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| Administrator |
Jagtip, May be some of our friends with personal experience in Africa can shed some light on this. My understanding is that bucksot has not got enough penetration on cats - I know, I am just as surprised as you are here! I was told of occasions where leopards have been shot with buckshot, and the pellets were found just under the skin or only half way into it. On one occasion I was told a leopard was shot from behind, and a buckshot pellet did not penetrate his tail! It is difficult to believe this, but my source was a very reliable PH. Slugs might be an answer for leopards, but apparently, those involved with lions stay away from shotguns and stick to their rifles. I have never been charged by either a leopard or a lion, but had lions that came very close to us. I can tell you, I was glad I had a rifle in my hand on those occasions, and not a shotgun. ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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| <jagtip> |
Saeed....Thank you for your response.I personally would prefer slugs to buckshot on any day of the week but was still surprised to hear of such dismal performance with buck shot.The distance that I'm thinking of would be within 15 paces or so from the muzzle.I've heard of many taking shots with buckshot where the range was ,in my opinion,excessive.Were the shots you're reporting up close?Was the ammo old?Thanks again. | ||
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| one of us |
If you get a bunch of PH's together and pose this scenario, you will end up in the middle of a gang fight..... Geo. Hoffman loves the shotgun, and has used it successfully for a decade or two, others can site instances where it caused them to be mauled... I prefer a rifle, but if I had a shotgun then I would want 00 buck and would shoot at 5 yards or off the end of the barrel where it is absolutely deadly... I have shot deer with the slug and it has never impressed me in the least, it kills for sure but it can be a little slow at times... ------------------ | |||
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| <Bjorn Klappe> |
Use the gun you are used to! If you know your rifle inside out, that is the gun to carry. Buckshot on lion or even leopard will not penetrate in most cases - you are commiting suicide. Slugs, yes but it makes a big hole in the skin. If you are uncertain or scared, stay out of it. It is the PH:s job to do a following up job. The more guns in the party the greater the risk of somebody being shot. Bjorn | ||
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One of Us |
Saeed - The last time I said that shotguns were less than effective as a follow up tool for cats, everyone jumped all over me for my comment. Unless you have been there, it is difficult to comprehend. There have been many reports of poor penetration of 00 buck on cats, however, I have yet to hear of any reports regarding poor penetration of a .375. Can shotguns be used? Yes they can, however, as Ray pointed out, you only get one shot with a shotgun and it better be close. It takes a cool PH to chase after a wounded cat with a shotgun. As distances increase, 00 buck quickly loses effectiveness. However, a rifle is effective at both close and far ranges. So my point is - Why fight with one hand tied behind your back? There ain�t much difference between a rifle and a shotgun three feet off the muzzle. When my bacon is on the line, I want my PH carrying a rifle - period. | |||
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| <Ol' Sarge> |
When I was in Alaska I ran onto a fella guiding some fishermen on a salmon stream famous for the number of grizzlies in the area. He was carrying a Rem 870 with 00 and slugs alternately. Did he make a pour choice for bear protection? ------------------ | ||
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| <Adirondack Joe> |
When you guys say that slugs are uneffective, are you refering to what we Upstate New Yorkers call "punkin' balls?" I have seen 2-3/4" foster-style slugs and their effectiveness, which is to say, unimpressive. I have also seen the mess made by Winchester Supremes with 385 grn partition gold slugs when they smack wet newsprint at 50 yds. That was somewhat more impressive. I have also seen a 300 grn bullet from a 45-70 do some nasty work on deer, and the new Hornady Heavy Mag H2K Slug load effectively duplicates that performance. This year, I am going to try out the 3" Rotweill Brenneke Golden Super Magnum in my slug gun on whitetails, and reports about that slug are very positive. I know that wet newsprint and whitetails are no true comparison for performance on big cats, but still, one would think that these have demonstrated the leap in performance that new-generation slugs offer. In fact, if I am not mistaken, when Mr. Brenneke designed the original brenneke slug around 100 years ago (give or take), he designed it with taking lions and bears in mind. My point is that I don't think one can use the poor performance record of foster style slugs and use that to pass judgement against slugs like: Winchester Partition Gold, Hornady Heavy Mag, Brenneke Golden Slug, Federal/Barnes Expander, Lightfield Commander, etc. If, however, the gentlemen made their comments based on experience with various slugs, then my assumptions about what you said were mistaken and I apologize for my jumping to conclusions. I have never hunted lions or leopards and I try not to give the impression that I am speaking from experience. If I come across that way, I again apologize. I am basing my statements from accounts in the field that I have read that come from credible sources and my own experiences with slug performance, which I will admit, is somewhat limited compared to the abundant hunting experience of others on this board. Somewhat lengthy for a disclaimer, isn't it? ------------------ | ||
