One of my best friends just returned from a 21 day safari to Tanzania. His big rifle was a 450 Dakota loaded with 450gr North Fork SPs and 500gr Woodleigh solids, loaded to 2580fps and 2400fps respectively. He shot three buffalo with this rifle and the remainder of his game with his 300Win mag.
Two of the three were taken from basically broadside positions, while the third was taken with a direct frontal shot with shots being taken from 40yds to about 85yds. One bull ran about 40yds after being hit, the other two went right down...each was given a solid "finisher" after the hunter approached to a nearby position.
Both he and his PH, plus another PH who was there for several days were quite impressed with how that 450 hammered the buffalo, it seemingly knocked all the fight right out of them. The ONLY thing that bothered any of them was the fact that NONE of those three bullets punched on through the offside. Can't argue with the results but my friend and myself both wonder of the 450gr X bullet might be a better alternative...if the hunter wants an exit from those type of shots.

John - My impression of the NorthFork bullets, based on using it on buffalo (370gr from 416Rem at ~2500fps, about 35-yards), and from communications with Mike Brady, is that it opens quick and indeed "hits hard". But they are not going to give an exit wound on buffalo, even when loaded fast as Mike suggests. The buffalo I shot w/a high lung was hammered, rear paralyzed although the spine was not directly hit. Bullet under the skin far shoulder, huge hole and surrounding tissue damage/gel. I shot a roan (large antelope), full frontal at 200-yards, and the NF traveled 14-inches right through the spine w/o deflecting. They of course exited a leopard and two hyena. I "shot" a cow for leopard bait, side brain shot at 2-feet (!), and it didn't exit, but mushroomed just like the one recovered from the buffalo (what this says I don't know).

I personally feel the NF's are best if one does not want an exit, but for all energy to be absorbed by the buf, and backed-up with solids. Thanks for posting this, I'm using the 450gr in a few weeks on buffalo hopefully (w/Woodleigh solids also) and other game and was curious if others are having similar experiences in the field w/the NF as I had. Of the bullets I shot, the NF's are the most consistently accurate in my 416 and .458 Lott.

Of course, the benefit of the X is that one can take virtually any shot, and there is a lot to be said about this. Two schools of thought, both with similar end results most of the time I suspect.

John my friend,

Glad to see you back with us. I have not seen you post for quite a while.

We leave in about 8 hours time to Tanzania. And I have made a couple of modification - improvements?! - to our Walterhog bullets to try this year.

We have increased both the diameter and depth of the HP, and for this year I have loaded them to 2790 fps.

We will see if they have different effect on animls than the ones we tried last year. I don't expect these to penetrate as far our old one ones. We will give you all a full report when we are back.

Right about what? Using X bullets? Using monolithic softs?

Why is it they have to exit? Now that Ray is probably on the airplane and cannot defend himself I never have understood why the bullet has to exit. If you shoot the damn thing in the lungs or heart, like one is suppose to, who cares whether the bullet exits? If it exits it is more like shooting them with solids which don't work nearly as well as softs.

Saeed,
I've been quite busy these past months! Hope you guys have a great safari, please post the results as you can!

I shot 2 buffalo with my 450. I dont think it matters what bullet you use when you use a 450. They both went down flat like I had never seen with my 375.

Will,
You should know better!
If a bullet won't exit on a broadside shot, how do you know it will reach the vitals from a bad angle? If nothing but broadside shots are taken, I guess your logic would be great.
I'll agree that softs kill better than solids, but I'm not comfortable with a bullet that won't exit on broadside shots. Something like the X has to be the best compromise.

I believe that instead of blowing right thru an animal a big bullet should stay inside of him...Let the animal absorb all of the energy of the big boomer...If is passes thru damage is done but he did not absorb all of what can crush him...Many of us are obsessed with velocity..but is that the answer???
A solid is for penetration and that is total from all directions and angles...IMHO

Mike

Guys,

One argument for the soft that will exit on a broadside shot is you get two holes to as Uncle Elmer said "let the blood out and the wind in", so perhaps the buff bleeds out sooner and is dead that much faster.

