Right on Ray!

Preach it Brother.

Ray,

I think the original poster is asking for the more experienced here to consider writing a treatise telling us more about the things you are describing. Yes, we should better understand what constitutes a real trophy (and perhaps there is some "beauty in the eye of the individual beholder") but that would be very much easier if the experienced folk could pass along some of your learnings.

We'd sure appreciate it!

Thanks,

Just tell your PH you want an old, gray faced veteran. Tell him that you by God won't settle for less.

Let SCI and especially Rowland Ward wad their books up and stuff 'em.

You'll find your old boy usually away from the herd with a couple of other old boys. Hardly ever in the herd but almost always away on their own. Hard to find.

Sometimes one of them won't have a tail. Sometimes none of them will have a tail.

Their horn tips will be worn and blunt. They won't measure wide. Old, gray, mean and staring at you like nothing else ever has or will.

One of them will be the one you want.

A buffalo may only be judged by a jury of his peers. All else is mere opinion.

I agree with mstarling.

Scott, I'll try to put something together to better answer your question. Too bad I dumped all my buffalo pics, other than a select few.

Ray, I think the forum can benefit from your experience by discussing the bosses on this bull. It's mine so you wont upset anyone

That's a nice looking buff and I see you shot him with a Krieghoff Double.....what caliber? How many shots? What was the range? What do you think of the Krieghoff cocking mechanism?

Soft boss = young bull



soft boss = young bull



hard boss = old bull



hard boss = old bull


happy hunting!

Pics too small to see much,

Justaboutfishing,

I would suggest that your bull is a very decent bull with nice big bosses. He looks to be about 37 inches in the photo but its hard to judge a Buffalo in a photo.. He is mature and about 5 years old is my guess...He is as big as he would have gotten and all that was left for him would have been to get old and rubbed the bosses smooth like marble...He is the equivelent of a 26" heavy horned Mule deer or a 6x6 300 B&C elk, if that is of any use to anyone...

I consider your bull a very shootable bull and you should be proud of him...Will he make the record book? no he will not, is he better than average? probably so...His two shortcommings perhaps are length of horn and lack of drop, but again he is a fine enough bull by anyones count, He is a trophy bull..If he was shot in Zimbabwe North as I suspect, then he is better than average..

Thats the best I can do with a picture...I let it all hang out here and made some arguementive statments and I could be wrong on some of them, but that's the way I see it as per your request...

Remember we all see trophy animals in a different light and the bottom line with me is any mature Cape Buffalo is a trophy and the killing of a record book animal is more luck than skill, those bulls are like gold, they are just where you find them...

I think more emphasis should be placed on the memories of the hunt than on the size of somethings head, that IMO is nothing more than an ego trip for most..I have one mounted Buffalo head, he is 38 inches with nice bosses, not big, but he was one hell of a brave bull and died trying his damdest to mash me into bits and pieces, I still remember every detail of that hunt..I would not change him for a 50inch bull...These are the things that count IMO..........

Keep in mind that the difference in a 38 inch bull and the imagined 40 inch bull is "one inch" on each horn, and I doubt that many folks could tell a 40 from a 38 inch on the wall, or would even try to measure it, and the only person that sees your name or even gives a rats a$$ in the record book is YOU!!

All conjuncture on my part!

Thanks Ray, I hope this helps on the questions of bosses. The Bull came from the North West Selous and measured 38". You hit it right on the head. I looked for some other pictures to give a different view, once again, I did not take enough pictures

justaboutfishing, If you want honesty about that buffalo picture of yours I will be very frank with you about that buffalo. Who ever measured that buffalo of yours either has a bad tape measure or down right lied to you about the width of that buffalo. That buffalo measures 34"-35" at the very most!!!! The buffalo has good bosses and is a good trophy bull, but the spread is no way 38".

You asked for an opinion, and am giving you an honest opinion on that buffalo from my experience, as someone has told you wrong. Your PH should have been able to tell you that that buffalo would not go over 35".

A couple of thoughts on judging buff...(1) I think I read in Robertson's book that a buff's ears were typically about 32" tip-to-tip and (2) according to Krieghoff specs, the Classic rifle is 41 1/2" long.

Given that, my 1st guess was 35" to 36" but that was just based on geometry as I've only shot one buffalo.

Safari12, thanks for your input. I did the measuring with a steel tape.

