I know that this topic has been discussed on this forum before, but anyway, here we go again!

Taken from the website of Mark Egger (http://www.wabi.ch/e_news.htm )


Leopard hunting in Namibia / with hounds - 19th of February 2007
Dear Friends!

We hope that this mail finds you and your families all well.

We want to bring to your attention an issue that has slowly festered over the last three years into a real problem causing us and others much undue stress and sorrow. We kindly ask all of you, non-hunters and hunters, to take hand and stop a gruesome killing, going on in Namibia, immediately.

The following is a brief explanation of the relevant facts and issues involved.

For more than 35 years the use of dogs was not permitted when hunting with foreign clients. This, to our astonishment, seems now to be a grey area as the Leopard specifically is not mentioned in the law, as conveniently alleged by certain Professional Hunters and Outfitters. The fact is, that the existing ordinance was read and or interpreted over 35 years as such, that any hunting with dogs and a trophy hunter is forbidden.

The only exception is made in the existing Ordinance of Nature Conservation N0. 4 of 1975, that when and only if such a cat has been identified and registered by the Ministry of Environment and Tourism, as a PROBLEM ANIMAL!
One would really like to see all of the hunting permits issued by such mean just of last year.

As you may be aware of, certain Outfitters of hunting Safaris are making use more and more of dog packs for the matter of hunting and the killing of Leopards. For several years we have been observing the slow emerge of these actions and behavior amongst members of the hunting fraternity, which we, as hunters, landowners, gamefarmers and conservationists, can no longer accept. We have engaged ourselves in discussions with AfricaCat and others involved on several occasions. Providing video footage taken in Botswana, Zimbabwe, in which the horror of such a slaughter conducted is horrifically depicted. We can truly tell you, and hope that you will believe us, that while we watched the footage and seeing the Leopard, first being chased for many hours until eventually being unable to move or to defend himself, then being bitten over and over again by the dog pack, slowly surrendering, and finally being killed by the "hunter" who was standing on a truck, our stomach turned. After the killing, everybody patted each other on the shoulders and a well done, was heard!

These unethical and disgusting actions have not been stopped, up and until now. WHY NOT?

While we were attending the Safari Club Convention in Reno just two weeks ago, we were confronted with quite a number of informations which we think you should know.

We have been told by a Professional Hunter, that during the hunting season of 2006, 250 cats have been killed in Namibia with clients. On a hunting farm, sized at 65'000 ha, apparently several dozen cats have been killed with the help of dogs. Let us tell you, that on a farm such as WABI, sized at 10'000 ha, you can be happy if you find two (2) territorial mature male Leopards (at least 5 - 8 years of age)! To put it in simple words: In a case as mentioned above everything tracked will most likely be killed, if we can believe what was reported to us. But let's believe in the worstcase scenario!

We were also told, and now hold on to yourselves, that Cheetah was offered to a client who hunted Namibia recently. Hunted with the dog pack! We hope that you are slowly catching our drift to where this might lead in the future, as it already has.

Whilst we know and understand why one might use dogs, considering a farmer that has a true problem cat on his property, we cannot accept that these activities are being sold to foreign hunters and a much more disturbing fact is the uncertainty of not knowing, that not all of these wonderful creatures while being chased, are being killed, including females that might have some cubs hidden somewhere.

The hunter should of course be able to walk for some hours, but what if he is not? CORRECT, he is driven to the place where he will make his great killing. Please remember, when the hunting and killing of an animal becomes more or less the slaughtering of such a wonderful creature, it has absolutely nothing to do with the real hunting, it is just killing. Me and Christine are Outfitters / Lodge owners and we love our game, including the cats of Africa. Safaris conducted in this manner will cause everyone in the Tourism industry unnecessary problems and it will do harm to the reputation of Namibia. In our humble opinion, individuals that refuse to conduct Safaris in a serious, proper manner and/or produce questionable results need to be exposed and stopped.

To ignore the ethics of hunting may be one thing, but the endangerment of a species is another story. Let us imagine, one Leopard, fighting, running for his life against a dog pack of 10 -15 animals! Why? Only for his skin. Let us remember one thing, these cats were here long before us. We call on all Namibians, Hunters, Outfitter, Tour - Operators and the Ministry of Environment & Tourism, to make these kind of operations public knowledge and more importantly, end it!