Hide is flexible and can cover the entrance wound and prevent a blood trail. This can be a small deal or a big deal depending on circumstances.

On the other hand sometimes you don't want an exit on the broadside shot, such as a herd situation.

Ray has written about the North Fork bullets on buff, and was very happy with them. A search shoul turn it up here.

jim dodd

Will,

What John meant was, I was right for using the 375, a caliber that has been known to have killed more buffalo than all other so called "dangerous game" calibers combined

We are on the way to the airport, see you all in 3 weeks time.

Will,
I've seen more than a few buffalo killed with an old 375 Ackley and X bullets. Their chest cavities looked as if a bomb had went off in there! I think if the X bullet is given enough velocity it will create some seriously massive internal trauma.
I've used a lot of the Fail Safe bullets in several calibers and have noticed the same effects...from elk and brown bear over here to all manner of plains game in Africa. The animals go down as if struck by lightening, AND there is always an exit hole.

Andy,
I haven't been able to see JB's pictures yet, but when I do I'll see if we can get some of them up on the forums. He shot some incredibly good trophies...ie a 32" lesser kudu.

While I have never shot a buff, I think what you said makes sense.

Personally, just based on my experience with TBBCs on heavy plains game, they would be a grand choice for Buff in .375 and 300gr. bullets. Good penetration yet little chance of exiting- most found under the skin on far offside shoulder\elbow. I will experiment though, as the Barnes and others deserve some testing

I like an exit because it leaves a better blood trail to follow. But if your buff falls down immediately or after 40 yards, then an exit isn't really necessary.

A nice compromise is a flat nosed solid which kills better than a round nosed solid but will still exit.

Dan,

In 6 days I will give these three bullets a try,Bridger FN solid 450gr., a Barnes 450gr. X, and a NorthFork 450gr.SP..the two softs are followed up by Bridgers and for ele the Lott will be stoked up with Bridger's....

Mike

John,

Where do you shoot a 13 foot long croc with a 450 Dakota???? Jeez, I would pay to see that!

I was wondering when you were going to let us know about Joels success with the 450 Dakota. We need pictures!

I am surprised a PH would be disapointed by three one shot kills.

I have always thought that the easiest animal to track was the one that did not need tracking.

This happens most often with a high velocity bullet like the NF which penetrates to the far side but has so much frontal area that it cant quite exit the hide.

Do you know if the front-on shot hit the spine, and if it was recovered in the stomach or large or small intenstines? If it was past the four stomachs then it would make it through the pluera and into the chest from a going away shot. Even if it did not, the pelvis, femur, liver and kidneys are very vulnerable to a soft point from the rear.

Ive just ordered five more boxes of the 450 gr NF for my Dakota. So I am putting my money where my mouth is!

PS You should brag on your favorite caliber, the 300 magnum. Didnt Joel get 12 more one shot kills using the 200 gr NF?

Thanks for the report.

Andy

Andy-

Actually, his croc was a 14 footer but somewhere along the line another one bit about a foot off of it's tail! JB brained it from about 100yds with the 450, he was going to use the 300mag but his PH wanted to see what that cannon would do so he obliged!

His PH was VERY pleased with the results on buffalo, and the other PH who was along for a few days...well he swore he would have one made when he returns to his home in RSA this fall. It seems the 450 impressed him to no small degree, as his 470NE doesn't crumple the buff in such spectacular fashion!

As good as the results were, there was still some desire to see an exit wound. The Barnes X has been used so successfully by enough clients AND PHs that many regard it as the one bullet for everything solution...unless elephant is on the menu. I too thought the performance was fantastic but loading only one bullet would surely simplify things. I'll have to ask about where that frontal shot ended up, I know they found massive chest trauma in all three buffalo.

Yes, he did run up a good string of one shot kills with his 300Win mag, this on everything from eland and roan down to gazelles and a leopard. I think the number was 14. His PH told him to not bother coming back w/o those two rifles!