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| <JK> |
With all do respect to those who say buckshot won't penetrate a cat in proper fashion, that could only be with shots taken at too great a distance at which a rifle would be called for anyway. However, if you were in some thick stuff, the range would be very close and buckshot would be the better choice especially if you had to shoot through some brush. Cats are not armour plated. | ||
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one of us |
I had the experience of following up a large wounded leopard at twilight on July 4, 1999. We had baited the leopard by "free-spooling" - leaving an impala on the ground in a likely area. When the cat took the bait we followed his tracks to where he had hidden the carcass. We secured the bait, built a blind, and came back that afternoon. He came in very cautiously at 4:50. He was very nervous and tried to drag his "kill" away to a more secure place. After several minutes, he stopped moving. He stood behind the bait, slightly quartering away, looking in our direction. I hit him on the point of the shoulder with a 300 gr FailSafe from my .375. The leopard jumped with all four feet off the ground, roared and ran off into thick bush, coughing and grunting as he went. We sat there for 10 minutes or so, listening and replaying the shot. My PH, Doug Reynolds, who has a fair amount of experience following wounded leopards, didn't seem all that concerned about having to go find the cat. We returned to the vehicle and exchanged our rifles for shotguns. He never considered taking his rifle. He did strap on a .44 magnum revolver in a shoulder holster. He told me he'd likely use the handgun only if the leopard jumped on him. We loaded the shotguns with 00 buck and put a couple spare rounds each in our pockets. At the bait we spread out, with two trackers and a gamescout a couple of steps ahead and Doug and I at the sides looking ahead. There wasn't a lot of blood, but enough to follow. We could see the leopard's path in the parted grass. After about 200 yards and nearly 30 minutes of slow tracking, we came to a large clump of grass and thorn bush where Doug was sure the leopard was laying up. We walked around the tangle and when we reached the other side. Doug motioned for everyone to stop and be quiet. After a couple of seconds, he grabbed me by the shoulder and pulled me next to him. He whispered, "He's there" pointing to the waist-high grass at the edge of the bush we'd circled. The range was about 15 feet. I couldn't see anything - no tail, no ears, no eyes. We raised our shotguns, aiming at the spot. The leopard came straight up out of that grass as if shot from a cannon. I'll never forget hearing his high pitched roar or seeing his wide-open mouth coming for me at waist level. We fired almost simultaneously and the leopard dropped at 8-10 feet. I stepped to my right to gain a better shot if necessary and the leopard came again. We both fired again, finally killing the leopard at three feet. One of the 00 pellets from Doug's shot penetrated his skull and brained him. I can say from this single experience that a shotgun worked because the shots were so close, but I was amazed at the tenacity the leopard displayed after being hit with two .12 GA charges of 00 buck. Penetration and shock was not on par with a rifle. However, shooting that leopard in that situation with anything other than a double rifle or shotgun would have qualified as trick shooting. I saw Doug in camp during my recent hunt in Zim and we talked about our experience. He still uses a shotgun for follow-up on leopards, but mentioned that he'd recently helped out on a follow-up with another PH carrying an FN-FAL. He thought the combination was perfect for covering all the bases for close up as well as for when a leopard presents a longer shot. When we examined my leopard, I found that my first shot had been too far forward, give his position. All I'd done is broken his shoulder. The FailSafe performed well, leaving a wide wound channel and good exit. The leopard probably would have bled out within a few hours. I was glad to have found him and to have had the experience. One time is plenty. | |||
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| <jagtip> |
Basically,my pondering on this issue has been inspired by my modest bank account's inability to afford a double rifle.With the prospect of moving back to Alaska (hopefully)in the not too distant future,I was wondering about a double 12 gauge,with perhaps brenke slugs for the thick stuff.Of course,a rifle always served me well there but I'm getting senile and my imagination is contemplating things which will probably not even happen such as the need for an instant follow up shot at extremely close range. | ||
