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Thoughts on Krieghoff Doubles
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Just wondering about everyone's thoughts are on the Krieghoff Classic Double rifles?? I don't own a double yet, and thought I'd ask about these. I primarily bowhunt so a Double Rifle would be somewhat of a luxury item, with use limited to Buffalo, Lion and Leopard most likely. I have a Sako .375 H & H bolt gun, so what caliber would you'all suggest for a double gun? Thanks!!

Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 3460 | Location: Jemez Mountains, New Mexico | Registered: 09 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Larry,

I personally do not like the safety on the Krieghoff..I also would make sure it has a manual safety and not automatic...If for buf a 450/400 would be great to own and or a 470 which would be very saleable..


Mike


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Posts: 6768 | Location: Wyoming, Pa. USA | Registered: 17 April 2003Reply With Quote
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What is a good price on a new, plain-jane, Kriegoff .470 now?


JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous.
 
Posts: 7764 | Location: GA | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
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What would normally be a safety is actually a cocking/decocking device. I like the rifle personally except for that cocking mechanism that they have. It is a little clumsy for me and I suspect anyone who is used to shooting a double rifle or shotgun may also find it ackward. Like everything else I suppose with practice one would become very proficient but it would take practice and lots of it. As for caliber I would choose the 470NE.
 
Posts: 740 | Location: CT/AZ USA | Registered: 14 February 2001Reply With Quote
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I have a .470 Double that I like very much. Not in Kreighoff, however. I have shot elephant and buffalo with it. I'm also not sure that you would want to use it on Leopard.
 
Posts: 18581 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
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The safty is great for a client but a tad slow for a PH imo. And set it up with a swing off mount like Recknagel with a 1.2x4 Zeiss or Schmidt&Bender scope in 500/416cal would be almost ideal for most African game imo.
OZHUNTER
 
Posts: 5886 | Location: Sydney,Australia  | Registered: 03 July 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by retreever:
Larry,

I personally do not like the safety on the Krieghoff..I also would make sure it has a manual safety and not automatic...If for buf a 450/400 would be great to own and or a 470 which would be very saleable..


Mike

Well, lets get it right. The Krieghoff does not have a saftey. It is either cocked or not. The thumb operated tang is not a saftey, it is a cocking device. When the tang is in the rear position, the rifle is not cocked and cannot fire. When the tang is moved to the forward position the rifle is ready to fire. It can be uncocked by exerting a small about of thumb pressure forward and then allow the tang to slide to the rear.

Now to continue, when you fire the double, the tang stays in the forward position. When you open and reload the chambers, the rifle is again cocked and ready to fire. If the tang is in the rear (uncocked) position, opening the action will not cock the rifle.

Since the rifle is carried in the uncocked position, saftey is assured. I have practiced and when the double is shouldered, I automatically thumb the tang forward making the double ready to fire instantly.


Jim "Bwana Umfundi"
NRA



 
Posts: 3014 | Location: State Of Jefferson | Registered: 27 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Now to continue, when you fire the double, the tang stays in the forward position.


Not if, during recoil, your hand hits the decocking device and "de-cocks" the rifle. Then you will not have a speedy second shot.

It happened to me shooting a .470 about eight years ago.

Buy a Searcy.


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If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming...

 
Posts: 2789 | Location: Bucks County, Pennsylvania | Registered: 08 June 2005Reply With Quote
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UEG - You are right about the Leopard thing. Wasn't thinking when I included Leopard in the list of poetential uses. I'll actually be trying for the cat with my bow, but will have a scoped 300 WSM along side if all doesn't go well.


quote:
Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I have a .470 Double that I like very much. Not in Kreighoff, however. I have shot elephant and buffalo with it. I'm also not sure that you would want to use it on Leopard.
 
Posts: 3460 | Location: Jemez Mountains, New Mexico | Registered: 09 February 2006Reply With Quote
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It happened to me shooting a .470 about eight years ago.

Really? 470 what?


Jim "Bwana Umfundi"
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Posts: 3014 | Location: State Of Jefferson | Registered: 27 March 2002Reply With Quote
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I really like the Krieghoff and it's cocking system- first rate for a client and no handicap for a PH. For a pro guide rather than a PH I can think of no better system. For a PH...Depends on what you use the rifle for - daily carry? or something you only dig out when going after a problem?

For many years I had a Westly Richards double hammer gun. Theory says that cocking t5he hammers is slower than pushing a safety off, but I never noticed it- as the rifle came up my right hand swept the hammers back - not that I would go to a hammer gun if given a choice!

