I have had Elmer Keith Safari a long time.I have just started reading it.It is an aweome book.He makes you feel like your right there beside him.He was a tough old guy.He is my favorite Boig Game author.His stuff still holds true.I wish He had gone to Africa with his big doubles more to write more books about it.He knew the big double rifles better than about any one he hunted with them alot.I bought 4 copies of this book long ago and it is the last of his books I had to read.I just wish some one would put together more of his old articles from the 30,40,50s in a book.He was an awe big bore writer.I grew up reading him and still love using my 338 and 416 for any big game which rules the earth.I could kick myself .I had a chance to buy a 338-378 KT and passed on it.A friend got it and rechambered it to 338-378 weatherby.The more you read Keith these days the more you see how far head of his time he really was.Thats because his words always hold true.

Yea! I enjoy Keith, but sometimes his adventures remind me a bit of ol Pondoro's tales, mayby, just a tad long. I agree with O'Connor more than Keith about rifles, but man, does Keith know his sidearms.

Yep those 270s stop dangerous game right in their tracks.It might make a good varmit rifle in time.I have not found things untrue in Elmers books .I have found oconers books boring and kinda a waste of paper.Its funny I cant give away oconner books hardly .Elmers books just keep on going up in price.It must be in the writting I guess.If you put 10 of oconners bookds together they still wont stop a 338.

Yea, I have get Safari out and look at it again from time to time. I really like it. Believe I paid Elmer $7.50 deliveried and signed by him, way back when I was younger.

Yes, you almost can't give O'Connors books away, but I did enjoy some of them. Try to buy an Elmer K. book at giveaway prices!

Elmer keiths books are awesome to read about double rifles.Thats awesome that you got one of the orginals signed and delivered.I have all his book excepot 4 signed.I would trsde a copy of Safari for Keiths Rifles for large Game signed.Yep he had a awesome collection of double rifles.It hard to believe how much he influnced the shooting industry.The African shooting safari wanted him to come to Africa so they helped him get his trips to Africa.He loved those double rifles .If I could afford one I would hunt with one two.I mainly use the 416 rem mag of which I have 6 rifles in.I have one Winchester 458.Elmer liked the 416 Rigby but liked doubles alot better than bolt actions.It would be hard to get the Big Five of Africa like he did today on one trip .He shot more big rifles more times than any of us will ever think of doing.I have put 2500 rounds through my 416 rem mags just playing and target shooting.I think Elmer would really like knowing that alot of the big guns he loved sill make trips around the world.Hopefully I get his other four books in signed copies.

Ted Keith tried for years to find enough money to open an Elmer Keith Museum but couldn't do it.However, he talked Cabelas into incorporating the museum into their new store in Boise,Idaho.They have all Elmer's guns, trophies and even a talking model of Elmer,Hat included.Can't wait to see it.

Sam

Previously registered as Bravo five one

Yup ,, Elmer Kieth was more intelligent than Jack O'Conner . And alot more entertaining writer....

Look in this past topic for pics of some of Elmer's doubles.

"Elmer Keith museum open"

465H&H

I'd have to agree on the Keiths writing vs O'Connor. O'Connor's writing kind of reminds me of a another who writes hollow, empty, boring stuff.

Bodington's stuff is very difficult for me to read and enjoy. It's just all so shallow. It's kind of like reading a stylized version of an after action report.

BORING.....

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Yup ,, Elmer Kieth was more intelligent than Jack O'Conner . And alot more entertaining writer....

A self styled "cowboy" vs. a university professor. Yeah, sure, Elmer was the more intelligent of the two.

The smartest thing Elmer ever did was make sure all the "witness's" to his great shooting feats were dead before he wrote about them.

I especially liked the one one where he heard a rattlenake "buzz", jumped up in the air, drew and fired his single action revolver twice before hitting the ground. And if I remember correctly, he killed the snake. And yes, the witness died prior to him writing this tale.

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Yup ,, Elmer Kieth was more intelligent than Jack O'Conner . And alot more entertaining writer....

A self styled "cowboy" vs. a university professor. Yeah, sure, Elmer was the more intelligent of the two.