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| one of us |
David- After your experience do you think slugs would have been more or less beneficial? | |||
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| Administrator |
Gentlemen, From what I understand, a few PH have used a shotgun on leoprads and were successful with it. Others have tried, and got mauled, so would not use one again. This is exactly like the discussions we have about using soft point bullets against premium bullet. A lot of the times, a soft will work, and produces spectacular kills. On other occasions it would fail miderably. ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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| one of us |
Buell, I think for both penetration and knock-down effect a slug would have been more effective. I've used them on hogs here in Texas and the wound channel a 12 ga slug produces is impressive. The shotguns worked, but like Ray said, anything much beyond the muzzle and even 00 buck loses effectiveness pretty fast. One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is that Doug had warned me in advance not to shoot too soon on seeing the cat or taking a charge. He said the thick grass would deflect the shot. All of this furthers the case for making the first shot count. | |||
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Moderator |
I've never used buckshot, only read about it but one thing everyone seems to agree on is that the maximum range for deer is about 30-35 yards. 100 feet is pretty poor for a maximum range to kill a whitetail, not to even think of something dangerous. Now slugs are something entirely different, there is a respectable amount of energy in those! One of the reasons I guess I've never used buckshot is that I don't see a reason to, as for anything that would need shot larger than 4 I'd be using slugs on I guess. Jagtip- I assume you'd want a double for the mystique, and that is cool too. I think that a Rem 870 or Mossberg 500 pump would be pretty much the best tool for using slugs against bears. Also, I'm not a big fan of Brennekes. Part of the reason for that is because I'm grumpy because I bought a bunch of them last year believing how well they were and have had poor experiences with them so far. They kill but out of 3 deer killed with them last year none penetrated totally through, one went through the ribs and was stopped by the skin on the far side. Accuracy in my gun is only fair, 5-6 inches at 100 yards compared to the copper solids I was shooting the year before that went about 1 1/2". I'm a big fan of those, except for the price they ask for a box..... | |||
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| <Peter V> |
Hi Folks, As you will by now have noted that there are two camps for use of shotguns on dangerous game; and as to be expected some of my colleagues and I have fundamentally different views on the subject. Many PH's who favour the use of shotguns are essentially motivated by the "view" that they can handle a shotgun better than a rifle in a tight spot (talking cats only /leopards specifically). The fast handling qualities coupled with a shot coloumn (maybe 2-4 inches at the ranges we are talking)that suits instinctive shooting make guys feel happier hence they advocate the use of shotguns. I carry a Remington 870 in my safari car, along with a mixed belt of Brennecke slugs and 00 buckshot. This pump is used for anti-poaching work only i.e. I carry it or give it to one of my staff when we investigate signs of poachers - it gives a bit of extra firepower (but is still no match for the AK's these guys often carry). I stick to a bolt rifle for all work - it was built to fit me like a shotgun which allows me to shoot it instinctively without worrying about sights when I need to use it very quickly. I for one don't believe in shotguns for follow up work - have a look at a lion / leopard skull and note the angle of the forehead, this contributes to "buckshot failure" assuming you hit it there given this is the end of the cat you will have to deal with. Some of my PH's have loaned my 870 when taking clients after leopard, none have yet to use it in a spot so the jury is still out in our camp. One of my pals who has ton's of experience with cats does not use a shotgun but sticks to a double 450 3 1/4 given his experiences of limited penetration of buckshot. One thing though, my 870 has sunk many "makoros" (canoes hewn out of Borrasus palm trees) the brennecke slugs whistle through both sides like butter while the 00 buck (3 inch / Winchester proiduct) will penetrate one side and then only if you are close enough. Leopards are softer than Makoro's but I'll stick to my rifle thank you very much - it works for me! ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
That is what I would have thought as well. Did the PH give any reason for choosing 00 buck over slugs? And given the choice would you use a shotgun again? Thanks, Buell | |||