Also, For a client I like the .500/.416 round. Flat enough shooting for most plains game arround here, and a beter lion round than the .470 or .500
 
Posts: 3026 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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I don't own a Krieghoff. I do like the cocking device. It makes for a very safe carry.

The 500/416 should be an awesome round! You get a flanged case, a long ,416 bullet that penetrates well!

The downside is the recoil is just about that of a 470.

Just my opine.
 
Posts: 9797 | Location: Missouri City, Texas | Registered: 21 June 2000Reply With Quote
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I'm a PH and I own a Krieghoff Classic Big Five. I'm happy with its cocking devise. One of my other rifles, a Sauer Drilling has a similar device and I'm using it since more than 20 years. Just perfect.
 
Posts: 640 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 12 June 2003Reply With Quote
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I have 3 doubles, none a Krieghoff. However I use a Blaser R 93 and a Blaser K 95 single shot, both which use a similar cocking system. I have handled several and shot a 500/416 Krieghoff. It shot great.
I would not have ANY problem hunting with a Krieghoff. Just like on the Blaser, once you get used to it it is a good system.


DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
 
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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The only thing wrong with a Krieghoff double is a shooter inexperienced in its decocker. Its just like double set triggers. If you do not know how to use them they suck. if you know the score they are great.


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Posts: 1107 | Location: Houston Texas | Registered: 06 March 2005Reply With Quote
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When the Kreighoff Classic Big Five in 500/416 first came out I heard of three cases where the actions froze up upon firing. I have not heard of any problems for a few years now and so assume the problem was high pressure and that the cartridges are now loaded to lower pressure and velocity.
 
Posts: 1116 | Location: asted@freenet.de | Registered: 14 January 2006Reply With Quote
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www.krieghoff.de - www.krieghoff.com

WOW, there are many very flattering opinions here on the subject of the KRIEGHOFF BIG FIVE.

And a number of writers that I mistakenly thought were "British and ONLY British" types are in that group.

GANYANA'S credentials speak for themself, I think we can all agree. I must now have another look at these rifles.

The U.S.A. HQ for KRIEGHOFF is only an hour from my home and they do service there. A point to concider for me, hmmm...



Jack

OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.}

 
Posts: 2791 | Location: USA - East Coast | Registered: 10 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Thanks Ganyana. I really do appreciate your input on this. Also, sorry for being so insensitive toward you on another subject in days gone by.

Larry


quote:
Originally posted by Ganyana:
I really like the Krieghoff and it's cocking system- first rate for a client and no handicap for a PH. For a pro guide rather than a PH I can think of no better system. For a PH...Depends on what you use the rifle for - daily carry? or something you only dig out when going after a problem?

For many years I had a Westly Richards double hammer gun. Theory says that cocking t5he hammers is slower than pushing a safety off, but I never noticed it- as the rifle came up my right hand swept the hammers back - not that I would go to a hammer gun if given a choice!

Also, For a client I like the .500/.416 round. Flat enough shooting for most plains game arround here, and a beter lion round than the .470 or .500
 
Posts: 3460 | Location: Jemez Mountains, New Mexico | Registered: 09 February 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
quote:
It happened to me shooting a .470 about eight years ago.

Really? 470 what?


Really. A Kreighoff Big Five, basic model, in .470 NE.

It may have resulted in a poor grip on the gun, but the bottom line is due to the recoil, I decocked the rifle after the first shot.

It was a rookie mistake, but bottom line is it happened. Could it happen again- absolutely. I, personally, would rather not have that variable in play when my life may be on the line.


577NitroExpress
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If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming...

 
Posts: 2789 | Location: Bucks County, Pennsylvania | Registered: 08 June 2005Reply With Quote
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My friend Mark a/k/a 400 Nitro will probably puke, but here is my take on the guns. They are not as pretty as a nice vintage gun, but are great rifles and the only ones suitable for absolutely safe "African" carry and having loaded and ready for action in a safari car. They are better rifles for 99% of guys who are interested in shooting a double and could care less about the home towns of the Welsh miners who dug up the ore used to manufacture the steel for the barrels.

I have owned a 500/416 for a few years and used it to kill one elephant, 2 mombies and an eland. None of the shots were easy and required a bit fit and function to pull off the hits. (Although I did miss the first shot at a jumping eland another hunter had properly motivated) That caliber seems to be a first class killer and dropped the escaping elephant with one body shot to the shoulder. The 500/416 is the most versatile double caliber on the market with the range and trajectory for hunting large plains game and the energy for taking on dangerous game.

Don Heath has seen me do a bit of rapid deployment and fast shooting with mine a few years ago in Zim. Ask him if the cocking mechanism, handling characterists or recoil recovery seemed to slow me down any.

