Thinking about my first big bore someday --

I've already got several rifles in the 7mm-08 to .30-06 range. However, I hope to go to Africa. Unless I get a .338 (on general principles) I would probably use a .30-06 for plains game.

However, I would really like to take a buffalo. For a shooter who is willing to practice his shooting and gunhandling, doesn't have any major infirmities other than being tall and skinny, and will not be making a daily habit of hunting dangerous game, which would be best -- the .375 H&H, .416 Rem. Mag., or .416 Rigby?

All are available in the apparently well-regarded CZ550, and the H&H and Remington in the Model 70 Classic. The H&H and Rigby are available in the Ruger 77 but there we are nudging the price range of a pre-'64 Model 70.

Finn Aagaard always recommended the .375 for first-time buffalo hunters because he thought it easy to shoot. But, in his late writings he said the .416 Rem. was about the best DG cartridge ever and worth using for those who could handle it.

Anyone?

John,

A riflery master I know likes to say "The .375 H&H is like a pair of black shoes; everyone should have one."

You are correct that it is enough for Cape buff with all the provisos. It is also simple to learn to use one effectively.

The .40s are more of a good thing, so perhaps you are looking at a situation where the excellent is the enemy of the good.

jim dodd

ps. I own and shoot three .375s, but I have the feeling that one of them is yearning to be rebarreled to .40.

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

John,
Without knowing your recoil threshold, I'd recommend a .375H&H over a .416. You will be able to develop a higher level proficiency sooner with the .375 due to its softer recoil.
The .416s are better if you plan on making a habit of hunting buffalo, but for a newcomer to rifles in this power (And recoil)range, they can be a bit much.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

John, If you are willing to learn to shoot a 416, of any brand, it is better on Buffalo than a 375 H&H, but is not as easy to shoot, especially for some one whos largest rifle is a tiny 30-06. The 375 H&H in a good control feed rifle is far more versitile, than any of the 416s, and once you learn to shoot it, is just fine for a one rifle Safari in Africa, but is far more usefull than any of the 400s in North America, where you will do ten times as much hunting as in Africa, unless you are a brother of Bill Gates! The 375 H&H is a fine elk rifle, is great where large brown bears are found, and will become your NEW 30-06. The 416 will likely stand in the gun safe for the most part, while a 375 H&H will be in the bush plane on your caribou hunts, because of the Brownies.

A 375 H&H is an easy rifle to sell, when you really need a 416, and will bring a good price. So after you get absolutely jaded with shooting the little 375 H&H, you can move up to the 416, but I have an idea you will be unable to turn the 375 loose, and will just buy another rifle in 416!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

I don�t think you can go wrong with either one, but my personal choice is a CZ in .416 Rigby. For the money it�s a great rifle. It has the classic straight stock (I am not sure if you can get that one in the States). The only thing that has been done to it is a simple bedding. It shoots 3 shots within one inch at 100 yards. Personally I don�t find it hard to shoot allthough I had never shot anything more powerful than a .30-06 before. Therefore I don�t se any real reason to chose a .375 over a .416. The .416 is very versatile and with 350 gr bullets I use mine on roe deer (60-70 pounds) here in Sweden.

/Kalle

With a .338 and a .416, I am afraid of nothing.

Follow F. Aagards advice:

If you can shoot the 416 Rem, get it in a controlled feed action...

If not, get the 375H&H. You will do good with both on buffalo...

Antonio

For dangerous game I much prefer the 416 over the 375 any way you cut it...the 375 is a wonderfull caliber and I wouldn't be without one but the 416 is considerably better for the big mean stuff...I can't tell a lot of difference in recoil between the two..If the 416 kicks you too hard then get a KDF or something like that on it, they sure do work...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

John, I have a CZ .416 Rigby and before owning that the heaviest kickers I have were my 30/06 and my 45/70 loaded with 405 gr projectiles. The .416 does kick but I think with practice you will master it. I find it harder to shoot it more accurately due to the tighter grip required on the forend (I am used to letting the forend rest in the sand bag).However the whole process still leaves me wanting a .375 H&H and I will get one with in the next couple of years.

If I could ever afford to go to Africa I reckon I might take a .375 H&H loaded with 270 grainers for plains game, and take a .416 Rigby loaded with 410 gr woodleighs for buff. So John you will need to buy both, you just have to decide which to get first

Regards PC.

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[This message has been edited by PC (edited 04-03-2002).]

MacD37 = 100%

One day you'll own both of these anyway.
Going from .30-06 to .375 makes good sense. Not to imply you couldn't handle the .416 straight away but a sequential learning curve is invaluable, IMHO.

