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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Is the Sako 75 Safari a true CRF or an imitation of one?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Was just at the barbershop and was perusing an article on the new Sako 75 Safari. It has lots of neat �African� stuff like a quarter rib with standing leaf sight and other goodies. The detachable magazine has been replaced with a conventional mag with floorplate. It is chambered in, so far, .375 H&H, .416 Rem. Mag and .458 win. Mag. But the main DGR feature of this rifle is that it is being touted as having Controlled Round Feed. Now the Model 75 is a three lug rifle, so how did they do it? Read on� What they have done is to mill off the front of the bottom two lugs, mill out the bottom of the lip which would have enclosed the case head and enlarge their standard extractor a bit, so that the case head does indeed come up underneath the extractor as it is being stripped from the magazine. Unlike the standard Mauser or Winchester claw which is located at about the 9:00 o�clock position (when viewed from the front), the Sako extractor is more at about the 10:00 o�clock position. Since it is the Sako spring loaded extractor, naturally it will still snap over a round loaded directly into the chamber. From the looks of it, it is pretty near as large as a Mauser or Model 70 butnot quite. They have kept the same blade ejector which rises up in a slot in the bolt as the bolt is withdrawn. They have also obviously kept the three lug locking system with the reduced bolt throw (which I believe also means reduced extraction camming power). So, my question is: Do you consider this to be a true Controlled Round Feed rifle or a usurper and cheap imitation of one? Do only those rifles with a non-rotating claw extractor have a valid claim to that title? Knowing the reputation of Sako, would you consider the 75 Safari a valid contender for the title of a �True Dangerous Game Rifle�? [This message has been edited by Jim in Idaho (edited 01-04-2002).] | ||
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Here is a link to the Sako site with pictures of the Sako 75 action: http://www.sako.fi/rifles_success.html Unfortunately, the pictures don't enlarge. But they do give a description if you put your pointer on a picture. Regards, Terry [This message has been edited by T.Carr (edited 01-04-2002).] | |||
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It is a true control feed rifle! The control feed has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the extractor, but has to do with the bolt haveing control of the round from it's departure from the magazine to it's ejection! The Sako is, IMO, just as good as a Mauser, with maybe an edge given to the Sako for the extra lug! ------------------ | |||
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Jim, Mac is right by definition of what a CRF action is. I still think the Sako is inferior to a Mauser because of the weaknesses you pointed out. The extractor and the weak cam. There may be advantages with the Sako in otherways that escape me, but I don't think the Sako new action modifications can equal a Mauser. Still, it must be an improvement over their pushfeed ... maybe. They have the finest pushfeed around, most would say. I can get by without them just fine. ------------------ | |||
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The Sako is on par with the Savage Safari, both having their push-feeds converted, to duplicate what a Mauser will do. Two ways to skin a controlled-feed cat! To a point. The difference in the Savage, is it has a ball detent to help hold the cartridge rim, and control it with more security, then the Sako. It "appears" in the picture, that with the Sako, a rim may not be controlled, if taken out of the action. A Mauer will hold the round, when taken out of the action. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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quote: The camming effect you are talking about, if you mean twisting the round loose from the chamber walls, does not exist, except with an un-fired round, and most times not even then! It also does not exist in a Mauser. The extractor simply rides around the fired, and expanded cartridge case in the extractor grouve, and does not turn it. The extractor does stay in contact with the extractor surfaces, however, but then so does a push feed at that point! Still all my DGR bolt rifles are true Mausers, and for the foreseeable future they will remain Mausers, but that wasn't what was asked. The NEW Sako is a CRF rifle, and as such is a far cry ahead of anything they have made in recent years. ------------------ | |||
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For the life of me I have never seen the advantage of a bolt being able to hold a round when it is "Outside the action". If the round slips in under the extractor under forward motion of the bolt and is held there until extraction and ejection then it is a CRF. BUT At what stage of the loading stroke does the rim slip under the extractor? Right at the start, in the middle, or at the end of the stroke? I would venture that if the operator was to start a loading stroke with this rifle, pick up a round, stop at any stage and retract and the rifle did not eject the round, but was able to pick up another, then that rifle is not a CRF in the strict definition of the term, even though the rim of the cartridge is sliding up the breech face and would eventually slide under the extractor, instead of snap under it. If the extractor is higher up, at 10 o'clock, then the round slips under the extractor LATER in the stroke than the Mauser, and the problem I've described above can occur. (whew) Best to check out the mechanics of it before passing judgement ------------------ | |||
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"Outside the action" is to show that a Mauser will have control, just as if it were in the action. To demenstrate, if you please. I agree with you about the Sako, and possibly the Savage having control about the point where the round is nearly stripped from the magazine. I can only surmise, since I don't own either. I do own a two Mausers, though. A Mauser is supposed to have control once the round starts to be pushed from the magazine, by the claw because it sits low, near it. If short stroked, the bolt can be pulled full rear, having left the round behind, be pushed back and continue the re-charging. Also, the bolt can ride over a canted round(partly pushed out of the magazine), and shove it back down in the magazine. BTW A round will be pulled out, and tossed before the next round is picked up. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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How does the CRF function of the new Sako compare to that on the Ruger M77? Are the modifications to give CRF confined to the just bolt of the Sako??? If so, would it be possible to retrospectively modify an older model Sako? | |||
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ALF, Are you sure about the Rugers??? I have Peter | |||