If you are not hung up on owning a vintage English double, and the problems and pitfalls attendant to them, and want a modern double to shoot any bullet available then a Krieghoff is a fine choice. They are simple to operate, have good sights, great triggers and offer a fairly slim package, plus you can purchased slightly used for much less than a worn out vintage gun. The warranty is wonderful on them as I found out when my father dropped the forearm of mine on a concrete floor and broke the base. Krieghoff repaired the damage and I only paid the fee to ship my rifle to them.

Perry
 
Posts: 1144 | Location: Green Country Oklahoma | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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i have a problem with the cocking portion, but it's my problem. 45 years of working conventional type doubles make for pretty firm habits. I've got a blaser 95 in the rack and have trouble getting used to the thing. Providing you practice with the rifle enough to become 2nd nature, I see no problems. for me - nope
 
Posts: 13466 | Location: faribault mn | Registered: 16 November 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by PWN375:
My friend Mark a/k/a 400 Nitro will probably puke, but here is my take on the guns. They are not as pretty as a nice vintage gun, but are great rifles and the only ones suitable for absolutely safe "African" carry and having loaded and ready for action in a safari car. They are better rifles for 99% of guys who are interested in shooting a double and could care less about the home towns of the Welsh miners who dug up the ore used to manufacture the steel for the barrels.

I have owned a 500/416 for a few years and used it to kill one elephant, 2 mombies and an eland. None of the shots were easy and required a bit fit and function to pull off the hits. (Although I did miss the first shot at a jumping eland another hunter had properly motivated) That caliber seems to be a first class killer and dropped the escaping elephant with one body shot to the shoulder. The 500/416 is the most versatile double caliber on the market with the range and trajectory for hunting large plains game and the energy for taking on dangerous game.

Don Heath has seen me do a bit of rapid deployment and fast shooting with mine a few years ago in Zim. Ask him if the cocking mechanism, handling characterists or recoil recovery seemed to slow me down any.

If you are not hung up on owning a vintage English double, and the problems and pitfalls attendant to them, and want a modern double to shoot any bullet available then a Krieghoff is a fine choice. They are simple to operate, have good sights, great triggers and offer a fairly slim package, plus you can purchased slightly used for much less than a worn out vintage gun. The warranty is wonderful on them as I found out when my father dropped the forearm of mine on a concrete floor and broke the base. Krieghoff repaired the damage and I only paid the fee to ship my rifle to them.

Perry


The above is staight from the horse's mouth, a man who owns one! thumb

I must admit, I had a lot of doubt about this system, in the past, and was miss-informed on some of the aspects of the way it works! Haveing been made aware of some of my misconceptions, I have come away with a different perspective on the Kreighoff double rifle. I now think, especially, for one who has never owned a double rifle, the system would be something that would not be a problem. I say this because, he has not learned the things, attendant to the average double rifle, that must be UN-LEARNED,to handle the Kreighoff, and is starting fresh.

The rifles don't fit me well, and that was the first turn-off for me, and the misconception that the rifle had to be re-cocked after every second shot, was the second one.
I will say something here that may be absolutely wrong, and anyone who knows, may correct me if I am. I've been told, the rifle is not actually de-cocked by pulling the so-called decocker to the rear, but simply relieves the tention some on the tumbler springs. If this is true then the rifle is no safer than a hammer double with rebounding hammers, when loaded. Still it, and the hammer rifle, seem safer than a hammerless double, without a barred safety!

I believe anything Kreighoff makes, is well made, and quality in a working class rifle, or shotgun. Decoration, has no bearing on the quality of a rifle at all, but is simply "BLING".

I think if you do buy a Kreighoff double rifle, since you have a 375 H&H, the 500/416K is the round to get in this case. I believe the Kreighoffs are a little light for the 470NE, and not needed anyway, as the 500/416K will do anything the 470NE will do, all being equal.

Anyway, welcome aboard the DRSS rolls, what ever double rifle you get! beer


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
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"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

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Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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For a PH who wants to carry a loaded double a lot safely and who actually shoots it rarely, I think a decocker is far safer, if the user is thoroughly familiar with it.


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Posts: 10138 | Location: Wine Country, Barossa Valley, Australia | Registered: 06 March 2002Reply With Quote
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I have one in 500/416 and love it....Has a detachable scope. Will be on its second Tanzania safari with me in Oct.
 
Posts: 795 | Location: Vero Beach, Florida | Registered: 03 July 2004Reply With Quote
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FYI - Here's how Krieghoff describes he cocking device on their web site.

