This is a duplicate from a post in the "Big Bore Forum" It was suggested by one of the members that I post it here also. (Apparently some of you don't frequent that forum? Here it is:



Posted 27 April 2009 23:12
First, let me give the background as complete and as useful as I can think of at the moment.

Among many other calibers I have a .375 H&H and a .470 NE double. I want to get another rifle and have narrowed it down to either a .416 Rigby or a .458 Lott. I have never fired either and don't see an opportunity to do so in the near future. The rifle is intended for a trip to Africa within one to two years. Elephant is out of the question. Cape Buff is a goal and if I can at all swing it would like to bag a lion once in this lifetime, plus of course plains game.

I've researched the differences on paper. Ammo cost for becoming proficient is about the same, not a factor. The interchangeability of the 458 Lott with the 458 Win is a neutral to me. The magazine capacity of the Rigby vs the Lott gives a very slight edge to the Lott. But the African romance of the Rigby gives it a slight edge as well.ETC. ETC.

Now we come to my question: recoil. My 375 H&H is not a problem to me at all. The few time I have fired the .470 NE I have not found it to be intimidating or uncomfortable at all.

You may ask, why don't you just take the double with you. Good question, but I don't want to take a chance with my ruling safe queen. I intend to make it part of my estate and don't want any more dings,etc. Plus the always present possibility of theft or confiscation.

For those of you who have fired the calibers mentioned, do you have any insights that might prove helpful?

I think you should reconsider taking the 470; after all that is what it was built for.
However if your mind is already made up on
that point then I would consider the 416.

I've got all four of the calibres you mention (I say calibres because my .416 is a Rem., not a Rigby). Personally, on the .416's, I'm a .416 Rem. fan, just because of ammo cost, but either one's a great plains game rifle too. Just use solids on the small stuff and your good out to 200 yards and beyond.

IMHO, A double rifle is for hunting and as for theft and loss, that's what insurance is for. So I'd buy an insurance policy and hunt with it, but that's a personal choice and you seem to have made yours.

That said, if elephant are not in the picture, I don't think you could go wrong with a Rigby. Or even if elephant are, it's still a great choice. The .416 is clearly more versatile than the .458 Lott and it kicks less. (The Lott's recoil will probably be a bit sharper than your .470 double.)

No bad choices here. Good luck.

Why not just take the .375 H&H?

You already have a .375 for the lion and plains game, and for God's Sake, you have a DOUBLE gun in the safe just begging to be used for it's intended purpose!! You mentioned that you want to leave it in your estate, so leave it with a few "beauty" marks from hunting buff.. What do you care, you'll since be long gone..

I know opinions are like assholes, but if that rig was mine, there wouldn't be any disscussion at all.. the .470 would be there, bar none.

The guys at the "Big Bore Forum" had the same initial reaction: Take the darn 470! Pe5haps it would useful if I repeated here what I said in the other forum regarding that rifle:

Gentlemen, I thank you for all of your constructive input. Maybe GeorgeS and MikelRavy missed the part of my post where I said the 470 isn't going. By way of explanation, that rifle was given to me by my uncle as I was being deployed overseas in the military in the late 60's. The rifle had been given to him by his father, my grandfather. He told me the rifle had been to Africa but we didn't have a chance to have a long discussion about it, and we intended to do that when I got back. While I was gone he died in a freak accident in a lake in Danbury, Ct.

I've always considered it a prized possession and couldn't forgive myself if something happened to it. The only reason I brought the rifle up was for the comparison in recoil in my question. Therefore, you see I don't really have a complete battery, just my 375. (Next one down is a 300 win-mag)

Insure the 470 and then use it for what it was made for. Your uncle and your grandfather would have been pleased to see that, I suspect.

JPK

Another vote for adequate insurance and taking it hunting. It makes for a stronger family legacy if you too add to the rifles history.

quote:

Originally posted by doclee:
Another vote for adequate insurance and taking it hunting. It makes for a stronger family legacy if you too add to the rifles history.

+1 add to the legacy, if not then there is only one other caliber/rifle that is nostalgic enough to start another heirloom with and that's the 416 Rigby. IMO always hunt with a caliber older than yourself.

If it was me I would use the 470 and then put it away for the rest of your life. I have a Winchester 101 that is my Hunting Shotgun. People see me out Hunting with it and FREAK OUT!!! They say do you know how much that gun is worth? My answer of course I do. It will be in my Estate as I will NEVER part with it. That 101 and your 470 were purchased for Hunting. Enjoy it while your here!!! Good Luck with your decission.

My biggest concern is that I'll wind up with insurance money and no rifle. I've never been to Africa before but I've heard and read stories about theft, gun confiscations by government morons, etc. Not really knowing what to expect with any amount of certainty my instinct is to protect the piece and take something more "expendable".

Bannor

I understand where you are coming from regarding the .470 and not wanting to risk it. Having said that, what would your uncle and grandfather want? What about your heirs? (I lucked out in being able to ask my dad what he thinks best.) There have been several threads on this forum about family members not valuing expensive guns as much as the one that their dad or whoever used on a regular basis.

