HI,

I am trying to learn more about the 404 jeff. I have found limited data on the 404 jeff and it has been on the slow side. I would like to know if the 404 jeff will shoot as flat as the 375H+H with either a 300 or 350 grain bullet out of a 24 inch barrel,hot loads as I am looking for the flatest load.I also would like to know about the HV in the 404 jeff how fast can that be loaded t, as it does shoot fast with its design.I also have heard of the 404 inproved how much more fps will that do over the 404 jeff and I assume it must just have a sharper shoulder?, I do not know so I am looking for information on this as many of the people on this site know a hell of a lot more than I do, Thanks,Kev

Kev,

Have you checked the data on the GS website?

http://gscustom.co.za/

jim dodd

------------------
"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

Kev,
The .404 Jeff can be loaded up to the same velocities as the .416 Remington with a 400 gr. bullet. That is pretty flat and capable of dealing with anything alive in this geological period. Usually, one doesn't try to up the velocity with a lighter bullet as the sectional density isn't there and you will loose it quickly. What is the ultimate goal for the project? Are you just trying to see what you can get it to do or did you have a particular kind of hunting in mine?

Sarge

HI,

I just would like to see if it could shoot as flat as a 375 H+H.And it seems like it can, so when I retire in 5 years it may be the round I will take to Alaska with me,as it will kill big game as well if needed shoot out to a good range, Thanks for the information,I am glad that there are people out there that will help out.Also the fact that it can be carried in a lighter rifle than a 416, all day kind of thing. Thanks,Kev

Why do you think it will be lighter weight than a 416Rem?
You might wish to recheck your sources. These three all have very similar trajectory, and built up on a M70 size action the 375 will be about a pound less than either a 404 or 416, which will weigh almost identical amounts.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 05-17-2002).]

HI,

I think the 375H+H,416 and the 404 are great,I just wanted some information on reloading the 404J with a 350X or any other bullet that will shoot flat. I would like to get the fps out of a 24 inch barrel near 2750fps. As for the 404,it is my understanding that it requires a shorter action there for it will go in a lighter rifle than a 416. I an not trying to say one is better than the other I like them all, I was just trying to get more informed on the 404J, just trying to learn more about it.Thanks,Kev

Again, you might wish to check your sources. The 404 takes the same action size as the 416 Rem, which is to say a M70 or any other belted magnum sized action.
You might also give thought to owning a 375H&H or possibly the 375Wby in preference to the 416/404 unless you are planning an African hunt involving buffalo or an awful lot of brown bear hunting.

HI,

I am looking for reloading information for the 404j, with a 350 grain or another flat shooting bullet, I want the to shot as flat as possible with the 404jeff.Kev

The 404 or the 416 will shoot as flat as the 375 H&H...

I get about 2700 with a 350 and near 2800 with a 300 gr. Barnes X or better yet the GS HV bullets from GS Customs..the monolithics get you more SD and BC...My barrel is 27".

As for myself, I have found the 400 gr. bullets at 2400 to 2600 more than capable of shots to 300 yds. I hunt with a 2350 fps load with a 400 gr. soft and solid. that is all I ever needed in Africa in the last 40 years.

I would not go with the improved vesion as I like the sloping torpedo case that feeds like poop thru a goose...It is a dgr first and foremost, but it will shoot as flat as a 180 gr. 30-06 or 308 and that should surfice for anyone...

It's a better choice for big ungulates than the 375 on paper, but either is fine as an all around one gun safari caliber...if you can live with the trade offs, I can.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

HI,

Thanks MR. Atkinson for the information on the 404J, seems like a great round there should be more data on it,but there is little in reloading books or on line?.I am wondering how much fps would I loss with a 24 inch barrel, would 40fps be around the right number?.I know you use the 404j a lot in Africa and have hunted there for a lot of years so it sure works or you would have gotten rid of it.Thanks for your help,Kev

HI,

That is 40 fps per inch,I just forget to put that down.I also would like to know what other companies make 300 and 350 grain bullets for the 404J. I know BarnsX, GSCustom? and that is all I know.I also am just intersted to see the differentswith a 404 improved how much more would that get in fps over the 404 Jeff? just trying to learn more on the subject,not saying anything else. Thanks,Kev

kev,
most rifles with bore ratios and velocities similar to the 404 jeffery will vary about 25 fps per inch of barrel length on either side of the 24" mark ...
416 RULES!!!