"What is the Combi-Cocking Device?
Krieghoff has equipped the CLASSIC with a manual cocking device that combines the speed of a self-cocking rifle with the ultimate in safety. Positioned on the top tang where usually the safety can be found, the combi-cocking device is quick and convenient to use and operates very much like a conventional safety. You carry the CLASSIC with the hammers uncocked - the safest position. When you are ready to fire, you cock the gun with a single, smooth movement of the cocking device. As long as the combi-cocking device is left in the forward, cocked position, the CLASSIC is re-cocked upon opening and is ready to fire when closed. If you do not make your shot, you simply un-cock the gun by pushing the cocking device all the way forward to disengage it, and allowing it to slide back into the uncocked, safe position. For further explanation, go to Combi-Cocking Device under Technical Concepts."

Notice, they say completely uncocked when on safe. While their drawings show spring tension being relieved, the relief is enough that "uncocked" becomes a matter of semantics. The system has taken all tension off and would not be able to fire.


I'll have my 500/416 in Mozambique Sept 1st. Probably will even take it prairie dog shooting the end of June month for a bit of practice. Never know when they will charge.


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Posts: 681 | Location: Spring Branch, TX (Summers in Northern MN) | Registered: 18 September 2004Reply With Quote
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on huntersvideo.dk
it is hunting videos for the hunter, african, european hunts , they have many , and they use different rifles in many of them, buy some of them, theyre good.

they use several krieghoffs in 500-416 and they work great.

it reminds me of John Taylor who missed a 416 flanged ,because that would have been a superb gun for big game hunting and as a allrounder for african hunt.
 
Posts: 1196 | Location: Kristiansand,Norway | Registered: 20 April 2006Reply With Quote
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Anybody using Krieghoff's look-through sight? Comments please.
 
Posts: 640 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 12 June 2003Reply With Quote
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I have a hi-viz front sight on my double (Factory installed) and it makes a world of difference in target acquisition, especially in relation to proper shot placement, low-light conditions, and in heavy bush. It is not a Krieghoff however.
 
Posts: 18581 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Sunshine:
Anybody using Krieghoff's look-through sight? Comments please.jpg[/IMG]


He is gonna miss!

Not to mention it looks like a damn ugly sight and may catch on a pile of junk.

Brent


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Posts: 2257 | Location: Where I've bought resident tags:MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA | Registered: 30 January 2002Reply With Quote
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Rusty, I have a Searcy 470 and a Krieghoff 500/416 and the 470 sure seems to kick more to me. The way people carry doubles by the barrels with just a slide safety must scare PHs to death. I think the Krieghoff sacrifices a small amount of speed but gains a large margin of safety.
 
Posts: 3073 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: 11 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Anybody using Krieghoff's look-through sight? Comments please.


I stongly suspect that these sights are made by Recknagel, who have a whole range of such unusual designs in the catalogue.

I have not used them in the field but I cannot imagine any REAL advantage in their use for large game at typical hunting ranges and they look a little odd.


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Posts: 909 | Location: Blackheath, NSW, Australia | Registered: 26 May 2002Reply With Quote
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The Merkel Hi Viz sight is not like the one for the Krieghoff as found in the above-referenced picture. In fact, it is a ramped blade sight in flourescent orange and is very unobtrusive and attractive. Your view with it is the same as with the brass ramped front blade sight, only in flourescent orange rather than brass.
 
Posts: 18581 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
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The look-through rear sight was really developed for shots at running game. People found regular rear sights covered too much of the (running) target during the swing phase. Thus the look-through feature. Whether they are advantageous for hunting (stationary) DG is probably a matter of taste.

- mike


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Posts: 6653 | Location: Switzerland | Registered: 11 March 2002Reply With Quote
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I've shot the Krieghoff quite a bit myself. All Krieghoff Classics, from 7X65R to .500 Nitro, are built on the same frame. That simplifies a lot of things, but is a hugh trade off. In .375 Flanged Magnum and .500/.416, they handle OK. In .470 and .500 they handle like a creosote corner post. I've shot them a lot, and they're normally very accurate.

Contrary to Perry's assertion, I have nothing against new designs, or new guns. A conventional top tang safety with a completely new take on intercepting sears, such as Rizzini's new design, is a major improvement in safety. The Krieghoff system is a seriously retrograde design. By definition, any safety that is the slightest bit cumbersome is a serious hazard to safety. With slow, cumbersome safety designs, sooner or later in a stressful situation, in the interests of speed, the weapon will be cocked and off safe at precisely that moment in time when it absolutely should not be. That's when accidents happen, and people die. The Krieghoff design is the worst goat rope imaginable. It's a dead PH waiting to happen.
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Posts: 1742 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 January 2006Reply With Quote
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400 Nitro Express,

Come on now. You are grossly overstating your case, don't you think? For anyone with normal strength, dexterity and intelligence, correctly operating the Krieghoff decocker is a snap, and certainly should never prove fatally slow or cumbersome.