JB's results have once again proven to me that velocity is a good thing, and will greatly enhance the knockdown effect, provided the hunter uses "good" bullets.

Killing big animals is easy. Even a bad shot in the guts will eventually cause thier death. The real trick is finding them with as little effort and as much safety as possible.

An Exit hole allows this far better then an entrance alone. Having tracked and followed up wounded game now for much of my career I promise you the exit hole is a significant benifit to finding any game, and is an extremely important benifit for Dangerous game.

I have found that the slighlty expanding monolithic solids like the X bullet in my 458 Lott to create massive and free flowing blood trails much of the time. The bonded core type of bullets although deadly do not exit enough of the time to allow consistant blood trails.

A client/friend of mine shot quite a few plains game with his 416 and 400 grain swift Aframes this year. He recoverd bullets from Kudu, waterbuck, eland, wildebeast and buffalo. Some were just slightly quartering away. If the 416 will not drive a factroy loaded swift Aframe through a plains animal how can it be expected to have the desired results on a much bigger animal? I have seen 375HH exit the majortiy of time on Kudu, yet the bigger 416 soft point was under the skin on the exit side. All the shots were under 125 yards by the way.

I'm sure that there are those who will say if you found the bullets in the animal then they must have worked! They sure did kill those animals well, but with no blood trail to follow. It's awefully tense walking the bush with foot tacks alone as a follow up with only a tiny speck of blood here and there to confirm your on the right set of tracks.

When you have found that tiny speck of blood and the cash register has been rung up on an expensive trophy fee its a stressfull bit of tracking! I'm not sure why the 375HH with bonded bullets exit so much more often then the 416s do but it's been seen so many times now that it's not just coincidence or "luck". Its my opinion from the hundreds of animals I have seen shot with each that the rifles bigger them 40 caliber really benifit from monolithic bullets or X bullets due to their lack of exit holes with bonded core bullets. If I'm going to use a 40 plus caliber rifle it will have solids or X bullets in it for my hunting. With a 375HH I have no problem using a Swift Aframe or trophy bonded etc. bonded core style bullet. They exit with just the right amount of frequency to allow some comfort in follow ups.

These are of course just my opinions based on the hundreds of trophys we have taken at our lodge in South Africa, and on the dozens of big bears in Alaska I saw shot over the years when I worked up there. Others may have a different opinion based on there results.

With an increase in initial caliber, comes the potential for an increase in the frontal area of the expanded bullet, making it that just much more difficult to overcome the elasticity of the offside hide. For herd hunting, this may be desirable but the Barnes "X" can also contribute to the attainment of full penetration, should that be the goal. With larger bores, at lower initial velocities, the sharp petal edges tend to cut through better than other expanding bullets. With the 375(300gr.)/416(400gr.), higher initial velocities, in tandem with smaller expanded frontal areas, tend to punch through the tough, elastic offside hides on a more regular basis. Also here, lies increased potential for petal loss, which may serve to increase the likelihood of punching through the offside hide. I have found the "X" to provide optimum performance (buffalo) in .375/.416, when loaded to something less than maximum velocity, as petal retention is better, while penetration is excellent. I have found the "X" will serve to better ensure satisfactory penetration with the larger calibers, than other softs. Depending on case capacity in .458, one may be better served, in this regard, in opting for the faster 450 grain "X" over the heavy-for-caliber 500. With the .50's, a heavy-for-caliber "X" will serve to help ensure adequate penetration, from all angles, greatly enhancing overall performance. IMO, the "X" is a top choice in an expanding bullet for heavy game.

Bill,

If you reach the vitals the buff will die in any case but if you miss them you want good external bleeding for easier tracking.

It is for this reasons that solids of adequate mass, at moderate velocity and with a large meplat are a very sensible choice.

retreever,

The energy of the big boomer that the animal may absorbe from a non exiting bullet is always less than the recoil of your rifle. If you can stand the push of your gun so can the buffalo.