Namibia currently has a very unique chance with respect to our tourism development, do we really wish to jeopardize for what we all have worked so hard for, only, and I quote Mr. Beytell, "for the short term financial gain" of a very few? And that, is all what this is. Let's remember, in Great Britain the use of hounds was banned for hunting Fox on horseback. Do we wish to be seen in the same unfavorable light?

Any input and or comment that you may have is highly appreciated and most welcome. Please, let us not accept this in silence, rather gather all together and be heard!

Send us an e-mail, or fax and we shall hand it to the Minister of Environment and Tourism.
Yours truly, and thank you all for reading this. God bless you!

Mark & Christine Egger

Who the hell are they? Sounds like more bambi-ite anti-hunting crap. I'm ambivalent on whether using dogs on a leopard is unsporting. To me it is a tool like a gun to get your game if you have a fair chase hunt. I have no idea how many "hunters" are transported by truck to the "kill" spot but it sounds like more strident and overblown BS than anything. I did a mtn lion with hounds when I was 18 and found I didn't have the legs at the end of the day. We chased the cat all over hellandhighwater and it gave us the slip.

475,
Mark Egger is seen in one of the MS videos. He is the one who took the elephant. If I am correct, he was the one who saw the elephant from the ..... truck. I guess it was then a short persuit. Funny how things and perceptions change.
Anyhow, the actions stated in his letter are not at all wrong. As usual you get the odd PH who can offer you just that. It is just that no one will admit it. My hat off to all of those who have hunted leopards with dogs the true way. Shame on those who do the diesel-stalk until the leopard is up in a tree.
Regs K.

Mark also refused to hnt with MS any longer. Apparently, MS shot his hippo or something like that. I respect his opinion, but beg to differ. I invite him to come along on a dog hunt, and tell me its not sporting/ exciting. In fact, I had 2 clients hunting for leopard in Namibia as recent as last week, one hunted with dogs, the other only from bait. Only one got a leopard. Guess who got his cat? Well, if you think the guy with the dogs, you are wrong! The odgs had only 2 chases, on the first one the cat escaped into the park, and on the second the cat's tracks where crossed by a big troop of baboons. I only arrived home, so have not downloaded pics yet, but will post a trophy photo of the succesful hunter tomorrow if someone is interested.

I VOTE WITH THE OTHERS CHIMING IN.Let those who want to hunt leopard with the dogs have a go at it.At the end of the day the leopard is dead.Protect the species by quota.Let the one who has the cat on quota hunt it the way he or she chooses.Anything beyond that is simply an example of the attitude, "my way is better than your way".

there is a differance between a "hunter" and a "collector"---in my mind. That is the argument above.

a hunter is there for the experience --and the quality of the chase etc. not the head for the wall---the trophy is the least important part of the hunt.

the collector wants the head for the wall and less concerned as how he gets it-----most important factor is the sucess of taking a trophy.

thats my take --don't mean to offend but that's how I see it. Hunting with dogs when done properly is certainly a worthy way to hunt.

My leopard hunting experience includes one unsuccessful blind hunt in Zim and one successful hound hunt last year in Namibia. I can tell you that the hound hunt was ethical, exciting, and very challenging physically. We had several chases where spots beat us. We were successful on day ten. Perhaps there are unethical hound men out there. I haven't encountered or heard of any.

I for one don't buy Mark Egger's facts. And I certainly don't believe that hunters with dogs will kill anything and everything. That is why hunters choose to hunt with dogs: to be able to pick and choose the Leopard they are hunting. I would suggest that Egger read Craig Boddington's latest book on Leopard. I also don't believe his interpretation of the law regarding hunting with dogs in Namibia is correct. His post seems to be nothing more than a veiled "threat" with a lot of bunny hugging appeal. I wonder who he has sent it out to?

@ Karl
Any more info on the hippo-incident.
Egger and MS used to be big buddies and Egger was put on the "Sullivan-throne" to sell his movies. I think Egger even bought the .600 from MS if I recall that correctly. Big visits vice versa with Egger in Tanganjika and MS on Wabi...and all of a sudden it's no more selling of videos. Wonder what happend

I'm sorry I cannot believe all this "shoot from the hip, knee jerk" stuff I am hearing. The original point, as I read it, is this:
If hunting with dogs is significantly more successful than hunting over bait, then pretty sooon you will run out of Leopards. End of story.
That is the crux of the matter. The fact is, that in Namibia, where the Leopard is the top predator, hunting with dogs IS more successful than hunting over bait, from what I have heard. That is not to say hunting with dogs is 100%. When I was in Namibia, I hunted over bait and finally with dogs and was still not successful. But, the original point, in my opinion, is well taken.
Why do peope hunt with dogs? Because the success rate is higher!!! And all the original author is saying is that wiht that higher success rate, comes, guess what, depletion of resources.
Peter.

