Just wondering what you blokes opinions would be on what would be more effective.

A 338-378 shooting 275 grain A Frames or a 375H&H shooting similar bullets in 300 grains?

Leaving out the question of ammo availabilty, assuming it was the one and the same.

.375 H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Blair D Calvin:
Just wondering what you blokes opinions would be on what would be more effective.

A 338-378 shooting 275 grain A Frames or a 375H&H shooting similar bullets in 300 grains?

Leaving out the question of ammo availabilty, assuming it was the one and the same.

H&H. Save the high velocity cartridges for varmints.

The ultra high velocity of the .338/378 would just make the likelihood of poor bullet performance tougher yet. I would without a doubt choose the .375.

To be a bit evasive.....if legal and the 250 Swift A-Frame was used I'd like to use a 338-06 as I'm thinking it's as good as a 9.3 X 62 and that round has sound backing here.

The old 375 H&H is still the one by which we judge others isn't it?

Faster is not better for this job. Go with the .375 H&H and 300 grain premium bullets.

Open the neck on that Wby to .458dia and then you'll have a buffalo gun.
In this case, the larger diameter bullet is preferable to extra recoil and more speed.

.375 H&H. By the way, Kevin Robertson's newest book on Hunting Cape Buffalo is quite good. I see where he gives some credit in his book to .500 grains for rounding up some of the harder to find rounds and cases for Robertson and his wife to photograph and to use in the book.

The 338 Win Mag with a 225 Barnes Tripple Shock took a good Buff for me(I was hunting Kongoni). The first shot was a quartering to with the bullet placement just inside the point of the shoulder, it penetrated across the top of the heart and one lung ending up just under the skin behind the off shoulder after breaking a rib. The insurance shot was through the backbone and lodged in the brisket. The animal ran about 60 yards. The next buff was shot with a 416 Rem Mag and there was a considerable difference with the animal piling up within 40 yards and going down quicker.
I think your 338 would probably do the job but I would pick the 375. I had a good standing shot and was lucky that the animal didn't get wound up. The higher velocity of your 338 might work against bullet penetration but not having used that load I couldn't say for sure.

quote:

Open the neck on that Wby to .458dia and then you'll have a buffalo gun.

John,

Because he is miserable with his money and will want to borrow one of my 460s

I had to work my arse off just to get him up to the 338/378

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
Open the neck on that Wby to .458dia and then you'll have a buffalo gun.
In this case, the larger diameter bullet is preferable to extra recoil and more speed.

Fair enough John. I've never hunted Cape Buff' as I can't see the value unless you shoot them like Saeed does

Everyone who replied:

I appreciate your comments and would tend to agree that the 375H&H is the better caliber for Buffalo.

Though the 338/378 is not really going much faster than Saeed's 375/404 when it is loaded with the 275 grain bullet.

And the 275 grain Swift has a SD of 338! Or do you believe the extra frontal area is more of an advantage than the higher SD?

Blair.

quote:

H&H. Save the high velocity cartridges for varmints.

Absolutely correct, 500grains.
Technically, the .338 would be legal in Namibia for buffalo, as the only rewquirement is 5400Joules of energy, which is about 3980 ft-lbs, but still a unwise choice. The normal .3338 and a .338-06 would be a better choice, or if stuck with the mentioned 338-378, use a 300gr premuim bullet, and download it to 2400-2500 ft/sec, if you absolutely must.

Karl S,

The other thought I had was loading the 300 grain Woodleigh, though I prefer the design of the A-Frame, as it has a mechancial stop to it's expansion.

Is there any other premium in 300 grains in 338?

Thanks,

Blair.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Open the neck on that Wby to .458dia and then you'll have a buffalo gun.

John,

Because he is miserable with his money and will want to borrow one of my 460s

I had to work my arse off just to get him up to the 338/378

Mike

Mike, that's nasty. I'm not completely miserable with my money

When are you going to make it to Africa, you roo shooting bastard?

PS: I MIGHT borrow that 460

When you organise the proper sleeping tablets so I can deal with the plane trip

That's easy. For such a tough bastard, I've never met anyone who is more scared of flying.

What rifles and bullets are we using?

I'm just a miserable bastard, who is using his broken down 338/378 Accumark

Well since it is a learning experience I can't
see any point in using was is recommended

quote:

The other thought I had was loading the 300 grain Woodleigh, though I prefer the design of the A-Frame, as it has a mechancial stop to it's expansion.

Is there any other premium in 300 grains in 338?