Would you call this a nice bull with a soft boss? As Saeed said..."needs a haircut".



http://www.hunt101.com/img/050599.JPG



The famous Vince Lupo 45-70 bull/ Hard bosses but not much spread. Notice the area between the bosses that will come out with cleaning.









http://www.hunt101.com/img/029578.jpg





This is my buff.......40" on the nose (or maybe 39 7/8")

http://www.hunt101.com/img/008630.jpg

Sorry about the pics being so small....I'm still learning about this damn picture posting....can anyone help in enlarging them as I'm afraid that is as far as I can go

JBoutfish: I would have judged that buff at 36" but hey if you measured it then it is as you say 38" ! Irrespective of the width, I would not have hesitated in taking that bull and to me it shows just enough character to qualify as a "dagga boy".....

By the way, I would age him between 6 and 7

Happy hunting!

Bwanamich,



There are three sizes of pics on Imagestation. The thumbnail is the smallest (which is what you have posted). In the future click on the thumbnail pic on Imagestation and you will get the correct size for posting. You can edit your post above by deleting ".thumb.jpg" from the end of each pic's address. It will look like the pic below.







Regards,



Terry



P.S.

The third size pic on Imagestation is the original size pic (it will have "orig" in the URL). It is too large to post on another website like AR.

Thanks Terry,
Here goes my attempt:

Hard Boss = Old buff


Medium Boss = not very old not very young = mature



soft boss = young buff



Hard boss = Old buff



Question: Which would you rather have as a trophy? Cannot count the last buff as that is too obvious

hint, the soft bossed bulls here have a better spread then the hard one shown on the 1st picture!

Happy hunting!

#4 is a real beauty and I agree that #3 should not have been shot but I really like #2 and would drop the hammer on his twin with no qualms.

#1 is certainly a mature buff but I doubt if I would take him as my personal preference in buff goes to deeper drops on the curve and if I'm going to put it on my wall I want to like it....and I'm not sure it's all that more mature than #2 as they will both clean up with a decent size white area between the horns.

OK, tell me about this bull. My PH said he had already formed his "hard line" and wouldn't get any closer in the boss? He measured about 38" and my PH "generously" scored him 99 5/8 SCI (just out of the book) for reference. He is my first African animal so of course he is going on the wall. Is this true about the boss? How old would you say he looks? Ray or others, your inputs would be appreciated to educate a novice.

Blacktailer,
That is an average bull and a long way from making the book..He is a good representive trophy, the equivelent of a 24" 5x5 mule deer...

Albiet on the technical side he would make the SCI book as any animal will make the SCI book but maybe in 1000th place..That is the problem with SCI in my opine, they want to put you in the book for a $100 bill...Rowland Ward is a better deal IMO.....

Ray,
What about the "hard line"?
Would this bull improve with age other than getting a smoother boss and wearing down the tips?
Would his boss ever grow closer together?
Thanks!
Blacktailer

All the bulls posted are nice Buffalo and would honor anyones trophy room, but the only sho nuff real dagga boy is the bottom bull or #4 on Bwanamichs post...Now that is an old road warrior, lots of drop, shiney bosses, grey in the face, old and onery, he has character...That is what the trophy hunter should strive for, at least until the last day of the hunt, then take what comes or go home empty...

Way too much emphisis is put on spread alone...If you measure a buff like old #4 from tip to tip around and over the boss, he will out measure most bulls that have considably more spread...like a high horned mule deer with long tines and a 30" spread will outscore a lot of 35" mule deer....

But remember not everyone is going to come home with a sure enough bull like that one, that is unrealistic thinking nor will everyone kill a 35 inch mule deer this year..So it pays to be carefull where we set our sights, some can and some cannot, either way is not important, what is important is if you are satisfied with your kill and your hunt, never lose sight of that...If you are one of those who carries a tape in his pocket for everything he shoots then that is your thing, but that's not for everyone and the hunter that is happy with his nice hard boss 38 inch bull is a person to be admired and envied IMO, he has learned to respect the hunt, the country around him, and the animals he he sees without being driven....He enjoys his sport and that description applies to most of you or so it seems to me....

Gentlemen,



An old and cantankerous buffalo, hence he lost one of his horns. He had old lion marks on him too.



Three old bulls. Notice the great differences in the boss shapes



Another old buffalo bull. The tip of one of his horns was broken off, he measured 49 inches across.



This is what I would call a classic cape buffalo boss.