I hunted leopard in Wabi in the year 2001. Is a beautiful place, lot of plais game, great accomodation, but I never saw a leopard track around the baits.
And I havent notice that someone except Mark have killed a tom in Wabi.
Of course ther'are leopards in the area, specially in the bordering Waterberg national park, but maybe Mark dont like very much that the cats eat his roan and shot everytime he see some leopard.

UEG,

Your right on the money. Several years ago I was dicussing with Barrie Duckworth my desire to take only a very big leopard and his suggestion was a dog hunt. In the daylight he could be 100% sure that the leopard was the size I wanted.

Mr. Eggars assertions about dog hunts producing small and female leopards could be true in some cases but these animals being killed would be a product of a decision to shoot made between the hunter and the PH and having nothing to do with dog hunts. If a client on a traditional baited hunt shoots a small leopard it has nothing to do with the impala bait in the tree. If too many leopards are being killed then some stricter quotas need to be enforced and once again what does that have to do with dog hunts?

Personally I prefer the traditional baited hunt but having shot cougar with dogs I can only imagine a leopard hunt with dogs would very exciting.

quickshot,

I am a collector as far as my budget will allow. To state that I am less of a hunter or less ethical because of that is offensive to me and careless on your part.

Mark

In reading Mr. Eggars note, it sounded to me as if he were part and parcel of some large anti hunting organization. The emotional pleas that serve as logic and the rumor and hearsay that he passes off as fact.

Going to his website, however, one finds out that he is a safari outfitter. An outfitter, mind you, that proudly touts his leopard trophy density and quality.

Personally, given his background, I see no difference in his rant and in the diatribe that got Jim Zumbo into hot water. His plea can certainly be read as an indictment of all hunting in Africa.

Populations are controlled through quotas. And size, sex and age can also be subject to regulation.

I read this as a half assed attempt on Eggar's part to try to eliminate his competition. To paint them with a muddy brush so as to put them out of business.

I see nothing wrong with hunting with dogs. Hell, if you read literature on safaris past, you find out that the likes of Samuel Baker, J.A. Hunter and others found nothing wrong with hunting over dogs. In fact, there are some that could argue that hunting over bait is no more "ethical" than hunting with hounds.

I find Eggar's attack to be loathesome, especially since he is in the leopard hunting business. Looks like Africa has its own Zumbos.

Jim: You summed it up very well.

I for one would very much be interested in meeting the leopard who was "run until exhausted then killed by a pack of hounds."

Folks this is pure mambi bambi BS. Mr or MRS spots will tree or rock or den up first if they do get cornered and have to fight god help any pack of dogs on this planet.

Hound hunting is very ethical in that if your dogs tree or bay a cat and it isn't up to your standards you simply pull the dogs off and let it go.

It is one of the rare true forms of catch and release big game hunting.

PS

I once had a little female mountain lion kill two very good lion dogs and then defend her kill from two others. She weighed about 95 lbs. The fiesty little lady even stood her ground when I showed up. I can't even begin to wonder what a 150lb leopard with a bad attitude can do to a pack of hounds.

Are there quotas on Leopard in Namibia? Remember that is what we are talking about here.
I am sorry but to talk about "safaris past" makes no sense to me. Game was much more plentiful then. Could it not be that the author, because he is in the business, sees the writing on the wall if Leopards are hunted extensively using dogs?
As to the comparison with Zumbo, if you run with hyenas, then don't be surprised if they turn on you!
Peter.