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| <jagtip> |
Mark...In response to your suggestion that I only desire the double for it's mystique:I cannot correctly address that without stating something that may be perceived as boastful.This is not the case for it's a reflection on equipment much more than personal ability as I'm painfully aware of my limitations.....I can shoulder and fire two controlled accurately placed hits with a 12 bore double with heavy field loads in scarcely over a second.I simply cannot do that with a pump and I don't have the confidence in the reliability of an auto,particularly in sub freezing weather.The issue is one of ammo effectiveness against a large soft skinned animal during a charge.Range limitations with buckshot have been duly noted but it's importance would not seem to be a concern 10 feet from the muzzle.Naturally,one would try to obtain a better slug load than the common foster slug and I mention the brennke slug as a possible option for further experimentation and evaluation.Some recent advances in shotgun slug development at least advances some promise in this area.It is the speed quality of the double that appeals to me.And yes,I'll admit that I do find them esthetically appealing.If the double rifle were within my financial reach,the shotgun would not even be an issue that I would be exploring. | ||
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| <Bjorn Klappe> |
quote: JK, Some say a shotgun with SSg:s is effective at close range. I will not deny that, but if you fire at a charging lion at 2-3 yards the pure momentum and weight of his body will probably maul you badly. No person who is the target of a cat charge(especially lion) will wait until the animal is within touching distance. Make no mistake, a cat charge is a very fast and unpleasant affair. Bjorn | ||
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| <'Trapper'> |
I read this thread and I am just a bit puzzled by the continual references to "lack of penetration with buckshot." I make to claim to being an expert on buckshot - or anything else, for that matter - but the only dead grizzly I have seen on the ground had just been shot by an Alaskan game warden/state trooper and he used an 870 Remington with a 3" load of OO buckshot. I have never thought of a brown or grizzly being exactly thin skinned and one shot/one bear ain't exactly a bad record. The same trip I spoke with a bush pilot that operated three aircraft in and out of the wilderness and he was carrying a 44 Mag in a shoulder holster which he quickly told us was only for show and then pulled an old Browning A5 out of the cabin of his 'plane. "This is for real - each of my planes has one, magazine has four loads of OO. Best thing ever made for a bear defense gun." On the same subject I think a wild boar is the toughest thing on the face of the earth and I have hunted them several times in Turkey. The only gun any of the Turks ever used was a 12 gauge shotgun and they sure killed boar with them, using buckshot. Now are we going to say the lion and the leopard are that much more difficult than the bear? Is the ammo in Africa less effective than that used in Alaska or in Turkey? I know full well that the brown bear is several times larger than either the lion or the leopard and I believe the muscle mass on the bear is no less dense than the cats while the bear probably has several times tougher hide. Someone address this please as I would like to understand a bit more of why and how the shotgun failed. Cite some examples of exactly what happened and the circumstances under which they occurred. Also, I would like to know the type and brand of buckshot used if known. Shoot straight, shoot safe and shoot a lot! Best regards, ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
Some info on 12 guage buckshot as I have tested is as follows, through an open or modified choke which is customary with short barreled police type shotgun barrels the spread on OO buck is roughly 1" per yard of distance. Meaning an target at 25 yards will have circumference of hits roughly covering 25". Now considering what type of 12 guage OO buck you use it contains either 12 or 15 pellets of 33 caliber or roughly 1/3 of an inch. These pellets weigh approximately 70 grains, a total charge of 15 pellets would have a weight of 1050 grains which is a heavy load,unfortunately the lead is soft which hinders it penetration ability. The velocity of most OO buck is approximately 1350 FPS. Each pellet at this velocity would have an energy of roughly 210 ft/lbs (3150 for 15P) this figure drops off at 10 yds to around 180 ft/lbs (2700 for 15P). Now compare these energy figures to your favorite rifle. The reason a shotgun is considered deadly is because of this spread or pattern of shot when its fired which can destroy a considerable amount of flesh and bone provided sufficent pellets hit either a vital or structural area, suffice to say death comes as a result of lack of blood to the brain, therefor the more flesh you can disrupt the greater the lost of blood, also stuctural damage gives the additional time allowing for follow up shots. This brings up the need to look at the penetration and energy that is needed to kill or incapcitate whatever you shoot at. I have not seen any penetration tests on OO buck. Now if you could get a source of extremely hard lead and load up some custom OO buck which would increase its penetration it may be a more reliable stopper when the S... hits the fan. [This message has been edited by raamw (edited 11-15-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
