I am flying from Denver, CO to Joburg in Sept 2009. I can either fly from Denver to London (or Paris) then to Joburg OR I could fly Denver to JFK or Dulles and then to Joburg direct.

This is my first time to Africa and I wanted to ask what everyone thought was a better idea. Laying over in London or Paris would add a few hour layover but I'm wondering if it would help break up a long flight.

Thanks,

Jon

To be honest, I would just have Gracy Travel or Kathi's outfit, handle the travel reservations....I assume you are traveling with a rifle and they know all the ins and outs on an up to date basis, and are best able to give good current advice. Otherwise, someone who has made a similar trip lately will probably post soon, also try posting this under African Travel.

Actually, the United/Lufthansa flights from Denver to Frankfurt, and then down to Joberg are a much better combination.

These boys have more experience than me, but I flew Indianapolis to Atlanta to Joberg with NO problems. Give Delta some extreme consideration!

Mad Dog

I agree with JPenn. I've always used Gracy, but have heard great things about Kathi as well. I've heard negatives about going through London with firearms, but have never done it. Have had no problems going through Amsterdam. Don't know a thing about Paris.

Charles De Gaulle airport in Paris is the second worst I have been through, the worst being Jo'burg.

I've flown Atlanta-Washington Dulles-Jo'burg flights, Atlanta-Amsterdam-Jo'burg flights, and the Jo'burg, Paris, Atlanta flights. I can't say they are enjoyable but they aren't that bad either. I would hate to have to recheck my luggage because I stayed overnight in Europe.

Denver to Dulles to Joburg is a loooooong flight, but its probably better than Paris or London (that's a guess, I've done the Dulles to Joburg but not the other two).

If its cheap enough to go through Frankfurt, lay over for a half a day and catch a motel room, that is really the way to go. The airport in Frankfurt is easy to get around in with a hotel right across the street. They are used to Africa travel with firearms.

If you are going on to Zimbabwe, then you cannot take the guns through London. I used to do the London thing and liked the break of flying for a few hours, but if going to Zim it's a no deal due to the arms embargo. To J-burg or somewhere else it will work

Thanks everyone for your replies. I am not looking forward to a 16 hour flight from the US to Joburg but maybe in the long run it would be better than flying 8 hrs to Europe,sitting in an airport for a 5-8 hour layover followed by another 8 hour flight.

If you go via London and change airports Gatwick/Heathrow you will have to use a gun courier service. I have been well satisfied with Gracy.

My advice is to stay away from London and especially Paris, they are both slow and the French hardly speak English even at the airport (except the Arabs working there who are pleasant and speak excellent English).

If you want to go through Europe go with Zurich if possible (extremely nice airport) or Munich (the weissbier alone is worth it). Air France always loses stuff and British Airways don´t like guns. Lufthansa is OK, SAA is nice and even Turkish Airways are better than the f-cking French.

But going through Dallas is probably the best bet.

Just my 2c´s

Delta will begin nonstops out of ATL in the spring to JNB using 747-400s. SA stays on the verge of losing their rights to fly to the US for safety reasons according to some FAA types I spoke with. I used SAA several times and they seem to be deteriorating over time.(chech their hiring practices for both ends of the a/c) I had some real difficulties this year transiting JNB with a rifle that could have been rectified in 2 minutes but my rifle was 2 days late arriving in Bulawayo. Fly US or EURO airlines. If you must go through europe Frankfurt is a good choice. ENJOY! Adrian

I would fly to Atlanta from Denver, stay overnight, and then fly to Jo'burg the next day.

If you have to enter and leave an airport with firearms, there is no easier place than the State of Georgia.

Delta currently flies non-stop from Atlanta to Jo'burg except they stop at Dakar, which probably adds 3 hours to the flight and you aren't allowed off the plane. No problem. Eat dinner, watch 2 or 3 movies with the excellent entertainment system built into each seat, then pop a sleeping pill as you leave Dakar.

If they start flying without stopping at Dakar, that would be the only airline I would take. I heard the reason they don't do this is because of reciprocity with SAA, whose planes lack the range to do that.