Last time I checked (today), hunting leopards in Namibia with dogs was and is totally legal. Yes there are quotas and laws and Cites export quotas, etc. etc. etc. Hunting leopard is done by a number of ways: By chance encounter, by baiting (most popular today), by tracking (i.e. Bushmen) and by Dogs. Dogs are very efficient in that you pretty much know what you're hunting due to the track. Therefore, it can be more successful than baiting, chance encounter or tracking. However, it is no guarantee and is not a canned hunt as might have been implied. Hunting with dogs will not reduce the leopard population any more dramatically than the other methods as long as quotas are followed. What will reduce the population will be farmers shooting leopard without problem animal permits, poisoning, snares, and poaching. Unfortunately, the post by Mr. Egger is not hunter friendly and implies that dog hunts will kill all or drastically reduce leopard populations in Namibia and elsewhere. That is nonsense. He also implies that if we don't stop it, then the world community will step in and force changes similar to what we have seen with lion hunts in South Africa. Sometimes our own hunting fraternity can be our worst nightmare and this article is just one of those nightmares. Hunting leopard with dogs, by the way, is older than baiting. Baiting is one of the more recent inventions to hunt leopard, and may or may not include using artificial light, but the outcry for that is not forthcoming and it is perfectly legal in some countries, like Zimbabwe. Unfortunately, we don't need do gooders like Mr. Egger to stir up the pot with emotional mis-information. Shame on Mr. Egger.

quote:

What will reduce the population will be farmers shooting leopard without problem animal permits, poisoning, snares, and poaching.

100% true, UEG. As an example, one of the farmers on whose land I hunt, used to shoot 6-13 leopard per year as they where damaging his cattle breeding operations. I'm lucky to hunt 2 a year there, but this generates enough income for him to reconsider the senseless killing.

Of the 250 available CITES tags for 2006, 243 where used. Plenty more where shot by farmers. Maybe leopard trophy fees should be increased in Namibia to compensate the farmers losing cattle more, and hopefully have them reduce the number that they kill per year.

kamaatu, I have heard that the hippo charge on his last video, where he supposededly kicks up dirt to provoke the hippo to charge, was Mark Egger's hippo. Yes, he did buy the 600NE, and they where good friends, propably because Egger have hunted with MS on several occations. As far as can be established, Egger is a Austrian national that draws an absurd amount of money from the Austrian government because of some or other patent his father invented for them. As you propably know, Egger is not a very popular person in the hunting fraternity in Namibia.

quote:

As you propably know, Egger is not a very popular person in the hunting fraternity in Namibia.

Karl-I believe he's now gone international...

mark is from switzerland not for austria

This sounds like it was written by PETA, or ALF! Their old habit of posing as avid hunters is to drive a wedge between different factions of the hunting community, by getting them in fighting. I’d say this guy is using the tactics of the Animal rights idiots to down play the operations of his competitors, and garner a bigger slice of the pie for himself.

Anyone who believes this man doesn’t know what he is saying is pure BS, is at best naive! Since this man is an outfitter, and has hunted Africa for some time, you know he is aware of the quotas, and that cites permits are limited as well. Populations are determined by quotas, and the Leopard is one of the most successful species in Africa today. He is the coyote of Africa. For every one you see, there are fifty you never see. IMO Eggers is well aware of that fact. That alone should shine a light on his agenda! IMO, to feather his own nest, this guy is willing to make us targets of the most avid anti-hunting organizations in the world. His mention of the barring of hound hunting in England, one of the anti’s badges of success, garners their respect, and pulls them to his side. A tactic he learned for them, if not taught it to them first.

In the case of hunting cats of any kind with dogs, anyone who has ever followed dogs behind a big cat, knows you are in for a stint for sure, and the cat wins most of the time. One additional fact is when a leopard is bayed on the ground, a charge is almost a given, and when a leopard charges someone is going to be bit, if not several people. So much for the poor defenseless cat surrounded by the vicious dogs. The leopards kill dogs almost every season, and bite lots of hunters, that follow the dogs.

I used to run a string of 16 Black & Tan, and Walker lion, and bear dogs in New Mexico, and I can tell you, you stay with a pack of dogs on a hot lion trail, and you’ll be inviting a heart attack in 30 minutes, unless you are in shape that would out do a silverback gorilla. Corner a PUMA against a rock face where he has to go through the dogs to get away, and you better shoot straight, or you’ll lose him. Multiply the PUMA by 10, and you have mister spots. Anyone who says a leopard is at a disadvantage against a few skinny walkers, simply doesn’t know what he is talking about, or is purposefully lying, and you can guess which I think is the case with Mr. Eggers.

Any type of hunting can be done unethically, but I don’t think that is the motive for this news release. It seems we have a rat in the house, and in most cases rats can avoid the traps just so long, and then get their ass in a cramp!

Another well said post.