JJH-
What weight of X bullet do you use in the Lott? I have just ordered some of the new Triple Shock Xs in 450gr for tests in my own 450. A friend of mine spook to Randy Brooks some time ago and was advused to stay with the 450gr instead of the 500gr.
The Swift and TBBC bullets I used on buffalo never gave me any exits from my 416 Rigby. They did destroy a lot of the major organs and the buffalo didn't go far but those occurences have had me wondering ever since. If these new X bullets show decent accuracy I think my mind will be made up about what to use next time.

John,

I can e mail you my current loading data for the 450 Dakota.

Ive added alot of VV550 and IMR 4064 data, plus some with the 450 gr X. I was able to make 2600 fps from my short 21 1/2 inch barrel with the monometal solids and NF soft point using 108 gr VV550 and 100 gr 4064. (About 50 fps more than 98 gr RL-15 and less pressure too).

I would give Joel alot of credit for placing his shots with such a large caliber.

The NF's are surprisingly accurate. I shot four 2 x 1 and 3 x 1 inch groups with the 450 gr and 400 gr NF at a lased 180 yards on an 8 inch diameter bulls eye yesterday in a 10-12 mph quartering wind at about 85 degrees F. . . with a 3 X scope. And this was after chronographing 30 rounds off the bench!

I called the flyer that opened up two of the groups to three inches. Bad technique on my part on follow through off the front bag.

My 450 Dakota will shoot the NF's well with any ocl and powder. I have not been that lucky with the Barnes X but the Barnes RN solid and NF solid have been easy and group with the soft points. Another reason I like the NF.

Tell Joel he is a celebrity and you need to publish some photos here.

Andy

Nickudu is right- Re:

Quote:

---

I'm not sure why the 375HH with bonded bullets exit so much more often then the 416s do but it's been seen so many times now that it's not just coincidence or "luck".

---

It boils down to sectional density S.D. THe higher the SD, given the same bullet construction, the greater the penetration of that bullet.

For a .375 H&H or similar, a 300gr. Barnes X or any 300gr. bullet has an SD of .305 while a .416 350gr. Barnes X has an S.D. of .289. Based on SDs, the .375 should out-penetrate the .416.

Heavier bullets must be used in larger calibers to achieve equal or better SD than their smaller caliber counterparts, given equal bullet construction.

Sectional density takes on a undefined meaning after the bullet has expanded. The reason the X-bullets penetrate well is because they do not expnad that much.

But all this blood trail stuff is still based upon a screwed up shot, as no hard hit lung/heart shot buff is going to travel very far.

Using solids is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You get a good blood trail because a hole has been punched through the buff without doing as much damage as a good soft and the buff takes off, and now there is a good blood trail and a good blood trail is needed to find the buff. Go figure.

You ever have the feeling that you are the only sane person on this forum?

Actually, I have the ultimate secret solution to hunting and shooting buffalo, but I will not reveal it until I am elected President of the African Big Game Hunting Forum!

I have been using the 450's for three years now. I have no complaints!

JJH-
What's your velocity and loading?

I'm using 72 grains of RL-7 and it's shooting 2300 plus a little bit at 50deg F with my 22" pacnor barrel I also use a killer tight crimp with my lee factory crimp die

Canadian Lefty,

JJHack, correct me if I am wrong about your rifles.

But I think Lefty may have misunderstood your comment about your 375 exiting more often than a 416. JJ shoots a 270 gr Swift with a SD of .274 at 2800 fps + and the 416 shoots a 400 gr Swift with SD of .330 at 2,400 fps.

The 375 exits more just because it has less frontal area and more velocity. With a partition or solid base type bullet (Swift, TBBC, NF), they tend to penetrate more the faster you shoot them as they quit expanding when they hit the partition or solid base.

I wonder what the late George Hoffman would have to say about this thread. He told me before he passed away that he absolutely forbid his clients to use a FMJ with his 416 except on elephant. He always tried to get a sholder shot on buffalo so the 416 would not exit. He said it almost always passed through behind the shoulder. He was really concerned about shoot throughs.

Andy