I booked my own flight with British Airways THRU London on my trip this past May for a hunt in Namibia (thru Joberg). The hardest part of that trip was in and out of Joberg (and I used a courier/meet & greet service) and the SAA flight to and from Nam. Sure I had to give the British Air folks 72 hour advance notice that I was flying with firearms and ammo (and I did this 4 months before flying, and double checked that they had that info twice more before flying) and the day at the airport I had to fill out 1 extra piece of paper at the check in counter, but other than that I experienced no difficulty flying with BA with guns. Both times in London (flights were all in and out of Heathrow), I asked at plane boarding if my bags/firearms were on the next flight and they were very nice in checking on that for me. Are they like this all the time, I don't know, but my flight was a relative breeze compared to all the crap at the Joberg airport. I'm hoping to hunt in South Africa in 2010 and at this point I'll probably use BA again and probably make my own reservation again too.

Jon,

I prefer BA and recommend them to my clients. Statistics show that BA has the best record of any airline servicing Africa as far as guns and luggage arriving with the passengers. I took the Denver/Heathrow/JNB route in '07 with no hassles. You check your guns and luggage through to JNB and that is that. Simple! There is a layover in Heathrow but it breaks up the flight and allows you to walk around, stretch your legs, do some shopping etc. I enjoy it. Treat yourself to some oysters and champagne while your there. You are on vacation.

Mark

Curious as to how the airfares are shaping up for 2009, now that the price of oil has fallen back to $40. Both direct and via Europe. Anyone done their shopping yet?

I have flown through both Frankfurt and through Paris without any problems, and have stayed a day in Frankfurt and two full days and an overnight in Paris without any problems. Shawn at Gracy Travel made all of the arrangements without a hitch. I have also flown through Dulles and Atlanta, (all of these flights from Las Vegas), but I prefer the European routes because it breaks up the length of the flights and makes the trip more enjoyable. Plus, you can get in some sightseeing. I travel with my wife, so that makes the stops even more pleasant and worthwhile.

You will fall in love with Africa.

Some thoughts follow (more than you asked for and many that you have already anticipated )

1. Use one of the professional travel agencies mentioned in this thread. Be sure you know how to contact them from outside the US should you need help.

2. Take out trip interruption and delayed baggage insurance. It is cheap relative to benefit. Ask the travel agent for the best insurance company for your trip. If you have an Amex card, check out Amex benefits as well. (After more than 1M air miles, for the first time I insured a complicated itinerary last summer because of all the world-wide flight delays that were occurring, and sure enough, I missed en route flights and none of my Africa gear showed up. It was delivered back to me after I got home with some high value items missing. Hotels/food fully covered, reasonable replacement clothes in RSA covered for me and wife, high value items only partially covered. I bought my replacement clothes and boots at the Powder Keg in JNB. Excellent personalized service! (Blaser/Mauser and other dealer). BTW, I have stopped taking rifles to RSA after verifying that my PH has first-rate rifles/glass since I always take some sight-seeing time and don't want to have to hassle rifles around. If all I was doing was just the hunting, then I would take my battery.

3. If you are going into rugged country where a medevac might be required, consider Global Rescue or recommendation of your travel agent. Probably not needed if you are in RSA or Namibia unless you have a special medical condition requiring hospitalization in Europe/US. But don't rule out a really bad auto accident. You can read about Don Causey's (Hunting Report) $124K nightmare evacuation from Africa on the Web.

3. Ask your physician for advice and Rx for an appropriate sleeping med(s) for your route. There are good ones but your physician and you best know your own circadian rhythms. (With a lot of transpacific and west coast to Europe non-stops, my physician prescribes a combo short-acting and long-acting which I have used for travel for years. I get off the plane ready to go.)

4. Have your physician write out the generic names and dosages for all the meds you are taking in case you lose them and need to get refills (had my hand luggage/meds stolen once while, unimaginably, in Sydney immigration).

4. When going to RSA (usually on business), I always break my trip in Europe. It allows my internal clock to adjust (same time zone as RSA) and if you schedule correctly, you get to fly over Europe, north and central Africa while it is still daylight (look for the LD Elands while over Cameroun). I think I've used just about every airport that flies non-stop Europe to JNB. I'd have to agree that Zurich is probably the most efficient/comfortable airport (and very easy to get to town), but I almost always go via Paris and overnight or stay a day or two (just because I like France -- Paris and, more usually, the countryside. At the right time of year, there is very good big game hunting as well). Sorry that one of our members doesn't care for the French -- very hospitable in the country side even if their English is limited. You can find some nice little country inns not far from the airport (your travel agent can get the reservation) and real country French restaurants, truly reasonably priced. Don't stay at the international hotels at the airport (unless you want to feel like you never left home or unless the airline is paying for it). Out of Denver, an overnight Paris stay may be required. Check with your travel agent to see if the airline still pays for your Paris overnight.