The smartest thing Elmer ever did was make sure all the "witness's" to his great shooting feats were dead before he wrote about them.

I especially liked the one one where he heard a rattlenake "buzz", jumped up in the air, drew and fired his single action revolver twice before hitting the ground. And if I remember correctly, he killed the snake. And yes, the witness died prior to him writing this tale.

As Ted Fowler said, at least Elmer didn't bring his ivory back strapped to damn suitcase like old ".270 Jack" did.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

All right...There's nothing we can't fight about on AR!!

Do any of you guys have an idea where I may be able to find a copy of "Safari"?

Surestrike,

You are right about that!

My last word on the subject is this. I never read anything O'Conner wrote that struck me as being an outright lie. NEVER> I can't say the same about Elmer.

I would be interested reading what you believe to be an outright lie from Elmer Keith.

Josh

The above stated rattlesnake incident. The one about killing a wounded deer at 600 yards with a 4" S&W revolver. The time he was going to have an old west shoot out in the street but his opponent was a no show. The entire concept of "Hell, I was there" (he wasn't even born when the wild west was wild). To name a few. The list is endless.

DC300,

you need to get on the west side of the Mississippi and travel a little out here in the west.
Jack O'Connor was a sissy who never took himself hunting, he always wrangled these freebies from guides who wanted a little national ink. Keith worked as a guide for several years, taught at Erv Malnarich's Guide and Packer School, shot very well at Camp Perry for more than a decade, and worked at the Ogden Arsenal during WWII. Where was JO...? Why at home doing absolutely nothing of note during those years.
I was at Elmer's house many times up in Salmon, and met most all of the "witnesses" you said died before he wrote his stories. Nearly all of them outlived him. As we say out here, "you talk like a man with a tin-plated a**hole who is always blowing his own horn". He basically invented the 44 Magnum Revolver and got S&W to bring it out and build the guns.
The people of Idaho and Montana all knew which one was full of hot air and which one had actually done the things he wrote of.

I suspect you are just a loser who wants people to pay some attention to him and figured out this might be his chance to. Why, if you stood on your mother's shoulders you still couldn't reach high enough to kiss Elmer Keith's a**.

Rent a life, loser!

Rich
DRSS

Idaho Sharpshooter,
I didn't start reading Elmer's writing until the last couple of years. I wish I had the chance to meet him in person. Hell I Was There was one of the best books I have evr read.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
DC300,

you need to get on the west side of the Mississippi and travel a little out here in the west.
Jack O'Connor was a sissy who never took himself hunting, he always wrangled these freebies from guides who wanted a little national ink. Keith worked as a guide for several years, taught at Erv Malnarich's Guide and Packer School, shot very well at Camp Perry for more than a decade, and worked at the Ogden Arsenal during WWII. Where was JO...? Why at home doing absolutely nothing of note during those years.
I was at Elmer's house many times up in Salmon, and met most all of the "witnesses" you said died before he wrote his stories. Nearly all of them outlived him. As we say out here, "you talk like a man with a tin-plated a**hole who is always blowing his own horn". He basically invented the 44 Magnum Revolver and got S&W to bring it out and build the guns.
The people of Idaho and Montana all knew which one was full of hot air and which one had actually done the things he wrote of.

I suspect you are just a loser who wants people to pay some attention to him and figured out this might be his chance to. Why, if you stood on your mother's shoulders you still couldn't reach high enough to kiss Elmer Keith's a**.

Rent a life, loser!

Rich
DRSS

What a load. You and your ilk are still kissing up to a dead man and I'm the loser? You met all his cronies did you? Prove it.

All I ever said about O'Conner was he never made me think he was a liar. Your hero did that darn near every time he put words on a page.

Concerning my tin plated a**hole, is it a cry for attention simply to state my opinion? Also, notice I didn't have to resort to profanity to express myself. But I guess to you that makes me less of a man...