Actually the reason a buck shot charge is deadly is because of the number of consecutive hits and the body does not have time to cope between hits and shock sets in or so I have been told by medical experts. I do know that beyond say 10 yds. the pellets may fail on the heavy muscles of a Lion or even a Leopard I have been told, but off the end of the barrel I know the shotgun is a very, very deadly round indeed. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Having no experience on leopard with buckshot let me add my 2 cents worth. It's my uderstanding that the problem with buckshot is that it's too soft and flattens on impact with an animal like a leopard and if you are sustaining a "frontal" assualt you are going to need some penetration and soft shot won't do it. I would expect something like nickel-plated or even copper-plated shot would do a better job and I would prefer 000 rather than 00 buckshot...I also wonder how the bigger sizes of steel shot would do..I know it would penetrate. What we need now is a volunteer....some old-timer with a lot of experience. Someone who, while they may not be "over-the-hill", can at least see the top. Someone with a keen eye and steady nerves. | |||
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| <perrydog> |
One of the most entertaining and humbling experiences I have had was to get some formal "bear defense" training. During one portion we fired 12 gauge slugs at a moving target...moving towards the shooter. The set up took three people- the shooter, the 4 wheeler driver and the "range master/safety officer". We had a full sized bear target that started at 30 yards. The target was mounted on a wooden sled, the sled attached to the 4 wheeler. The safety officer stood with his hand on your shoulder, and made sure that you keep pointed downrange. on the word go, the four wheeler took off as fast as it could go pulling the sled such that it would miss you by a few feet to the right. Like I said, humbling. With a 870 pump most of us were able to get two aimed shots into the bears vitals. Every one of us that attempted three did not get three into the vitals...sometimes with that rapid of fire you missed completely! The guys with large handguns were hilarious....only one of them was able to get two into the vitals. I did not time how many seconds it took for the target to reach you, but it was not as quick as a bear.... For a 30 yard dash I assume a leopard would beat out a bear and a lion...but let me assure you a bear is @#%^$# fast. They used to do this by dragging the rope in by hand but it was way too slow. I know some people that have shot bears with various slugs/buckshot/etc. Their choice are the brenneke's. I would assume that the all copper fed and rem slugs would be okay and the winchester 385gr partition(50 cal?) also good. I think penetration would be the key on a charging bear, with thick hide, large bones and alot of muscle to stop a shot that is not a broadside. a head shot is not advised as the sloping forehead may simply deflect the slug and not allow it to penetrate. For me, in alaska, a 12 gauge is what I carry. I shoot this gun 90% of the time between waterfowl and upland birds. If I wanted to carry anything "more" would at least step up to a 338win or a 375HH. I don't think I need to repeat why you don't need a front sight on a handgun Phil | ||
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| <rwj> |
I agree with Perrydog and some of the others regarding the use of a shotgun here in Alaska...I took a similar bear-defense training course some time back. Everyone brings their own shotgun and most had 870s. I have two that I carry for different reasons (bears and birds)but I prefer an autoloader with a short barrel (Browning or Bennelli)and slugs. This type of defense is designed for inside 25 yards. Having never faced a charge, it is hard to say what is best. I think my .378 or .416 is probably the best medicine. If you have to wait for the animal to get close enough for the gun to be effective, it might be too late, and I bet that is true with any bear or any African cat. In that class I mentioned, there are lots of people who did not come close to properly handling their shotgun under pressure (make sure it is loaded, take the safety off, hit the target more than once, reload). | ||
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| <JK> |
I did say that a shotgun was only best at very close range and in thick brush which Africa has plenty of. It doesn't matter how angled a cat's skull is(all predator skulls have that same angle), buckshot will not glance off but will penetrate a reasonable distance. For follow-up in the dark it would just makes sense for a PH to have a tracker carry one of those million candle-power spotlights so you can see the cat(hide or eye glow). I hunt hogs at night alot and that's what I use to follow the blood trail in the dark. | ||