Blair DC, not that I know of. I too think the Swift A-Frame is better, even though slightly lighter, just thought there might be a super premuim bullet available in the US/ Australia. I do know that Rhino will make you one, if you order 200, I think, as he makes me 550gr .458 bullets. The point I am trying to make is: reduce the velocity, even if you use a 300gr.

I am a just wondering and trying to think...at the same time

A 275 grain 338 has the same SD as a 339 grain 375.

We all know Saeed has shot 2 or 3 buffalo with a 300 grain 375 at 2700 plus.

How many buffalo would you need to shoot to see the difference between Saeed's 300 grainers at 2700 plus and the higher SD 275 grain 338s loaded to 2800 or so for low pressure.

I think Blair wants to combine the long range baboon rifle with the buffalo rifle. He has the loads for the lighter and heavier bullets and the scope and mount set up to change.

Mike

I thinl Allen Day shot two buffalo (and maybe a lion???) with 300 Winchester and 180 grain Failsafes.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I am a just wondering and trying to think...at the same time

A 275 grain 338 has the same SD as a 339 grain 375.

We all know Saeed has shot 2 or 3 buffalo with a 300 grain 375 at 2700 plus.

How many buffalo would you need to shoot to see the difference between Saeed's 300 grainers at 2700 plus and the higher SD 275 grain 338s loaded to 2800 or so for low pressure.

I think Blair wants to combine the long range baboon rifle with the buffalo rifle. He has the loads for the lighter and heavier bullets and the scope and mount set up to change.

Mike

Spot on Mike.

It does combine the best of both worlds, flat trajectory and heavy bullets with good SD.

Though the 250 grain might be too light and too fast for Buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:


We all know Saeed has shot 2 or 3 buffalo with a 300 grain 375 at 2700 plus.

Ask him if he thinks the added velocity give any better performance on buffalo.

Also, I think you are ignoring the advantages of larger bore diameter. Small bore advocates will tell you that a larger bore diameter is irrelevant, but I note that none of them are shooting buffalo with a .223.

Dan,

I can't comment on whether Saeed feels the added velocity was beneficial in his dispatching of many buffalo to greener pastures.

As to small bores on Buffalo, many of our pro' shooters in the NT just use a 308 on our water buffalo.

Blair.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

The other thought I had was loading the 300 grain Woodleigh, though I prefer the design of the A-Frame, as it has a mechancial stop to it's expansion.

Is there any other premium in 300 grains in 338?

Blair DC, not that I know of. I too think the Swift A-Frame is better, even though slightly lighter, just thought there might be a super premuim bullet available in the US/ Australia. I do know that Rhino will make you one, if you order 200, I think, as he makes me 550gr .458 bullets. The point I am trying to make is: reduce the velocity, even if you use a 300gr.

Karl,

Thank you for the information on the Rhinos.

And for taking the trouble to express your opinion and offer your advice on the thread.

Blair.

BLAIR
the only proj in your case would be the NORTHFORK BULLET.....especially at those vel, the TSX are going to fail you as they did out of your 300 ultra...woodleighs i dont think will take those velocities
daniel

Blair,

Many elephant culls were performed using the .308. However, that is not a caliber which is legal or recommend for sport hunting ele.

...it is 4 PM - last day of your hunt - you have a plane to catch tomorrow at 10 AM - decide for yourself...

Ask him if he thinks the added velocity give any better performance on buffalo.

We both know that Saeed's velocities are 200 to 300 f/s faster than most 375s loaded with 300 Barnes X type bullets.

Who knows....his success might be helped by the bullet being closer to the aiming line.

Are you suggesting that the 338/378 with 250 to 300 grainers will mean the buffalo are running all over the countryside while those hit with a 300 grain 375 H&H are all going fall down.

Mike

Put one right under his chin and he'll drop like he fell in a hole! BTW I'm no expert. I killed my 16th buff in August, and have been present for about 10 other kills. However, every single book/ article I have read advise using the largest caliber the hunter can shoot accurately. My own limited experience bears this out.

Geronimo

quote:

We all know Saeed has shot 2 or 3 buffalo with a 300 grain 375 at 2700 plus.

We also know Saeed is a person that can hit what he shoots at......and shot placement is the major trump card in this game. He could likely kill buffalo with a lot less gun!!!

Of course everyone has his opinion, and mine is worth no more than the next man's! Anyway here it is!