IS, just put his ass on ignore and save yourself some un-needed aggravation. As you say, EK lived the life and was able to walk the walk & talk the talk.

quote:

Originally posted by 475Guy:
IS, just put his ass on ignore and save yourself some un-needed aggravation. As you say, EK lived the life and was able to walk the walk & talk the talk.

My way or the highway...

I find it interesting that people here tend to be dogmatic on their views on any issue. Objectivity is certainly a rare commodity here.

I personaly knew both Jack and Elmer and was on a first name basis with each. I didn't know O'connor as well as Elmer but I corresponded with him over a period of 6 or 7 years and spent a couple of pleasant afternoons at his home discussing our mutual interest of hunting and guns. We had planned a deer hunt in eastern Idaho but a trip to Europe for him got in the way. He suggest that I take the well known gunsmith Al Biesen in his place. Al took a treamendous 30" mulet deer buck on that hunt. According to Al, Jack was a little envious when he saw it.

I knew Elmer much better as I lived for 11 years in Salmon Idaho from 1971 to 1982. I often visited him at his home and the local coffee shop. He got me interested in double rifles and when I would get one in to try out I always took to Elmer to get his opinion on it. He helped me load ammo for some of them. I also took Elmer and his wife Lorrain out deer hunting a couple of times near Salmon.

So what were they really like? Here is my assessment of them.

Jack O'connor was an extremely good writer as you would expect of a college professor. His use of the english language was college level caliber but he always wrote in a style that the common man could understand. IMO he wrote truthfully (in most cases) and his views were well thought out. His writting was entertaining and informative. He had a huge following while he was hunting editor for Outdoor Life. He hunted over much of the world and gained a treamendous amount of experience from it which he shared with his readers. If you wrote to him you could count on receiving an answer.

He was an ardent user of blue language and he enjoyed the company of a fine or not so fine beverage. He would listen to a differing opinion and present logical arguments to back his point of view. He could not suffer an ignorant or out of line person. Jack started out doing all of his own hunting. He hunted Mexico, Arizona, Texas and probably other areas on hids own usually in the company of his wife or teenage boys. He knew the south end from the north end of a pack or ridding horse. To say Jack only hunted on guided hunts is patently false. He didn't start using guides to any extent until Outdoor Life started sending him on his world travels. This didn't occur until after WWII and he was getting long in the tooth.

I don't think Elmer even had a high school education and his writting showed it in a gramatical sense. In spite of that he was one hell of a good story teller and kept his audience interested in spite of all the gramatical inaccuracies. I have seen Elmer shoot and to say he was good is an understatment and remember I didn't know him until he was in his 70s. I have no reason to doubt any of his published shooting exploits. I never herd Elmer cuss and he was always a gentleman around the ladies as his western upbringing dictated. He started out from very humble beginnings and had to suffer low paying jobs rhat really couldn't support his interest in hunting and guns. He did it anyway and became a known expert in the hunting and gun press. He wasn't as easy to debate gun or hunting issues with as Jack was. He was a little more dogmatic in his views and IMO would only listen to someone whose experience he respected or that he really liked. It seems to me he had a difficult time changing his opinion. Although he started out doing all of his hunting on his own as his reputation increased offers for free hunting trips increased and he took advantage of them. Also as with Jack as he grew older and was less physicaly able he counted more and more on guided or at least accompanied hunts. He really disliked hawks and owls and wrote that hunters should shoot every one they see and he was known to do just that even though it was against the law. He made that statement to me and I responded that if I caught him doing it I would arrest him. Once we agreed on that scenario we became good friends. I may be wrong but I think that caused him to stop that type of activity.

I am not trying to disparage either of them here but to show that both were human with some human faults and a great amount of talent. They are both icons of outdoor writting and the hunting world would be less if neither had lived and hunted. I am exceedingly grateful that I had the oppurtunity to know them and call them friends.

465H&H

465H&H,

You had a fascinating opportunity. Glad you took advantage of it. I would enjoy hearing more.

Since they both lived near to each other do you know of any time they got together. It makes me wonder what they thought of each other.

465 H & H,

Thank you!

465, thanks for a great post.

Palmer, 465 would know better, but it is my understanding that there was no love lost between them!