5. While Delta is my principle airline for US mileage, I try to use Air France or KLM to Europe and onward bound. (AF/KLM are Delta mileage partners). I find the European carriers have better service in ALL classes. In my experience, Delta and SAA just don't compare on international flights -- yet. In any case, if you are traveling economy, have your travel agent get you seated in the most comfortable configuration on the most comfortable aircraft. The same carrier may use different aircraft on the same route. You don't want to get stuck in a poorly configured plane. The same can be true in business class. If you are part of an airline mileage program and have enough miles, consider using your miles to pay for an upgrade from economy to business. These are long flights and the difference in comfort level is well worth the miles. If you are not a member of a mileage program, become one for your RSA trip as you will get a considerable amount of miles. From time to time, the airlines put on promotions where you can buy miles for well less than the normal price, making an upgrade from Y to B relatively inexpensive.

6. If JNB is your last destination (not transiting), if you are not being met by your outfitter, may I suggest you have your travel agency or outfitter arrange for a meet-and-greet to get you out of the airport to wherever. Getting out of the airport these days is not something I would want to do as a first-timer. Even more so if you are traveling with your wife. First impressions are lasting impressions.

7. If you will be spending any time where cell phone service might be useful for calls within RSA or other country, get the "unlock" code for your cell phone from your US carrier (must be a 3G) and buy a South African sim card (cell phone shops are everywhere). The shop will usually install it for you if you wish -- but your cell phone must be unlocked. It can take weeks for your US carrier to give you the code, so request it early (you may have to move up the supervisory chain several levels b/4 they will give it to you) or you can pay $20 or so and have someone in Denver unlock it for you (google for a local code-breaker). Since you don't pay for incoming calls in most foreign countries (unless something has changed) you can let your family in they US know your local RSA tel # and they call you for a lot less than you can call them.

Hope some of these suggestions are useful

And now, my 2 cents.
See if you can get NW/KLM to either Minn. or Detroit then thru Amsterdam. Schipol is a great airport, they're as gun/hunter friendly as any in the world and then on to JNB. This june will be my 2nd on that route and I'm actually looking forward to it.
Stay out of France (on principal) and away from London with guns out of necessity - unless you are looking for a really unpleasant adventure.
Dave

Having done both, I can say that I much prefer going through Europe on the way from the US to Africa, as opposed to flying directly to Johannesburg.

You can take an overnight flight to Europe from the US east coast and sleep on the way over. Generally, the layover is at least 10-12 hours. You will arrive early in the morning. With your rifles and luggage checked straight through, you can leave the airport for a day trip in or around London, Paris, Amsterdam, Zurich or Frankfurt, etc. That equals fun.

Then you will take another overnight flight to Africa - and you can sleep on the way there too. You will arrive in pretty good shape, mentally and physically.

IMHO, that experience is a far, far better one than the 17 hour direct flight from the US to Jo'burg. I have found the direct flight to be boring, draining and physically tiring in the extreme. That equals no fun at all.

And definitely use a good hunting travel agent. I like and recommend Kathi Klimes.

People who have trouble with their rifles transiting Europe generally have not followed the rules - either the airline's or the government's. A good travel agent, like Kathi, who specializes in hunting trips, can and will make sure you avoid that.

mrlexma:

If you're going from J'burg to Zimbabwe, don't book on British Air. I have heard that they refuse to fly firearms into Zim. It's a Mugabe thing.

Interested
How do you use both a short and long sleeping pill?

Thanks

I used to commute to Joburg out of Miami back in the good old days when SAA operated the 747. Black empowerment and the aquisition of the A 340 makes that ATL/JNB ride the trip from Hell, particularly in coach. Haven't flown Delta on that route, but I think they're running a 767-300 or -400. It'll be much better when the 747-400 comes on. That will usually eliminate the Dakar fuel stop. Besides, it's a Boeing.

I, like many others, would prefer the European route. Last time I went down was NWA/KLM through AMS. Nooo problems, with a shiny new 777 from AMS to DAR.

BA has a brand new terminal at LHR. Friend of mine who just went through there said they have an on site, pay-by-the-hour hotel so you can catch a shower and a snooze.

Problem with guns arise when you arrive at any other London area airport than LHR, such as Gatwick or Stanstead and have to transfer firearms. A bonded service is required to move your weapons.

I'm going down to Arusha in July and will do the Delta/KLM route out of Orlando/ATL/AMS. I would avoid SAA completely, but I've made my feelings clear on that subject a couple of times on other posts. All airlines are not equal.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldcoyote:
Interested
How do you use both a short and long sleeping pill?