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| <jagtip> |
Perry dog & RWJ.....Even though the focus on this thread is about shotgun ammo effectiveness,your posts bear witness to my reasoning for a double during a close range charge......I've spent a lot of time in the Alaskan bush and have seen first hand the explosive speed of a bear. | ||
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| one of us |
I presume leopards don't operate in areas utterly devoid of buffalo, elephant, lion, rhino etc? May I also respectfully ask why people don't wait a little longer before following up wounded cats, like a couple of hours? Maybe the answer is to make sure the hide etc doesn't get eaten to which I would counter that I value my own hide enough that I'll risk the rug... Also what is the etiquette on following up dangerous game. If you believe you would be a hinderance ie you've never shot at charging animals etc is it best to stay behind or what? | |||
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| Administrator |
1894, This is my own assumption. If the leoprad is shot and wounded in the evening, then I would imagine it would be left until the next morning for it to be followed. If it is shot in the morning, then as soon as it is light enough - may be an hour later, then it would be followed. I would follow whatever instructions the PH has to say on whether to accompany him or not. I have followed wounded buffalo, but luckily not lion or leopards. The only time we thought a lion was wounded, my PH did not say anything, so we walked side by side. The lion was shot in a valley, and we were above him. We could see quite a lot of blood, and the lion took quite a bit of time snarling, but hidden from our view. Then everything went quiet. It was very rocky where he went, so we had our eyes peeled for any movement. We passed less than 3 yards from him, and did not see him!? Fortunately, he was stone dead. ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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| One of Us |
1894 - You are correct - a dead animal will not last long in the bush. It is better to follow up on a wounded animal if you have any hopes of preserving the skin. In regards to the client participating in the follow up excitement, as Saeed stated, this is the decision of the PH. There have been a few instances of folks getting shot in the heat of the moment. Personally, I have shot four leopards. Three stone dead and one was a follow up. Wandering around with flashlights at night looking for a wounded cat is intense to say the least. Leopards seem to be able to hide behind even the smallest blade of grass and can come out of anywhere. This usually occurs with lots of scratching and biting and screaming and yelling. If it is any comfort, very few people have ever died as a result of a leopard attack. They usually tear your head up a little and bite your arms a little. The real danger is infection which can kill you if you don�t get medical attention quickly. Lions on the other hand can and do kill humans. | |||
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| one of us |
A left overnight Leopard becomes Hyena bait and during the day you can find a dead one pretty quick by the vultures. We follow up pretty quick on ours.. Someone always has a shotty gun, and someone allways has a rifle. Just makes good since. ------------------ | |||
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| <hd352802> |
Gentlemen, I would not like to be the animal that is encountered at close range with buckshot, whatever it is, the shot makes big holes. Hugh. | ||
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| one of us |
1894...I made one shot that wasn't right where I wanted it to go on my last trip to Zim and it was on my leopard...the shot went a little high and the sight of the leopard landing on it's feet and the sound of it running off into the short grass snarling is something I won't forget for a long, long time. It was dusk and getting darker by the moment...the PH and Game Scout quickly took off for a look and when they came back a few minutes later I had my boots on, my jacket zipped up and had my ShurFire light taped to my gun barrel hoping I wouldn't be left behind. After a brief war council during which the PH explained the plan we step off. I had my .375 with a 1.5x6 scope set at 2x and he had his .416 with the scope removed. After about 10 minutes of folowing the blood trail thru the relatively short grass (ankle to mid-calf height) we noticed what looked like a small white bird on a small bush about 15-20 yards in front of us...it was the tip of the leoaprd's tail twitching. After some hand signals the Scout threw a rock which landed just off to my right and the leopard came out a bit off line giving me a chance to put a 300gr Nosler into his chest as he pivoted toward us...the shot completely penetrated the leopard and exited just right of the base of the tail. Turned the cat completely around and it landed dead facing the other way. My first shot, taken while the cat was in the tree, would have been fatal but the area had a lot of hyaena and I didn't want them to get my trophy. I don't know how I would have felt if the PH hadn't come back for me to go in after the leopard with him and I'm glad I didn't have to sit in the blind while someone else finished something I had started badly. | |||