I grew up with both of them! I found each one interesting. Like Jack I favor the Pre'64 Model 70 Featherwieght, and I am a big fan of the .270, and .30'06. Like Elmer I enjoy the .338 caliber. Mine a .340 Wby. Mag. But, if you have read much from both of them will find that Jack used a .375 H&H Mag. on his lion, and Elmer shot Mule Deer with a .25/.35 Model 94 Winchester. Perhaps, I wouldn't use a .30'06 on lion like Jack's Wife did. But, then again I wouldn't use a .338/.378 (a wildcat then) on Pronghorn like Elmer did.

Idaho Sharpshooter and 465 have brought back some very fond memories. Thirty plus years, and sixty plus pounds ago, I attended Erv Malnarich's guide school in Hamilton. That and the season that followed were some of the finest weeks/months of my life.

Erv was every bit as much of a character as Elmer (at that time, he had been banned from every bar in Hamilton). During the rifle shooting course, both Erv and Elmer were doing some serious damage to a full fifth of Royal Crown or Old Crow, I don't recall exactly. Anyway, between the two of them, it didn't last long. Elmer had brought along his Ruger #1 in 375 and we all took turns trying it out. That was the first time I had fired anything larger than 30 caliber, so I was a little intimidated. Elmer was setting right at the same shooting bench, not three feet away. When it was my turn and the shot was called a perfect center hit, as any young pup would do, I looked at Elmer for that nod or look of approval. Imagine my dissapointment when on looking to my right, there was Elmer, with his head resting in one hand and he was soundly asleep . I should have remembered the exact brand of whiskey as I have on occasion been in need of something that could put me to sleep so well that a 375 going off next to me wouldn't wake me up.

Of course, my copy of "Safari" was bought that day and signed and dedicated by Elmer.

As an aside, the photos that Elmer was using to show proper shots on elephant, as depicted by Charlie Shedd, weren't 100% up and up. Charlie is a friend of mine and one day I asked him about the photos. He didn't recall sending Elmer any photos but might have (he and Elmer weren't on the same hunt). I took the book over to his house one day and he took a look at them and acknowleged that they were of him and were his photos but none of the elephants in the photos were ever actually shot. He and his friend were just fooling around and taking photos with the elephants in the back-ground. Although he must have shot one some time. Framing the hall in his house are two tusks that are pretty impressive; 84 and 89 pounds IIRC.

Anyway, my measly two cents.

Thanks 465 H&H and NF Mike,

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the two old icons of hunting. Of course, both had their strong points and were prone to cross swords, sells more copies. But I always will be greatful to Elmer Keith for pushing the 44 Mag and his adiction for magnums and big bore rifles in general.

All the legends are prone to stretch the truth a bit in their shooting. Maybe Bodington is an exception, because he will tell you when he misses, makes him human and interesting and not untouchable like Ed McGivern with his feats.

Just MHO,

Dak

I Started reading Gun Notes in Guns And Ammo around 1972.unting.I listened to what Elmer wrote.I finally got a 338 win mag around 1986 and shot most all the game I shot with it after then.I wanted a 338-378 KT so bad and wished I had bought the only one I have ever seen.I finally got two 338-378 weatherbys and love them for long range big game .Elmer would love how popular the 416 is today .He though that was about the smallest caliber that should be used in Africa on the big five.His books have awesome info on using big caliber rifles.He inveted so many bullets and calibers and things we take for granted today.He was making night sites and range finding cross hairs in scopes in the 1920s and 1930s.He influenced Bill Ruger Alot in the Ruger #1 ,the Ruger Black Hawk and a few more.The 44 mag and the 41 mag were dreams of his that came true.I see alot more of Keiths influnece in rifles today.Oconner did make the 270 more popular but thats about his biggest influence on rifles I saw.Elmer helped design the Winchester model 70.I love all you Elmers Books.He wrote 10 books and thousands of Articles.Dont forget to read Keiths Rifles For Large Game .It is an awesome book.He loved hunting ,writing,shooting and was one of the last real cowboys of the wild west.I wish someone would publish all his old articles that have not been reprinted in book form so we could read them.