This is an adult bull, but by no means an old one. He still has a soft spot between his horns.

On the photo with the 3 bulls...everytime I see a bull like the one in the center the shape of the bosses remind me of those photos of girls doing the hula and wearing coconut bras.

I've often wondered if the shape of the horns...the amount of drop, the size and shape of the boss, etc is an inheritated trait or are there other important factors.

If it were in their genes I would think most of the bulls in a herd would have similar horn characteristics but from my one buff hunt I don't think that's the case.

Guys,

This has turned into a GREAT thread!!! Lots more information than I fully understand.

Thank you VERY much.

Ray, First you knock SCI buffalo scoring and in the very next post you say "Way too much emphisis is put on spread alone... If you measure a buff like old #4 from tip to tip around and over the boss, he will out measure most bulls that have considably more spread.. " ??? Does the SCI method for buffalo not do exactly this? I also fail to see why you say any buffalo will make SCI, when the opposite is true. I've seen plenty of shit bulls that would make RW via a 42" spread but not come close to scoring 100 SCI. Like I've said before, it generally requires a bull of fine proportion to score 100 SCI. I don't say SCI is a better system, just that it does a better job in regard to cape buffalo, than does a width-only approach.



Blacktailor, It's a tough call from that angle as to SCI score but I'd say your PH was right in regard to the bosses, anyway.



Here are two 40" bulls that scored 102 & 101 SCI, respectively.

See anything wrong with the scoring system?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-2/104814/BuffZimXX0066.JPG

The only things I see wrong with those two buff are the two guys holding them. Those are great buffalo.

The bottom line here is that every buff has a slightly different horn shape: tips, boss, spread.

As long as it doesn't have soft bosses (after 6 or 7 years), it is a good trophy. Most buff that get shot are in the 35" to 38" range because that is how big the average buffalo gets. If you luck into one bigger that is great but it not the end of the world if you don't.

Not shooting an average buff and returning home empty-handed may sound great, but what the hell is the point? To my way of thinking, I am going to hunt and shoot buffalo. You can't get any experience buffalo hunting if you just fret about scores. Shoot 'em all!

Saeed, on the picture you call a classis buffalo boss, do you have another view of him? The total package looks like a great trophy.

Will be back in Tanzania October 05, the bar has been set

I'm pullin' for ya Jim! The Best of luck.

Blacktailer,
I think he is about all he would ever be and he should have been shot IMO...Nice bull...

Nickudu,
Maybe your right, I will give it some thought, I just have a problem with a system that lets everyones name in the book and maybe I need to revise my thinking, maybe not!

Probably not a real issue with me anyway as I don't really care one way or the other, so I will strike that statement from the book to satisfy those who found distaste in that part of my post, and I apoligise for that.

One scoring system is about as good as another and the only thing that is positive about them is it does give one a possible idea where good heads are to be found in some cases and its a real ego booster for some.

Jim,

I am not sure, but I will look.

This photo was taken by my friend and PH, Roy Vincent, and he sent it to me.

Ray - "for the record", I have never entered any animal into any record book. I use the systems to formulate and/or ratify my own opinion, as to what qualifies as a "fine" specimen. I can count on one hand, those who have seen my modest collection of trophies, first hand. Best Regards ... Nick

Nick,

Not to belabor this, but who gives a rat's ass what others think about your buffalo or anyone else's?

Me. When people such as yourself say "Those are great buffalo" it matters. When Ray Atkinson compliments my best buffalo, it matters. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's the truth of it.

Jim,

This is another one I found.

Nick,

To each their own. My motivation is the gaining of a lot of actual experience at hunting buffalo, or whatever. I'd rather shoot a dozen or two average buff than a single record head.

I still think your buffalo are great trophies, and congratulations on getting them. What the hell, you are famous: Barnes and Swainson's ads.

Thank you Saeed. A really nice Buff. Looking at your wrist on the boss, I am guessing about 18"?

Will,

Tell me you wouldn't trade 3 cows for one 90 pounder.



My motivation is the same as yours but if I know I'm only going to take two bulls, I hunt hard for the best two I can find.



Saeed, That is one fine bull. Better, IMO, than your 49".

Nick,

I have no problem with anyone shooting big bulls or little bulls or whatever they want. It is all personal stuff, in my opinion. A big part of the excitement is in the pursuit of the biggest ones you can find, and I am glad you were successful.

See my e-mail to you.