I also think the horror stories are a bit overdone. It seems that a number of guns go missing for a period of time, but eventually show up (after a side trip to Timbuktu) and a highly insured piece is likely to have a lot of people really worrying about finding it.

If I were you, take the .470, shoot buffalo with it, take lots of pictures of you using it, and make sure the following generation realizes that THIS gun is a family treasure, and hopefully one of them will take it over to Africa as well. If its your safe queen, while they may know it was great-grandpaw's gun, there will be no real connection, and they may well look at it as a 6-figure out of debt card instead.

If you are determined to not use it, I would go with a .416 Rigby as you have said Elephant is out- and that is less money than the Lion, so I assume you have a personal reason to say Elephant is out. The Rigby is a bit easier to shoot, and since you seem to be concerned about posterity, as a classic caliber, you would have choices for your kids to choose which one they want. IMO, the .470 and the .458 Lott are Elephant guns/stoppers, while the .416 is also not too much for big bear over here, and is a bit more versatile for PG.

I'll chime in here as well and say the double rifle needs to go with you and be used how it was intended. Take lots of pictures and notes, and when your safari is over make a journal of the trip and have it bound in buff or some other animal hide that you shot with your double, and keep it with the gun.

Would you want your grandson to take this rifle to Africa too and hunt with it many years from now, or would you want it to be kept in the back of the gunsafe, protected from scratches? That will probably help you decide what your own grandfathers thoughts would have been on the matter.

If the 470's African exploits have been sadly lost, go make some new stories for it and make sure your kids hear them.

A hand written diary is always something special to keep with the gun in a small note book if you are looking at this staaying in the family for future generations.

Of all the safaris here I've read about I can't rememebr there being any who have lost guns. I'm sure some have somewhere bu I don't recal them.

FB

I agree with the others, take the 470 with you and add to the history of the rifle.

crbutler is dead on. You want to make sure your heir to the rifle knows this is a family treasure, and not just grampa's gun. Just like crbutler said, I've seen grandkids sell great hitorical rifles because they needed some cash. One guy sold my dad his grandfather's model 1873 Winchester .44WCF and another rifle for less than either one was worth.

You guys have me almost convinced to take the 470. I think what I'll do is get the 416 (any excuse, right?) and then decide closer to departure time which one will be going.

Thank you for all of your input, gentlemen.

Bannor

Tell us a little more about your Evans 470.

I have handled and shot a few Evans doubles, including a 470.
They are very fine doubles. One of my favorites.

Something else to consider is establishing a tradition where each heir to the rifle/other family member takes it to Africa at least once.

We tend to live in a throw away culture here as compared to the rest of the world, and an unused gun is eventually going to be sold by someone. One that has hunted Africa with Great grandfather, Granddad, and a bunch of Uncles has a good chance of staying with the family over the generations. And keep getting hunted with as well, even if only once a decade or so.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Bannor

Tell us a little more about your Evans 470.

I have handled and shot a few Evans doubles, including a 470.
They are very fine doubles. One of my favorites.

Yes, Please

Duggaboye and Ne 450 N02: I'm afraid that what I know about double rifles could probably fit in a thimble without danger of overflowing.

Here's what I can tell you: the barrel length is 26". It has what I would call very subtle engraving. If you stood a few feet away you probably wouldn't think it was engraved. Nothing fancy like animals or scenery or anything, just subtle scrolling. A few years ago I wrote to a forum asking what some numbers on it meant and they told me that it was meant to indicate it was regulated to Kynoch 500 gr. The stock has a few scratches and small (not deep) dings which would indicate use, but not very much. I'm the farthest thing from an expert but I would rate the bluing at about 97-98%. It is an ejector model. Unfortunately in my area there is only one real gun shop and the people there aren't very congenial. The rest are Pawn-shops/gun shop combos without any that I have found that show any more knowledge than I have. Most of them less if that's possible. Such is Florida. One of these days I'm going to drive a long way to get it appraised. Any guesses as to what something like this would be worth?

Evans are nice weapons.
My 12ga. SLE had fine engraving also and was an absolute delight.
Enjoy it!

quote:

Insure the 470 and then use it for what it was made for. Your uncle and your grandfather would have been pleased to see that, I suspect.

Not only would they be pleased, but I suspect that is what they anticipated.

Please use the .470 Evans. I have a 1913 Evans sxs sidelock best shotgun in 12 ga. 2 1/2 that I bird hunt with all the time. I have no concerns traveling with it. You should have someone clean and service this rifle before taking it to Africa.

To my knowledge there is only one fellow in North America to do any work on your Evans---and he is located in Toronto, Canada (at least he was 5 years ago). I contacted Evans in the UK about some work on my gun a few years ago and they sent me to this fellow rather than them doing the work in the UK. They said he used to work for them and relocated. PM me and I will forward the contact details.