Thanks

Caution: You need a physician comfortable in dealing with sleep disorders/circadian rhythms/extended time zone changes who, presumably, is willing to prescribe such a combo without thinking that you are some sort of drug-seeker.

Everyone is different and my physician specializes in sleep disorders (and is a member of the State Medical Board -- so presumably no hack). Dosage is important. When he prescribes a combo, each dose is 1/2 of what it would be if I were taking only one med. Which meds and dosages are best for you is a decision best made between you and your physician, since other meds you may be taking could affect the choice.

My method is to take the long-acting med (and longer to take effect) about an hour before boarding (if I'm sure the flight is going to leave on time. Usually, by the time we get off the ground and settled in, 1-2 hours have passed, so this med is just beginning to kick in in my case (it could be longer or shorter for you). The next decision is when do I want to take the short-acting med to put me to sleep in about 30 minutes; after which the long-acting med will keep me asleep pretty much to destination. I have no med hang-overs when I deplane. In fact, I feel very vital. You may not, so there is a 3rd category of med to consider -- one to wake you up. I don't need it but some of my traveling colleagues do. So, if you want to skip dinner (or have it specially served to you right after take-off as they will do in biz class), I take the shortacting one a few minutes b/4 the first bite -- which means you have around 15-30 minutes to down your meal. Now this doesn't mean you black out in 15-30 minutes. In fact, if I set my mind to it, I can pretty much resist these meds (at least the ones I take) if I must do so due to unanticipated circumstance. This doesn't mean you might not be somewhat impaired ( don't drive a car an hour after you've taken this stuff -- no different than a DUI in my state, if you are in an accident)

OK, so what are the meds. Short acting would be in the class of Ambien (now a cheap generic called zolpidem), Lunesta, Sonata, etc. As a layman, I think you would want to consult with your physician to try these out at home to find out which is best for you. One has an awful metallic taste for me.

Long-acting meds (longer 1/2 life to keep you asleep)are usually in the class of benzodiazepines. The mere mention of a benzo to a provider unfamiliar with sleep disorders, etc., is likely to produce a negative reaction. Benzos can have some very bad side-effects and in some people are highly addictive -- which is why your physician is going to think carefully about whether you will use this med for the purpose intended. Your past medical history/med use will be an indicator to him. But he will undoubtedly limit the amount of such med he prescribes. However, you will need enough to try it a few times at home to see which one works best for you, and then try the combo. Using these meds for the first time on a flight to a foreign country without knowing what side effects may occur is not the way to go (any more than you would take an unfired rifle on a dangerous game hunt).

Finally, the wake-up med of choice among my traveling acquaintances seems to be Provigil (about $9/tablet). Allegedly it is the same med taken by military pilots flying non-stop missions half-way around the world. Again, your physican, rightly, will look at your med history and character b/4 prescribing this class of medication. And I doubt if he would prescribe more than just enough for the # of flight legs plus a couple for you to experiment with at home b/4 you go.

Caveat: I'm not a physician, just a long distance traveler who usually has a business apointment when I get off the plane after a long haul. None of the foregoing is intended as medical advice. It is merely the anecdotal experience of some of my traveling acquaintances and my own experience. It took some trial and error to get the right combo for me, but now I've used it for years.

Hope this was useful

If possible, avoid London and frankfurt: hidden green activists are at work in these airports.
In transit, I would recommand to avoid Paris; as previously said, french people do not speak english well; you may meet "sustainable development" activists or simply unprofessionnal agents ( I know it, I am french)

I personally have never had a problem in either Frankfurt or Paris, and I've spent day trips in both places and an overnighter in Paris, all with firearms accompanying me. As long as you have it worked out with your travel agent ahead of time I think that you will be fine. I have found the French and the Germans to be very friendly (at least to me and my wife). The only problem that I have had, occurred in the Charles DeGaulle Airport, when a man who looked like Charles Manson hacked on me as I walked by. He said something incoherant in French. I figured that he was just another loon which you can find anywhere in the world today.

This observation is based solely on what I see written here on AR but it seems that Europeans have more actual problems traveling through European cities/airports on safari than Americans. When American hunters have done their homework and jumped through the simple hoops they seem to have no problems transiting Europe on safari. Personally I have not even run into a negative attitude in London, Amsterdam or Paris and in fact have always been treated with respect. I cannot say the same for the US. Any travel hassles I have had have been in the good old USA.

Mark

Interested

Thank you. I have taken generic Ambien but wait until the plane's wheels are up.