Well, for a long time I have been wondering, whyt is it that all the animals I hunted all the years with NON PREMIUM BULLETS still died ?

Did no one tell them that if it was'nt the SUPER COPPERCOATED EXTRA LUBRICATED COBRA SPIT POLISHED BULLET, that they will not die ?

Come on people, Bullet placement is more cardinal that quality of bullet , surely ?

How many animals in the world have been killed by the old Peters softs , or PMP softs ?

Dangerous Game, yes, I will vouch for premium bullets, just if it for cost of the animals alone, but I just last year , shot a bunch of hippo with Hornady Softs, anf you know what , they all died with one shot, and Oh yeah they were all shoulder shots, why did I do it ?

Because I can

Premium bullets come into their own when one actually hunts animals that are free roaming.

Now, before anyone starts screaming, I have enjoyed hunting in South Africa behind fences, and will likely do so again.

But, if one does not get a good shot angle at an animal, it is not such a big deal. As you are more likely to see that same animal later in the day or the next day.

Now, if one is hunting in Zimbabwe or Tanzani, where one is likely to be on foot following it, and the only chance one gets is a shot at the rear end, I sure do not want one of those Peters or PMP soft point bullets.

I would want to have something like a Barnes X or GS Custom.

I would imagine that a lot of the animals that I have shot, have NOT been shot in the shoulder.

And that is only possible with premium bullets that can penetrate very deep.

Saeed is quite correct in his general attitude. A real trophy or sport hunter wants to take out that insurance of being able to take a quartering away shot at a "once in a lifetime trophy". Makes really little difference if it is behind a decent sized fenced enclosure or in Tanzania.

Me, by very far the most animals I have killed with a soft lead bullet. Yup. You guessed it, a .22LR. I've shot scores of springbuck, blesbuck, and zillions of hyrax with a .22LR. Springuck and blesbuck mostly brain shots, but a good "behind the shoulder" shot gets then down just a few yards more running than a much larger calibre. Biggest I've shot with a .22LR was , besides many slaughter animals, a monster of a bushpig sow. That one took two shots though.

Another rifle that I shot many animals quite dead with was a .458 WM loaded with, as Kwan calls it crap = 405 grains gas checked casts @ 1800 ft/sec. Never onece had any problem killing impala, warthog, blesbuck and dozens of hyrax with it.

What I have not said is that these are super calibers but what one must remember is that the velocity and bullet construction matched! My 405 grain .458's would probably totally fail if launched at 2800+ ft/sec from a .460 Weatherby Mag. Yet at moderate velocity they were real killers. Need I say that the particular .458 with that load was consistently capable of 1/2" groups at 100 yards? Similarly my .22LR is an Anschutz - scary accurate. Do I know where to place the bullet? You bet! Do I know the limitations and have the self control to stick within the bullet + my own shot placement capabilities? Yes, I think I've wounded more animals with "overkill" for the job on hand calibres than when I knew that I was perhaps a bit under gunned!

What do I do now that I'm mature? Use 200 grain Swift A frames in my .300 Weatherby Mag and 150 grain Nostler partitions in my .308 for back-up on plains game hunting. Here, even more so than for a trophy hunter, you really can never select your shot: Client wounds = you shoot ASAP! These loads are also used for my own limited plains game hunting. Yes, a much less costly bullet will also get the job done, but I just cannot be bothered with two loads and possible telescope adjustment between using a quality load as backup and a 'good enough' PMP bullet for my own hunting.

But Kwan is 100% correct in saying that what is generally considered a crappy bullet, if properly placed, will do the job. I'll just add the caveat that it must not be launched to fast!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

FINALLY a positive thready about crappy bullets.

As for penetration from nonpremium bullets concerned, a .224 caliber Speer 70 gr. Semi-Spitzer clear through broadside on a deer at 360 yards is OK. Also OK is a deer shot in the rear of the left leg with a Berger 115 gr. .257 caliber VLD which died pretty fast.

One has to consider MV as well...a bullet that is crappy in a 300 Wby can work perfectly in a 308. And vice versa... I found that out the hard way.

I don't see any reason besides a fool's economy to use anything but the most suitable bullet when hunting. For me that will only occasionally be a Rem CoreLoct, never a Power point or a Hi Shok. There are a lot of great bullets out there these days.

Of course shot placement is first and foremost. But, as hunters, we are obligated to dispatch the animal as quickly and humanely as possible. If a crappy bullet kills most of the time and a premium bullet maybe makes up for a bit of an errant shot, why would anyone not want to use the best tool for the job? A bullet is such a small fraction of the total price of a hunt that it should be a non-issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Premium bullets come into their own when one actually hunts animals that are free roaming.

Now, before anyone starts screaming, I have enjoyed hunting in South Africa behind fences, and will likely do so again.

But, if one does not get a good shot angle at an animal, it is not such a big deal. As you are more likely to see that same animal later in the day or the next day.

Now, if one is hunting in Zimbabwe or Tanzani, where one is likely to be on foot following it, and the only chance one gets is a shot at the rear end, I sure do not want one of those Peters or PMP soft point bullets.