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The old model 77 Rugers and the initial Mark II 77's were pushfeed. Current Mark II Ruger 77's are indeed CRF. The distinction needs to be made. They have been since the early 90's. About 1992? Any Ruger historians out there? ------------------ | |||
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Alf, Current Rugers are CRF. Early ones were as you described but the express rifles in 375 and 416 were CRF when it they first came out. Mike | |||
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Gentlemen: The standard, unmodified Mauser will jam on a cartridge which is not fed from the magazine -- a truly disabling condition. On the other hand, a push-feed action will not extract a partially chambered round. In other words, the Mauser malfunctions when operated in a manner which in most other rifles is perfectly acceptable, but the push-feed only malfunctions when operated in a manner which is totally improper in any rifle. Also, the Mauser effectively reduces your cartridge capacity by one round, being unable to chamber a round place directly into the barrel. I wouldn't be unhappy to hunt with either, but wouldn't give you a nickel for the difference in performance. | |||
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In my experience, if you take a whole cross setion of CRF and Push Feeds, and you had to pick at random just one rifle, I would pick the push feed for reliability. I use to do range officer duty at our large rifle range, an it was the Mauser type actions with the problems, especially conversions. Some also have problems with poor case rims as they won't slide up under the extractor. Protuding primers don't help either. I like to use the CRF more than a push feed but only because it is easy to run cartrdiges through the magazine and also they are good when shooting as you can have the bolt pushed forward with the cartridge about 3/4s into the chamber. Push feeds are not as good for that plus you end up having to chamber to get the round out. But I would not give my vote to CRF on reliability. I think it is like many German ideas that are over engineered and don't always work as well as they might if everything is not right. Perhaps the Sako offers the best of both worlds. I think the most relaible feeders are the push feed vertical stack magazines. Mike [This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 01-04-2002).] | |||
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Current Ruger MKII are CRF. I bought a new stainless MKII in 30-06 last year. It is a true CRF. Grabs the round as the bolt slides forward and will not let go until pulled completely back, at which time the blade ejector ejects the round. Yes, previous model 77's looked like CRF, but were not. That however has changed. i am not sure exactly what year the change occured, but the new MKII's are CRF. Good shooting. Mark. | ||
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Regarding Stonecreek's comment about Mauser type actions jamming on cartridges not fed from the magazine, there are two angles on that I'd like to address. The caveat is that my experience is limited to the Enfield P-17 and I assume would work with a Mauser, Ruger, Win pre-64 70, etc. While Stonecreek is strictly correct I think there are ways around it. First, assuming some extra room in the magazine when fully loaded (i.e., not enough for another round but the spring isn't fully compressed) a round can be partially pressed into the magazine using this space and then successfully chambered. I think it's important to note here that it would be rare when this isn't done in a calm situation. Second, if the comment was more directed towards a round being in the chamber area but the bolt not being securely locked with the extractor over the rim there is still a way out even though a push feed is much better in this situation. When I first started getting involved with my Enfields I had this happen a few times and assumed the only way out was to push a rod down the barrel from the muzzle end. I never liked this solution for a variety of reasons not the least of which was safety (I've read of a man who had done this, forgot about the rod being in the barrel, rechambered, fired, and the resultant disaster took his life) as well as the hightened potential for damage to the barrel crown. The solution is to start working the bolt down over the chambered case and as you encounter resistance you then press down on the middle of the extractor taking advantage of some "springiness" thus allowing the extractor face (forgive me terminology) to rise a little higher and slip over the case rim. I like this much better than the cleaning rod method. Of course I shoot mainly fire-formed neck sized only cases and a fresh case may not be such a problem?? This method would also allow one to chamber an "extra" round if there isn't enough room in the magazine to use the first method I described. Anyway, I thought that may be of interest and some potential use. Reed | |||
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Reed: Thanks for your comments. I haven't worked with Enfields, mostly only with military Mausers. More than once, I, or someone I've been shooting with, has experienced the situation of failing to place a single-fed round fully within the magazine, having it pop loose prior to engaging the extractor, and finding yourself hopelessly "Mausered". Never tried working the bolt down while pressuring the center of the extractor, so I can't say if this would work with a Mauser. I think, and I could certainly be wrong because I've never done any "internal" action gunsmithing, that on a military Mauser, the right-hand bolt cut in the inside of the action ring is not deep enough to allow the extractor to spring over the case rim. My assuption is that the fix for this would be to both bevel the face of the extractor and machine the bolt cut a little deeper. Would be interested to see how knowledgable people have tackled this problem. | |||
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Stonecreek, For all I know those modification may have been done to my Enfield action. I have a stock military issue Enfield that I could try this on sometime in the future and see if it works. I'd be interested to know if this trick works on a Mauser with unmodified extractor should anyone give it a try? Reed | |||
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Yes , you can press on the middle of the extractor and slip it over the rim of a chambered cartridge with most 98 Mausers . [This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 01-05-2002).] | |||
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Once can also remove the bolt, insert a round in the bolt-face, and re-insert it in the action. One can have their claw tip modified to slip over a rim, within the chamber, but this leaves it slightly less area to "bite" the rim for extraction. A give and take situation, I suppose. The current MKII are CRF, my honey's 358 Win is such. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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A light bevel and polish at the lead edge of the extractor is all that is required to top feed any Mauser. | |||
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