Thank you, 465H&H, for taking the time to share that.

I read articles in old guns and ammo about elephant hunting ,44magnums,and experimenting with heavy calibers ,i agreed with him you must use enough gun .Elmer was a montana guide besides being a weapons expert and he knoed what he talk.JUAN

quote:

Oconner did make the 270 more popular but thats about his biggest influence on rifles I saw.

I disagree. For 40 years (basically until the rise of the stainless, synthetic rifle), basically all sporting rifles were built to O'Connor's definition of what a sporting rifle should look like...22" barrel, about 8lbs all ready to go, and stocked for a scope sights. Before that, it was what Whelen thought a rifle should be...24" barrel, more than 9lbs ready to go. I am not taking away from Elmer's enormous contributions, but to say Jack didn't have an influence is flat out wrong.

-Lou

I liked Capstick's description of this book "a nightmare of zoological misinformation", which pretty much sums up my feelings about Keith.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Do any of you guys have an idea where I may be able to find a copy of "Safari"?

There were a couple on ebay. I was going to try for one but the last one is up to $280, OUCH!!! Maybe next time.

Capstick was the story teller not Keith.If you like Big Bore Rifles and Double Rifles check into Elmers books .They are awesome.Elmer Helped design the model 70 winchester in the 30s.You would not believe all the influences he had in shooting.His duplex loads for the 50 bmg during WWII got 200 fps faster with the same powder.It lit the powder charge from the front of the case not the back.I am suprised no one ever tried it with other guns.I think Elmer was 50 years ahead of his time.The 338 win mag has become very popular these days as well as the 416 rem mag.Even Craig Boddington says in his Safari Rifles book that these two are the perfect two gun battery for any big game animals in the world.I just wonder how many people still take old 270s advice about using a 270 as a grizzley rifle.I have not seen many peop;e using the 7x57 as W.D.M.Bell did on elephants either.You can never kill anything too dead,but you can wound an animal with the wrong shot.Always make you first shot count the most Elmer always said.

465H&H,

Thank you for about the FIRST, well thought out and cleanly written post, about Keith and O'Connor that I have ever read.

What gives your post authority, is that you knew both men personally and you recognized the strengths and weaknesses in each man as a writer and a person.

Thank you!

They are both heros of mine.

Boddington is as well regardless of what you think of him, he has a job most of us envy.

I have a few of O'Conners books, a few of Elmer Kieths, and almost all of Boddingtons.

The only Boddington book I don't care for is the new Boone and Crockett nonsense. It's rife with Fair Chase nonsense. Just more BS to seperate hunters from hunters.

They are on a fairly short list of writers I admire. With Flack, Capstick, Barness, and Patterson.

I think it's assinine to speak ill of men that have hunted as much as O'Conner and Kieth did in their day they really set some amazing and lofty goals.

If either one was alive today I think they would be shooting Lazzeronis, WSMs, RUMS, fiberglass stocks, carbon fiber wrapped barrels, and Blaser R93's and speaking high regards.

Thanks to 465 for the update.

Given the scarcity of this book, it seems a natural for a reprint. How come this hasn't been done?

It is a book that should probally be reprinted.I think there were around 600-1000 copies of the only printing of Safari.It has alot of good pictures in it also.There are lots of awesome double rifles and bolt guns in it to die for.It took me forever to find the four copies I have.I wanted Keiths Rifles Signed but got two copies of Safari signed.I missed signed copies of some targets he shot with a 458 a nice clover leaf.I love all 10 of his books plus gun notes in book form.They need to put together everything he wrote in the 1930s -1970 and print a few books.I know it would still make awesome reading.He is the king of the big bore writers .

There's a copy on e-bay for around $325. I'll have to wait for a reprint before I get one.

I paid alot 10 years ago when I got these 4 copies.Elmers books especially signed will just keep going up.If anyone has any signed Elmer Keith books they want to get rid of I am interested.I do like Safari and I am glad I read it last of all of his books.Keiths Rifles for Large game was reprinted and its anawesome rifle book too.