I would want to have something like a Barnes X or GS Custom.

I would imagine that a lot of the animals that I have shot, have NOT been shot in the shoulder.

And that is only possible with premium bullets that can penetrate very deep.

That is true, but only when talking about what would have been a marginal caliber for the game. The old remedy, before the invention of premium bullets, was to use a bigger gun.

Now, we don't need to. Because the light rifle with premium bullets can handle a wider range of game that earlier would have been better handled with the medium or heavy rifle.

I have no doubt that a 30-06 or 338 Win Mag with a heavy-for-caliber premium bullet is enough for Eland. But I also have no doubt that a 416 Rigby with a circa 1911 copper-clad lead bullet is also.

I don't believe that all "premium" bullets are an improvement over tried and true older bullets. For instance, I have taken 21 species of North American game and 5 species of African game. Many were large animals: elk, caribou, moose, bears, sheep, goats, gemsbuck, zebra. Several were dangerous: Grizzly, Brown Bear, Leopard. I have been hunting for 43 years with Remington Core-Lokts and don't intend to change.
That is not false economy, they work and work well and my rifles love them.
However, this year I will be hunting Cape Buffalo and tuskless and intend to use a tuff "premium" bullet.

PS: All were free roaming and although I have shot many deer, none were behind high fence and I have never hunted with the aid of a feeder.

Guys and Gals,

Do not get me wrong, I also advise using good quality, but of late here in South Africa, and elsewhere I have seen all and sundry claiming that you can not hunt ESPECIALLY plainsgame with anything but a !#@#$ bullet,

I feel too much is made of the bullet and the new whizbang calibre instead of the nut that holds the gun,

You know it, and will admit too it as well

How many compensate for lack of shooting capabiltiies with the best bullet money can buy, cause that will make up for the fact that he is in fact a crappy hunter, and then can shoot from any angle cause the missile will make up for it == PLEASE

Since it is the bullet that does all the work, why not use a bullet that will work from ANY angle, under ANY condition.

quote:

Do not get me wrong, I also advise using good quality, but of late here in South Africa, and elsewhere I have seen all and sundry claiming that you can not hunt ESPECIALLY plainsgame with anything but a !#@#$ bullet,

The SA bullet wars are heating up again...

The original sin is in dividing bullets on "premium" and "old crap" - in my book there are exploding bullets and solid bullets with anything in between - I guess they all have their place in time somewhere, however traveling half way around the world, spending thousands - hanging it all on that 200gr piece of metal at the end - I get nervously superstitious and a firm believer in Mr. Murphy while somebody is making money out of it - so be it

I have used brittle PMP's in Namibia - would I use them again? - sure - as long as there is nothing better around - but as long as there is...

I have posted before on my old 300 grain silvertips in my 375 H&H. I was thinking of posting photos of recovered bullets but there is no point and I do not care even if there was a point. I disagree with this whole free range then premium bullet or only premium for "dangerous game" etc.

I do imagine that they give comfort to PHs who are saddled with bad shots (a large % from what I am told).

I missed a lord derby eland this past december. If I had only been using whatever the current rage in premo bullets is pehaps I would have got that smaller eland. Damn it?

The cheapest safari I can find costs maybe $12,000 by the time I include getting the trophies mounted. I fire maybe 12 bullets on the trip, counting sighters, and the total cost in premium bullets is about $6.00 more than cup-and-cores.

Do the math.

The extra cost of the premium bullets is 0.05 percent. I don't understnd why anyone would even think twice about using better bullets.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kwan:
hippo with Hornady Softs, anf you know what , they all died with one shot,

Kwan are you talking about the hornady interlocks ? I have used them in my 375 and 308 with great success. 3 weeks ago we did culling and i shot a 180gr 308 hornady interlocks i did not see the thick branch about 75mm infront of the kudu,s shoulder i was surprised to see the "crappy bullet" went through the tree and through the vitals.

the secret with them is to keep them below 2400feet/sec

308 = 2360feet/sec
375 = 2410feet/sec

we shot a buff today with hornady interlocks
1 bullet = 1 buff

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Do not get me wrong, I also advise using good quality, but of late here in South Africa, and elsewhere I have seen all and sundry claiming that you can not hunt ESPECIALLY plainsgame with anything but a !#@#$ bullet,

The SA bullet wars are heating up again...

Wait until 375 fanatic gets his 180grain Lapua Naturalis projs.....the bullet wars will be over for HIM

For me, premium means bonded and more often than not A-Frames.

You guys use whatever you want.....but when I shell out thousands on a hunt, I use the best I can get....and yes....it usually costs me an extra $50 for this.

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Do not get me wrong, I also advise using good quality, but of late here in South Africa, and elsewhere I have seen all and sundry claiming that you can not hunt ESPECIALLY plainsgame with anything but a !#@#$ bullet,

The SA bullet wars are heating up again...

Wait until 375 fanatic gets his 180grain Lapua Naturalis projs.....the bullet wars will be over for HIM

Pop-Gun bullets for shooting soda cans and varmints. Proper bullets come two to the pound ...