MOI, Though the 338 dia is enough to kill a cape buffalo, or an elephant with one shot in the right place, I don't consider it a goot choice in the cartridge you are asking about. As someone, above, said,

quote:

H&H. Save the high velocity cartridges for varmints.

!

Even the 458 LOTT is too fast,in it's full loads, and needs backing off to around 2150, to 2200 fps to perform best! At those velocities Woodliegh bullets are tops in the 458 Dia, on Buffalo! Velocity above that does nothing more than cause more recoil, and punish bullets, and kills no better than the same bullet running slower. In actual tests have shown the pennetration is less after about 2350 fps on buffalo.

In this case, like most here, I'd choose the 375H&H with a 300 gr Nosler Partition, or Swift A-Frame,for a pure soft point, but I'd much prefere a North Fork Cup point copper solid, in a 375 H&H, at around 2450 - 2500 fps, but any of those bullets will do the job!

yup can probably knock one off with a 22 providing you hit him in just the right place. Shot placement is just about everything, however if'n you have this bull in the heavy cover they like and you can only see a portion and his moving which one if prefered then. I still llike my 470

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Of course everyone has his opinion, and mine is worth no more than the next man's! Anyway here it is!

MOI, Though the 338 dia is enough to kill a cape buffalo, or an elephant with one shot in the right place, I don't consider it a goot choice in the cartridge you are asking about. As someone, above, said,

quote:

H&H. Save the high velocity cartridges for varmints.

!

Even the 458 LOTT is too fast,in it's full loads, and needs backing off to around 2150, to 2200 fps to perform best! At those velocities Woodliegh bullets are tops in the 458 Dia, on Buffalo! Velocity above that does nothing more than cause more recoil, and punish bullets, and kills no better than the same bullet running slower. In actual tests have shown the pennetration is less after about 2350 fps on buffalo.

In this case, like most here, I'd choose the 375H&H with a 300 gr Nosler Partition, or Swift A-Frame,for a pure soft point, but I'd much prefere a North Fork Cup point copper solid, in a 375 H&H, at around 2450 - 2500 fps, but any of those bullets will do the job!

Mac,
This post has picqued my curiousity. Why is 2400-2500fps in a 375H&H perfectly acceptable when 2150-2200fps is needed for bullets in 458dia. to perform their best? If you're speaking of just Woodleighs or possibly Hornadys I might agree, but if one is using Swifts or NFs my own experience and common logic tells me they will do just as well or better at the H&H's velocity level. Mike Brady has told me many times that his softs perform better as the velocity is increased. When I loaded ammo for a friend to take on safari in Tanzania last year, we loaded Mike's 450gr softs to 2500fps and they killed buffalo, eland and zebra like a lightening bolt. Nothing moved out of it's tracks after bullet impact. I know this is an old debate that has seen many threads on forums such as this, but I still maintain that if a person is capable of doing good shooting with his chosen rifle, the 2400-2500fps level is a far more effective than slower speeds. Just my .02

quote:

...it is 4 PM - last day of your hunt - you have a plane to catch tomorrow at 10 AM - decide for yourself...

I will nail him with the shortest, highest speed mono available to me.

.375 H&H would be my pick. I have never shot the wildcat you are mentioning but I prefer shooting the .375 H&H to about any other big bore.

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
Mac,
This post has picqued my curiousity. Why is 2400-2500fps in a 375H&H perfectly acceptable when 2150-2200fps is needed for bullets in 458dia. to perform their best? If you're speaking of just Woodleighs or possibly Hornadys I might agree, but if one is using Swifts or NFs my own experience and common logic tells me they will do just as well or better at the H&H's velocity level. Mike Brady has told me many times that his softs perform better as the velocity is increased. When I loaded ammo for a friend to take on safari in Tanzania last year, we loaded Mike's 450gr softs to 2500fps and they killed buffalo, eland and zebra like a lightening bolt. Nothing moved out of it's tracks after bullet impact. I know this is an old debate that has seen many threads on forums such as this, but I still maintain that if a person is capable of doing good shooting with his chosen rifle, the 2400-2500fps level is a far more effective than slower speeds. Just my .02

John, I totally agree with you where the NF bullets are concerned. However, that is a bullet of a different color, and is an exception to the rule. It works best at some addtional speed. That is not the case with soft points of other brands.

Logic tells you many things, that are not true, on occasion, and one is that muzzle energy, and velocity are the best measure to qualify a bullet to make a clean kills on large animals. This idea is a wide brush idea that doesn't hold true for all bullets, or caliblers. In some cases high velocity is a detrement to good results.

