort. We can't stop the determined fools who would try to rip us off. We can only make them struggle and fight through the process just long enough to make something else look a bit easier then our stuff does.

If this whole long thread generates some thoughts at what each of us can do to improve our gun safety and security then its been worth it. If folks keep arguing about these silly little details the folks needing the most help will get board with the non-sense and click out. Thats not good for them and ruins the beauty of education this site offers and especially what this thread has offered.

But yeah, not everyone is from the USA and has "special" weight limits on luggage available only to American passengers. Some of these metal gun cases I have seen weigh more than the total luggage weight limit available to someone from anywhere else in the world.

JJHACK

If you use the grey matter a little you may realise that once they have used a propane torch or sawn a gun case in half, some one maybe will notice that pilferage unlike snipping off a small dicky padlock which can probably be forced open with a pen anyway.

Also I guess propane torches and cylinders are lying around everywhere in the luggage loading areas of airports.

Maybe they carry them in along with the saws etc through security hidden in their sandwiches

Get real.

Yeah they hide through airport security about as well as the big bolt cutters needed to snip off the master locks.

I don't suppose there are any maintaince workers in the whole of the airport who might need common tools to work on typical airport or building maintainance issues. Probably never been a plumber go through security, nor a carpenter, electrician, computer programmer, Nobody to fix or repair anything. Not to mention how easy it would also be to wander back out with an uncased rifle or two!

Certainly the things inside secure area break and need repair. Does it seem that difficult a concept that there are countless ways to break into locked luggage? As far as the locks go I'm not sure what you have seen or used but I buy 4 master locks keyed alike at the local "ace" hardware here for 16 bucks that makes them 4 dollars each. They are rather stout and would require a lock cutting bolt cutter to remove them. Not a prybar, screwdriver, or a "pen" The ICC gun case which is the biggest manufacturer of airline approved double gun rifle cases(according to the web seach I just did) weighs 17.5 pounds. Is that too heavy?

That seems acceptable to me, with a padlock that requires a bolt cutter its also reasonably secure. To add to the ease of use when you open the case the guns don't have to be removed they can sit right there in plain sight with the serial numbers showing. Add a spare opened pad lock with a note for TSA inside and you're quite functional with your travel system for 2 rifles.

Having worked in the safari busines for many years now I have seen a lot of tuffpacks come and go through my camp. They store a lot of stuff and are also very secure. The issue with the whole of this thread is:

What happens if?

Padlocks beat integral locks hands down. No question asked nobody yet has made a point to suggest otherwise.

The topic has instead changed to plastic VS aluminum, waterproof capabilities, latch construction, cell phone use, special instruction tags, etc. etc. All of these other topics have legitimate pros and cons. However the padlocks still win every time for pure dependable and replaceble function.

Imagine a Tuff pack with a pad lock? Why would anyone use anything else? Except for the cost it's a near perfect case. The cost may be a bit too steep for some travellers when they can buy a two gun ICC case for 190.00 bucks. However there would not be any debate of the case with the best all around function, only the price would be an issue. We all know there are those that can buy a BMW and those that can buy a Toyota. So goes the debate

John,

Small dinky locks are not the issue.

The Pelican and Starlight cases allow the use of medium to large hardened Master locks. Those locks are tough to get through even with big bolt cutters.

Harry

Do you have any tuffpack's on the shelf?

I might pick one up next time I'm in Fort Worth

Since it's in Texas, prices should be 1$= 1 mexican peso, I guess

Cheers
/ JOHAN

Well, after reading all of these posts, most of which speak to the TuffPak's locking mechanism I can only add this: One critical reason I chose to purchase the Tuffpak (of course through Harry who by the way, matched Mid South's price) was because of its locking mechanism. We can go back and forth about it but I personally wanted a case that was more secure than anything else on the market. It is so secure that I am sure they will page me before they attempt to break into it. This past May, on my trip to Namibia ,I just had the TSA hand inspect it, mark it so and that was that. No problems coming or going. I like the Tuffpak- it does the job it is designed to do and does it better than any other gun storage/protective device on the market today. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it!

John

Johan,
You are welcome when you come to Texas to come get you a Tuffpak. We most likely will be giving them away to foreigners that day!
I saw this in a letter the famous cowboy and western painter Charles Russell wrote to a friend. It went like this,
"When you come to my lodge, the blanket will be spread, the pipe will be lit. This I have said."
How in hell could you say "Welcome" any better?

Gents,

Funny, I have never really considered cases/locks from a security point of view. Frankly, I don't know of any design which will stop any but the most casual of thieves.

Many cases I have looked at have either plastic or alloy "eyes" for the paddlock which would be far easier to cut than even a cheap padlock. Those with the built in locks generally look as if they could be jemmied with a large screwdriver. Heck at the end of the day, the thieves could probably steal the still locked case and open it some time later.

I hope this thread has not pissed Harry off too much, and in truth I have found it very informative...we can't cover or allow for every eventuality when we travel, but the more we think about and at least consider potential problems, the better armed we are if things do go wrong..

Regards,

Pete