------------------
RAB

I shoot both the 404 and 416 and I like them both, but my choice has always been the 404 Jefferys and I feel that an improved 404 is an oxymoron, no such critter...I load my standard 404 DOWN, NOT UP...

When push comes to shove and we put aside all our prejudices, there is absolutly no difference in the 404, 416 Rem, or 416 Rigby..and the improved variations are mostly hype and BS, to a brain washed public on velocity being all mighty..when in fact it is a minus in the big bores. It is not needed nor even desirable, for the use they are intended for, and that is big ungulates.

For anything less than these extra big critters I would much rather shoot lighter calibers like the 9.3, 338, 300 H&H....Why try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

HI,

Once again thank you MR. Atkinson for your help and your years of experience and knowledge. Thanks,Kev

Kev,
To clear up your apparant confusion on action size..The 375,416 Rem and 404 can all use a 375 lenth action..the 416 RIGBY is the one that requires a Mauser Mod 20 or its equivelent and that is one big puppy....So yes you can have a lighter more compact rifle with the first three and the 416 and 404 will be somewhat lighter, all things even in that you cut more metal out of the bore for the bigger diameters..but I wouldn't concern myself with this as weight is a plus, not a minus in these big guns up to a point.

I abandoned the Rigby over the size of the action and I like slim, trim rifles with no fat..

HI,

MR. Atkinson I have E-mailed MR. Ricks about the 404Jeff and putting it on the 375H+H action.I will went for his reply and then if he can do that with 100% reliablity,I think I will go with the 404 Jeff as I was thinking about the 404J or 416 Rigby.I do not want to start any huge debate on this just what I am looking for I think the 404J will do it, just a little lighter rifle not much to notice,but just enough for me.I still really like the bullet selection of the 416 so many,I hope there will be more 404J bullets down the road,hope MR. Ricks will come through for me. Thanks,Kev

HI,

One more thing MR. Atkinson and then I will not be a pain in the back side for a few hours. I will go with a 25 inch barrel,would I be able to get 2700-2750fps with a 350 grain in the 404J and I hope that will not be so hot that it would cause any extraction problems? what do you SIR. think of porting VS muzzle brakes is one better than the other? Sorry I am picking your brain so much,Kev

Kev,

Perhaps this will be off assistance to you:

416 Rigby Vs 404 Jeffrey

If you are happy with the CZ 550 rifle, then you just buy one in 416 Rigby. Simple. If you don't like the CZ, then to do the 416 Rigby will be big dollars and then the 404 Jeffrey is the caliber.

404 Jeffrey Velocities

The case is slightly bigger than the 416 Remington and of course has a slightly bigger bore. I would estimate with equal pressure and equally suitable powders that the 404 will have potentially about another 75 to 100 f/s over the 416 Remington.

Thus 2550 should be possible from a 24 inch barrel in the 404 with the 400 grin bullets.

Now most calibers when using bullets from the heaviest down to the mid range weight, will develop similar kinetic energy with each bullet, so on that basis the 404 should be able to get a velocity of:

400 grains 2550 f/s
350 grains 2725 f/s
325 grains 2820 f/s

If you want to go faster and be as practical as possible, then the 375 Rem Ultra necked up to 416 caliber is the way to go. This is basically the 416 Dakota but the 416 Ultra will offer much cheaper brass. The 416 Ultra can be made on any rifle that is suitable for the 404 Jeffrey.

As to muzzle brakes etc. there is quite a large thread on Big Bores forum at the moment on this subject. Some people like myself prefer the detachable brake. Others prefer some integral porting system. Both sides have had their say on that thread

Lastly and for whatever it is worth, most people who choose calibers such as 300 H&H, 375 H&H and 404 Jeffrey are choosing a complete package and it is the general appeal of these calibers to such people. Practicality or specific velocities with different bullets are not really a big issue.

I don't really think that someone who is interested in the 404 Jeffrey Improved is a true candidate for the 404.

I would think that since you have posted so much on the 404, then the cost of the brass is not a big issue. On that basis a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby just might be your best solution, since one of the main objections to the 416 Rigby/CZ 550 package is cost of 416 cases. They are not much more expensive than 404 cases.