There is a dynamic that is not fully understood,at least by me, and tests have proven that there is a point where most larger bullets pennetrate less, and veere off more, when a certain velocity is passed, in large animals. This window seems to be in the area of between 2150, and 2500 fps, for most bullets used on large animals.

Just as a fast bullet is deflected more than a slow one by hitting something before it gets to the target, this also applies to things hit inside that same target, like bones, or tough muscle structure.

Though many game depts use muzzle energy combined with bullet diameter, as the criteria to be legal, and effective, for dangerous game, it is not the best test of effeciency. Simply because a rifle has a lot of recoil, and the bullet gets to the animal quicker, doesn't nesessarily mean it kills better! That may be a mentaly sattisfying effect on thethe shooter, , when he feels that punch on his shoulder, it means little to the Buffalo!

Mike's bullets work better at higher velocities, because they generate less friction on the bullet to barrel surface than other bullets, and need to move faster to get the same stabelation, results than most other bullets, including the A-Frames, and NPs. That however, is unique to his type of bullet. His bullets may very well re-write the rules of engagement, as to what bullet works best, but doesn't apply to other conventional bullets! The A-frames, and NPs also work better at slower speeds, and pennetrate deeper, and in a straighter line!

The results I speak of, were not my tests, but those that resulted in tests done in Africa,and printed in either African Hunter, or Man Magnum magazine, three, or four years ago! These tests were done when it was discovered that the 460 WBY only killed SHOOTERS better than the old 450NE, and they set out to find the reason. Hyper velocity was found to be the culpret, and It's recoil causeing bad shooting!

I believe with non-expanding solids, the sittuation is a little more forgiveing, but still there is a point, if passed, where velocity is a detrement!

My Lott is loaded down to 450NE 3 1/4" velocities, and it has worked perfectly, with far less recoil, and pennetrates like a train going through a tunnel, right out the other side! Absolutely nothing else is needed, IMO!

IMO, hyper velocity is a plus on thin skinned game like muledeer, or impala,with fast opening bullets, for hydrostatic shock, but Buffalo, and Ele do not respond to shock much, and require damage to bones, and tissue, and for the bullet to travel as far as you can make the bullet travel inside the animal, before exiting! A vital target like the brian of an Ele, or the heart of a Buff, from bad angles, must be relied on to reach that vital organ to do the job, not veere off and miss it!

Nothing kills large animals better that than old NITRO EXPRESS cartridges usd in double rifles, and not one of them travels faster that 2500 fps! I wounder why that is the case!

.............My 0.02 cents

For the amount of recoil the .338/378 puts up, you could use a .42 of one flavor or another, even a .458wm, true buffalo rounds. Really, SD is nice but bigger holes always seem to work better than faster smaller holes on heavy game. Go .375h&h or up.

Mac-
I would imagine that most old double rifles couldn't handle a higher velocity, structurally speaking, and be usable for any length of time, due to the higher pressures needed for the extra speed. I also would guess the bullets employed back in the days of their golden era wouldn't stay together at much higher velocities. So, IMO the double guns were the reason the velocities were kept to the levels used. I notice that when Rigby designed their fantastic 416 they didn't hold to those low levels, nor did H&H when they came with the 375, nor Gibbs with the 505. But then, they were designed for bolt rifles, which we all know are quite inferior,
You might be correct as to why Mike's bullets need the speed, he never gave me such reasons when we've discussed it. Greater expansion, tissue disruption and trauma were what I remembered about our chats. In any case, I don't consider 2400-2500fps as hyper velocity for any bore diameter but will admit the recoil can get pretty grim when 500grs is moving that fast. However, my own field results and observations are what I ultimately put the most faith in, next to those of several other very experienced hunters and PHs that I consider friends. And those all tell me that a 450 bore rifle shooting a TSX or NF at 2400+fps is just a more dramatic and instantaneous killer of large game than one of similar size moving 300fps slower.
Your statement about nothing besting the large bore double rifles and N.E. cartridges as killers of large game is your opinion, and one I do not share...to each his own!

I have to jump on the velocity bandwagon on this one. The 460 Weatherby, when loaded with premium bullets such as the NFs, will out penetrate anything out there. Take a look at Saeed's observations regarding his 375/404. It kills with more efficacy than the 375. No doubt the old doubles are superb tools of the trade, but a 500gr bullet at 2500 plus and with a good bullet will hammer buffalo with more authority than a similar bullet at 2100. Just my opinion mind you. jorge