The Krieghoff decocker requires more effort to operate than the usual thumb safety, to be sure, but anyone whose thumb is where it should be when it should be, i.e., on the tang, and who is of normal strength, will not be handicapped.

The same charge--too cumbersome and slow--has been made by some against the Blaser decocker, which is essentially the same as the Krieghoff's.

In many years of use and operation, including against dangerous game, I have never found the Blaser decocker to be at all problematic. And I have always appreciated its greater margin of safety, which permits one to routinely carry the rifle with a round chambered, and with the firing mechanism completely inoperative. That safety margin is even more important where double rifles are concerned.

All it takes to operate a decocker is just a little manual dexterity and practice. Any hunter worth his salt will have no trouble with one.

BTW, the Krieghoff doubles I handled at SCI last January seemed to require less force to operate the decocker than those I had handled previously. I don't know if they've made any changes, but they sure seemed easier to work than ever before.

I passed on a .500 NE that I could have bought for less than $10K, but I was tempted. I thought it handled quite well. But alas, I was faced with too many consumer choices, and not enough funds. Big Grin

The only thing I have against the Krieghoffs is their Teutonic styling. I just don't like a schnabel fore end on a double. That would be easy to fix, though.


Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
 
Posts: 13767 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Remember! K.I.S.S. is usually best.

465H&H
 
Posts: 5686 | Location: Nampa, Idaho | Registered: 10 February 2005Reply With Quote
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mrlexma:

No, I overstated nothing. No, it isn't a "snap". I've done enough shooting with the Krieghoff, in several calibers, to know what it is and isn't.

Some years ago, I was very nearly killed by the accidental discharge of another hunter that happened for precisely the reason given in my last post. I've paid particular attention to safety design issues ever since, and view the subject with a singular lack of humour. The conventional top tang safety double gun, without intercepting sears, has it's issues, but I still consider it much safer than the Krieghoff. I consider the Krieghoff design to be inherently unsafe. That's my honest opinion. You're entitled to yours, of course. Wink
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Posts: 1742 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 January 2006Reply With Quote
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We will have to disagree.

I have never understood the tendency to blame the tool for operator error.

In a similar vein, I have had people tell me that they wouldn't use a Blaser on DG because they were afraid that in the heat of things they'd forget it was a straight pull instead of a turn bolt.

As I have said before, after I hear something like this, I begin to wonder if maybe I really do have above-average intelligence and dexterity. Wink Roll Eyes


Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
 
Posts: 13767 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by mrlexma:
400 Nitro Express,

Come on now. You are grossly overstating your case, don't you think? For anyone with normal strength, dexterity and intelligence, correctly operating the Krieghoff decocker is a snap, and certainly should never prove fatally slow or cumbersome.




The Ph i hunted with had a Krieghoff Classic Big five in .500 and it was his second. His first BF was in 470NE.
He was absolutely happy with this double.
 
Posts: 276 | Registered: 28 January 2005Reply With Quote
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As with most things in Africa, I think it's a case of never say never and never say always. The point of a double is for Dangerous Game - everything else is unnecessary. - it doesn't matter how long someone has had a particular rifle, it's more about how often does he hunt DG with it, is the owner the PH or client, does he do the follow ups or leave it to someone else and in what terrain etc.

I appreciate it doesn't take much longer to cock a Kreighoff than it takes to slip the safety off on a traditional double - maybe a fraction of a second.... but it does take slightly longer and sometimes that fraction of a second is vitally important....... especially when you're down to less than 10 yards between you and a pissed off animal. The only other alternative is to carry the rifle cocked and ready to go and that, (IMO) is a recipe for disaster.

Personally, I don't particularly care what rifle a client uses as it's his choice - but this particular PH wouldn't even consider owning a Kreighoff.

Regarding Blasers, I used to have one that got used as a company loaner but it twice gave an A/D. I sent it back to Blaser in Germany who fixed it under guarantee. - But as I'm not confident enough to loan it to a client anymore I got rid of it along with the written guarantee that it's fixed....... and replaced it with a traditional custom built .404 Jeffery bolt action rifle from Sabi Rifles...

If I was going to buy a double, it would have to be a good quality English one such as a "proper" Rigby. - If I can't do that, then I'm more than happy with my .500 bolt action. Wink

At the end of the day, it's entirely up to the individual. - But I do agree with 465 H&H - KISS IS best. Wink






 
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