All the velocities you are seeking will be easily achieved with the 416 Rigby.

Now I know why I always come back to the 375 H&H

Mike

Mike375,
Well done!

Kev,
I think you have all the info you need in Mike's post above.

BTW, Kev, have you been sending me emails addressed to "Larry?" I am not Larry so have not responded to the last 2 emails from you. You need to check your address book.

416 RULES! Am I beating a dead horse too?

HI,

Mike 375 thank you for your information and your insight. I am glad a person like you, kinds
of know what I am looking for.The 416 Rigby if it will feed as reliable as the 404J with its slop case,and I think you are on the money. The 416 Rigby can get to the fps I want, This is a big problem for me as if a person looks at it. I will end up spending between 3,500 to 4,000 $ that is a awful lot of money to anyone. I may not be finality well off as it seems as so many are here to afford 4,000 and 7,000$ guns. So the point is if I spend this kind of money I want to be able to hunt anything any where at any range.I think to much maybe , but 4,000 $ is alot to me, I may be just a blue collar worker that is way out of his class here. I want a gun that will do it all if needed. Thanks for your help, so any people here are the salt of the EARTH, KEV

HI,

I apologize if I e-mailed you as Larry, I have so much on my plate right now. I have three gun projects going on, talk about a person who's eyes are bigger than his stomach. Anyway I have a 50-110 lever and I am looking for the best bolt action I can get, and a hand gun,500 mag.I am looking so hard to get the hell out of where I am,in CT now you may understand. That sometimes I get ahead of myself.I say 2,200$ for the lever and 4,000$ for the bolt and 2,100 for the hand gun and I will be okay, I have a problem. I am looking to go to Alaska and I am making a big push for these guns,while I can.I have learned so much here and am very happy for the help I have gotten from the beautiful people here.The way I look at it a 404 Jeff or a 416 Rigby I can"t go wrong. Thanks for your experience and help,GOD BLESS. Kev

Kev,

I think a 416 Rigby is more tapered than the 404.

Also, if you buy a CZ in 416, you get to try it for feeding right now and you can also shoot it right now. Not so with the 404 option.

The CZ lets you get going for a low price yet people like Rigby used the BRNO/CZ in the past for their high dollar guns. There is a 505 Gibbs on a BRNO for sale on the Westley Richards website for $7900US, so the CZ will let you go all the way.

In fact you will see many very high dollar guns made on the CZ/BRNO actions.

As to using a 416 Rigby for every shooting activity, there are a lot of Ruger Number 1 and CZ 416 owners on www.shooters.com that use all sorts of loads in them from light cast bullet loads throught to 300 grain X bullets at plus on 3000 f/s.

Mike

HI,

All I can say is thank you Mike you are a gentleman and a very good hearted person. I appreciate your input it will be very helpful to me. Thanks and God bless,Kev

Kev,

My pleasure.

To set you going and courtesty of Westley Richards pictures:

Picture 1 is standard 416 CZ, that is your starting point:

http://westleyrichards.com/usedguns.asp?Type=Rifles&ID=200112615172177

Picture 2 is the 505 on the BRNO/CZ, so you can go all the way in both rifle and caliber with a CZ 416 as the starting point.

http://westleyrichards.com/usedguns.asp?Type=Rifles&ID=200112615172251

Mike

[ 06-02-2002, 10:15: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

HI,

Mike, I just dialed 911, was that 7,900$. I am not sure, but that cz550 at around 700. sound darn good Kev

I agree with Mikes well stated posts and he is spot on...

My only reason for going to the 404 over the 416 Rigby is the size of that big 416 Rigby action and the weight of the rifles....I prefer the slim trim lighter 404 or 416 Rem...

Now, the 416 Rem is a very good option also and will equal the two above calibers for all practical purposes, plus ammo and components are easily obtained and very inexpensive...

HI,

I just added that to another post on this forum,from what I understand. The 404Jeff will go into a shorter action the weight saved is only a few ozs,but the stock will not have to accommadate the deeper mag for a longer action. So it is really a combination of a shorter action and a slimer stock which when combined gives a over all lighter package.And of course one can hand load the 404Jeff to a high levels if wanted. thanks,Kev, not bad for green horn