John-

You've gotten a lot of experienced advice and I agree with all of it. My advice is to get a 375 and use it until and on your first trip to Africa. If you fall in love with Africa (and 9 of 10 visitors do) get a 416 for subsequent trips.

My personal experience and observation is that the 375 is marginal on buffalo. However, I would feel better as an unarmed participant watching a proficient hunter taking on a buffalo with a 375 than standing by while a flincher takes on a buffalo with a 416.

I agree with Mac's observations........

Fundamentally, "close" only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. If you can't shoot a .416 (any of them) with precision, you're better off with a .375: It's as simple as all that.

The rifle philosophy I disrespect most makes a blanket statement that says the Big Bores (.416s & larger) are "better" across the board for buff & stuff of that ilk, which is blatantly untrue. Such cartridges are only "better" if the guy who's pressing the trigger can shoot them well. If not (honesty ALWAYS has to come into play at some point in time), you're better off with something smaller.

AD

/

Lot's of good advice here.

The 375 works for buffalo. The 40's are better, but only if you can shoot them well.

However, the 375 is better for AFRICA as it is the most versitile caliber on the continent.

Get the 375. Save the 416 for an incentive for the future.

mmmm... Since you dont have a specific time frame as to when to get one, perhaps you can find a buddy in your area that can help you decide. A local range maybe, and fire the two cartridges some... to get a feel for them.
I am thin, but not tall and I find my big bores just bend me like a blade of grass, and are not bothersome.
There are a million hypotheticals that float around, hell you could die holding a 577 double in your hands.
If it is between the two cartridges I would get the 375 H&H, and completly fore-go the 416 in the future and buy a 458 lott or something larger. I always viewed the 416s as a "bigger" compromise then the 375.
Take care

Hi John,

you were mentioning that you are also thinking of a .338 Win.Mag.. I think the question is between one gun or two gun battery. The 375 H&H is the best one-gun-battery, whereas you think of a two-gun-battery, a combination of 338 & 416 is hard to beat!

Three years ago I was actually facing the same question - my answer was to get a .338 Win.Mag. (for African plains game, but also for all the other European game). Last year I then added a Ruger .416 Rigby, which, by the way, is a great rifle - both calibers are pleasent to shot and I've used both of them quite a bit (for sure the .338 much more then the .416, but you also can shot plains game with the .416

Cheers

Erik

Why must all the old hands believe that no one but them can shoot the big bores..Lots of folks can shoot the big bores and I would think that "if you can shoot" is understood under any conditions, including a 222.

I have lots of hunters every year shooting buffalo with their first 416, 458 and up and they all shoot well. I can't remember the last bad shot we sent over there, in fact I have never had but one bad shot in 30 years or so which kinda puts a crimp in that old gun magazine stuff about the bimbo hunters..

I might suggest that a 350 gr. Monolithic kicks about like a 375 and kills buffalo with aplomb according to some well experienced experts..Even Finn Aagard regarded the 416 as a better all around rifle than the 375 and said so in print. I assume he ment if you can shoot it of course. I believe that anyone who can shoot the 375 well can sure shoot a 416 or a 404 just as well...

Just for the sake of converstation, but I am convinced of this...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Wow, one bad shot it 30 years? I must be hunting with the wrong people.
I would agree with Ray that is you could shoot a 375 well, you should be able to shoot a 416 well. However, I have a few friends that have an upper reasonable limit that never reaches a 416, yet can shoot there largest caliber well. This is purly psychological as they are healthy and strong individuals. If you put your mind to it, there is little reason any healthy able body couldnt shoot a 416.
get a 375 or a 458 lott, or similar... fore-go the 416.

Thanks to all for the interesting advice.

As to my recoil tolerance -- I have shot a .375 (Model 70 Classic Safari Express, iron sights) and kept about 20 rounds in a "minute of moose" bullseye at 50 yds, standing and sitting.

Only time it bothered me was one of the standing shots when my cheek wasn't firmly down and I got popped under the cheekbone. Certainly that rifle, from those positions, hurt less than my pre-war Model 70 .30-06 (steel buttplate) does from prone.

Small Fry,
When one pays Safari prices, they realize they must shoot well or pay for wounded game and thats one hell of an incentive...Also the folks that come to Africa are shooters and they love to hunt...I believe that is the difference....least they would spend the big bucks on whisky, wimmen and song or at least golf....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

LOL... true Ray, true.

Ray,
Finally! Something that we completely agree on.
If there is no hurry to get accustomed to the big bore, why not buy the 416 and spend those extra months or years getting accustomed to it? In reality, I've never felt much difference between the two but from what I observed the game sure did.

John,
Oh we agree on a lot of things I just have keep you on your toes from time to time for the sake of stimulating converstation....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com