I have never seen this but I have heard of it from several people. The Swift Aframes above .375 diameter do not have a complete partition, they have a hole through the center, or maybe it's better described as an incomplete partiton. I have not taken one apart but this I have been told.

Because the rear half of the Aframes are not bonded, only the front half is there have been reports of the lead squirting out the back of the jacket, or the mushroom buckling the incomplete partition with high impact velocity.

Can anyone confirm or clear these thoughts up? I have seen quite a few .458 Aframes recovered from Game and every single one has been perfect. Including elephants at close range. If there is an issue with excess velocity where would that level be in your opinion? What would be the optimum impact velocity for the Aframe design if in fact the above designs are true.

The ones I have seen probably had impact velocities in the area of 1800-2200fps from the 458 win mag and the Lott. Maybe the issue is for guns of the 460 weatherby velocity level?

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It seems there is never enough time to do things right, but always enough time to do them over

While hunting buffalow in Tanzania our PH shot a 500 grains A-frame from his .458 Lott into the skull of a buffalow as a finish off shot at two or three yards. the bullet was recovered in the neck.

The bullet suffered from the "partition"-syndrome. The front lead was gone - not completly like on a Nosler partition. But almost. I guees that it has been torn off by hitting the hard skull!?

But I can't see thet there should be a hole in the partiton wall as you have heard.

I see no need to dislike the A-frame after this insident.

Hope this help a little?

Mads

If you have one handy you could find out the answer with a hacksaw or a drumel cutoff disk.

I have a sectioned 450 gr .458" A-frame at home and the partition is soild, no hole or gap in it.
A-frames appear to be designed with a thinner rear jacket so that upon impact, the rear core & jacket will bulge out a little bit and help support the front core from over expanding.

[This message has been edited by DaveC (edited 04-11-2002).]

Last season, I shot a buffalo four times using Swift A-Frames from my .458 Lott. The range was approximately 15 yards on the first shot no more than 25 yards on the following two shots, then about 3 yards on a finishing shot. Muzzle velocity was around 2300 fps. I recovered all four bullets. All were perfectly mushroomed, retaining most of the front-end lead, and all displayed the characteristic A-Frame bulge above the base. There was no evidence of separation or leakage of lead from the base. I've never sectioned one of the bullets so I don't know about the gap in the partition. Either way, I was satisfied with their performance.

Hi JJHACK,
I shot a Buffalo at point blank range with a 500 grain .475 Swift A-Frame and the bullet was perfect. The velocity was 2500 fps.

470 Mbogo

Hi Jim,

I have used Hornday, Speer and Swift A Frames, all 500grs in my Lott. I have not had one bullet failure so to speak from the above, the best performing soft(IMHO)is the A-frame, solid votes goes to Speer AGS.

As for bullet's failing, I once spined a buffalo at about 15 yards using a hornady soft while on my knees(one of those load what you got situations) the buffalo expired and the bullet was recovered way down the animal's carcass. It was still in one piece but severely out of shape and the lead core rattled around in it's jacket, which is to be expected at that range and after taking the spine apart...I'm sure that a A-frame would have done a better job.

Question remains wrt to the Hornday; at which stage in the animal's death did the bullet fail

Regards

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Peter

"Walk softly and carry a big bore"

JJHACK,
I had a similiar experience to what you described but with a .30 caliber bullet.
Shot a Nilgai at 68 yards through the shoulder, 180 grain Swift A-Frame traveling at 2800 fps.
Recovered 117 grains of copper. The front lead was gone, the jacket peeled back to the base and all the lead from the base was gone.
Gave the bullet to the Swift Rep at the Dallas SCI and he gave me a box of bullets.

Fair trade !!!!!

Jeff

I spoke with a Swift Employee today who works on the line that makes the bullets. The Partition in the bullet is infact a single solid piece made with the jacket. The front half of the bullet is manufactured and bonded first and the rear section of the bullet is pressed in and then the base is formed around it.

The BC for the 450 grain is .323 and the 500 grian BC is .361 Optimum muzzle velocity is from 2000 to 2500 fps. Expansion is very good down to the 1600-1700 fps level.

There you have it right from Swift! They have a new brochure with all the BC's listed for every bullet out now too.

When are they going to finish their webpage!! it's the year 2002 for goodness sake!!!!

Mike

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Victory through superior firepower!

JJ I have been fortunate to be allowed to shoot my friends 416, that has 350 grain Swifts loaded in Remington ammo. So far all the bullets we have recovered from targets
(2 inch oak board, a piece of 8 gauge steel plate, 2 phone books soaked in oil, several 5/8 plywood boards backed up and a large plastic gas tank from a boat, filled with water.) have a perfect mushroom look to them and very little loss of weight. We are going to shoot some 400 grains next week. I can't see why the .458 cal. 500 grain bullets would be made any different.

Just looking over some old stuff and noticed this thread. I can guarentee they are ALL ALIKE Lee Reed has let me hang around when the presses are running and even watch the "secret" stuff and all Swift A-Frames are alike. In fact I have a sectioned one that was taken from a bin, at random, and 1/3 section was cut out, to the center and there is nothing but a SOLID partition. Feel safe in using them, Lee has one grade of bullet, THE BEST or they don't leave the plant. "Z" P.S. the sectioned bullet is a 500 grain .458 A-Frame. "Z"

JJ,

The 450 Swift 458 at 2450 fps blew off front mushroom about one hapf of the time at point blank range in my 5 gallon nylon water buclets.

This is a bit tougher on a bullet than a Kafer Africanus based on G. Hoffmans recovered 416 swifts which I have tested alot.

So the swift reps told you right about velocity range.

I dont think this makes it a premium bullet since it does have a velocity threshold you have to avoid but Id use it without doubt in facotry remington safari 458 winchester 2250 fps).

for the lott, ackley, 460 GA, Id take the 500 gr even though I prefer ligher bullet wieghts.

About 90 caliber expanded.

Andy

450 "X" - Molycoated. You have "THE" load.
Trade those others off and go huntin'!

Nick,

Do you moly coat yours or are they making them now moly (blue) coated???

I like the 450 gr Barnes X more than the 400 or 500 gr too.

At point blank they end up square rather than round like the 400 gr, and do not tumble like the 500 gr and break off the X wings.

At 100 yds they held together in my 5 gallon nylon buckets.

Not as reliable as the 450 Kodiak but the best of the Barnes I thouhgt.I would hunt with them and probably will.

Andy

Andy,
I'm using the "Midway" products, in a dedicated tumbler. 30 minutes. The 450's were not available for a time and I think Barnes was going to drop them. They can still be hard to find and I doubt we'll see them in "XLC" form. I find that with the molycoating and the "Bore Prep" product, the groups are tight without the usual fouling shots. As you say, I have recovered 4 "square" 450 bullets that weigh from 439 to 449 grains. I believe petal loss starts to diminish with the .458 caliber and up, due to the greater mass, per petal.

Nick,

thanks for advice on the 450 Barnes X.

I found several hundred of them and will try the moly coat when I get my 458 x 404 back from gunsmith.

I was getting about 2450 fps in my short 21 1/2 inch barrel.

Andy