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| one of us |
Hoffman, I know your reading this and seething, as I also know you have knocked the bejesus out of many a cat with a shoty gun, but I have defended your baby about all I can by myself  or is just too disgusting to contribute?? ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
African Hunter (then Zimbabwe Hunter) ran an article about this several years ago and while they really didn't take a position they did mention that each year there was an award for bravery given to safari staff, ie trackers, etc but not PHs, and that almost every year it was won by a tracker pulling a wounded leopard off a PH who was doing the follow-up with a shotgun. Even with this I still think I would prefer a short-barreled Model 870 with 000 nickel-plated shot. | |||
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| <Ol' Sarge> |
Perrydog, I'd love to try that bear/fourwheeler thing - betcha I could hit it. I use a S&W 3000 pump as my everything shotgun. DB, I ain't even close to the crest of the hill, but I'd be willin' to try some big steel. At close range they really penetrate. Wanna pay for my trip? ------------------ [This message has been edited by Ol' Sarge (edited 11-17-2001).] | ||
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| one of us |
Sarge...I was hoping someone expendable would volunteer. | |||
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one of us |
Sarge, Trapper: I scarcely dare pipe up on this thread because my experience in griz land is limited to four days of fishing on a creek on the Stikine River out of Wrangell. I took a 5-inch stainless Redhawk .44 Magnum loaded with 320-grain hard-cast flat points at hand-stinging velocities. According to the gun magazines, I was being very clever. The guide didn't say anything, but his father-in-law, a fine Tlingkit gentleman who apparently took a shine to me, got a big grin on his face and advised me in fatherly tones that if I had to shoot a bear, I should empty the cylinder into it, throw the gun at it, and run like hell. :-) The guide left our party with the real bear medicine, a Mossberg 12-gauge riot gun with buck and slugs alternating. The fishing was fabulous, with salmon literally swimming between out feet. But the fact that the banks were crisscrossed with platter-size bear paw prints and half-eaten chums, and the thick willow banks were often only a few feet away made me realize the wonderful beauty of the 12-gauge shotgun. Any confrontation would have started and ended in seconds. I'm just glad we never had to use it. By the way, the residents in that country take a dog as their first line of bear defense. The barking gives you a chance to get the kids behind you while you get the shotgun to port arms. | |||
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| one of us |
On buckshot pellets, A 33 cal ball has a BC in the hundredths.Even if started at 1300fps it drops back to 1000fps or so(speed of sound?) in a matter of yards, where it maintains speed a lot better.I've wondered in a shot column moving through the air does the buckshot maintain higher velocity for a while, than a single projectile would? Some buckshot loads start this slow anyway in the heaviest shot charges. I know that inexperinced people can run into problems at close ranges simply because they point badly.They have a shotgun>point in general direction>expect results. Karl. [This message has been edited by Karl (edited 11-19-2001).] | |||
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Karl, I believe a group of shot traveling through the air creates a tremendous amount of turbulence in and around the shot column which would be detrimental to its ability to maintain velocity. I have never had the courage to test buck shot through my chronograph much beyond 3 yards. As I stated in my earlier statement a shotgun is extremely deadly at close range due to the tremendous amount of damage to flesh it is capable of doing provided sufficient pellets hit the target in the right area (vital or structural) and that the load is of sufficient power to incapacitate or kill the animal, ie: OO buck no matter how close you are is not going to work on an elephant or hippo. I have seen deer killed relatively quickly at 35 yards but this is a rare occurrence since only one or two pellets are all you can count on and you have to be lucky for one of them to hit a vital organ, keep in mind the individual energy each pellets carries with it is very low probably not much more than a 22LR, again if you were to hit a rabbit at that distance.... good night Lucy, a buffalo...fat chance. I believe OO Buck for deer size game is used extensively in the southern states were they hunt deer in areas of heavy foliage so shots are fairly close and fast. Keep in mind death comes as a results of lack of oxygenated blood to the brain, you need the power and the penetration to get to the vitals were the highest concentration of blood flows occurs. | |||
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