quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Those big guns have significantly more stopping power.

+1, enough said.

Of course they do! When put in the right place! In 2012 I shot a cow elephant with a .600NE / 900 grain solid at 20 yards / frontal brain, missed the brain by a bit and she didn't even STUMBLE - AT ALL!!! Have it on film! Bigger is only better when you put in the right place!

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
[QUOTE].416 Ruger with 400 grain Hornady ammo at 2,600 FPS.

Was this velocity chronied or "advertised"?????

Published velocity for the 416 Ruger 400 gr is 2400 fps, not 2600 fps.

Correct, 2,400 FPS - my mistake. And they all still died just the same!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Those big guns have significantly more stopping power.

+1, enough said.

Of course they do! When put in the right place! In 2012 I shot a cow elephant with a .600NE / 900 grain solid at 20 yards / frontal brain, missed the brain by a bit and she didn't even STUMBLE - AT ALL!!! Have it on film! Bigger is only better when you put in the right place!

How terrible from that elephant!

Hasn't he read Taylor's Knockout??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Those big guns have significantly more stopping power.

+1, enough said.

Of course they do! When put in the right place! In 2012 I shot a cow elephant with a .600NE / 900 grain solid at 20 yards / frontal brain, missed the brain by a bit and she didn't even STUMBLE - AT ALL!!! Have it on film! Bigger is only better when you put in the right place!

How terrible from that elephant!

Hasn't he read Taylor's Knockout??

All I know Saeed is, that ole girl was not very impressed with the .600NE / 900 gr at 2,000 FPS.

One day two respectable gentlemen answered my similar question.

I've shot buffalo with the .375, .416 Rigby, 450NE, .458 Win at "normal" speed, then loaded the snot out of it and did it again. Finally made it into a Lott. Even popped one in the head with a .300 RUM.

Across 4 countries, three continents and 135 buffalo later a few patterns emerge.

If you shoot then in the head they die and fall down.

If you shoot them in the spine they fall down and don't die.

If you shoot them in the heart they will die somewhere.

If you shoot them through the lungs they will die when they feel like it.

If you break a shoulder you may find that that a three legged buffalo can run as fast as a 4 legged buffalo.

If you break his hips you will find that a two legged buffalo can't run at all.

If you shoot them with a good big gun they die faster than if you shoot them with a good small gun. That's on average there's a lot of variation between animals and situations.

I have no problem with CB or any other gun writer expressing thoughts on a multitude of makes, models and manufactures of firearms. MOST firearms manufactures these day make and sell a good product. They wouldn't be in business if they didn't. I think it's nice to see these guys going over ALL sorts of guns in their articles and providing insight for us users. It's just some here want to make a case about someone/something that in their highly superior ego mode feel it is beneath them. Hey, some folks are quite satisfied with a well made, good shooting Savage rifle and are glad gun writers comment on them. Write on CB and others, I for one appreciate it.

On topic. A .416 is good for Buff, along with many other capable calibers. Shot placement is soooooo overdone here on AR. Should be a given that shooting accurately is a foregone conclusion!!!

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
R8 Blaser & Sabatti "trash" Double Shooter

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Lava a,
I read that article too. That is an example of why I struggle to accept CB as a "great writer" . He used a lot of words to tell the world he does not have an opinion other than"yes, they will both do the job of you place the bullet correctly".

That article is the very reason I go on a rant about him and others out there. They rarely take a position and stand by it. They are politicians pandering to the next sponsor.

Since I have been an active and aware hunter, I have watched CB try to sell me Dakota rifles (on Boddington on Buffalo DVD), Ruger Number 1 rifles he endorsed, CZ rifles now and I believe Mossberg or Savage in the recent past.

He and others endorse anything for money. I see an article like this in a similar light.

He and others get paid "by the word", then fill up magazines with obvious drivel that never really tells you anything....

I grow weary of this....

Sorry for the rant......

Blair:

Only exits I got with the 400 grain Swift A-Frame were on leopard, sable, kongoni, and bushpig. No passthroughs on buffalo or eland.

Maybe this article was written before he and some buddies tested, the at the time, brand new 370 sako magnum(9.3x66) on buffalo because he did mention that he had never tried a 9.3 on buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Blair:

Only exits I got with the 400 grain Swift A-Frame were on leopard, sable, kongoni, and bushpig. No passthroughs on buffalo or eland.

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
Maybe this article was written before he and some buddies tested, the at the time, brand new 370 sako magnum(9.3x66) on buffalo because he did mention that he had never tried a 9.3 on buffalo.

And the answer would be exactly the same.

Dead buffalo!

Blair, I would point out that none of the buffalo or the eland were perfectly broadside, the buffalo in particular. The eland was only slightly quartering away and the bullet was against the hide on the far side. Might have exited if the bull was perfectly broadside. Don't think it would on a buffalo unless perhaps perfectly broadside and completely behind the shoulder. Not a shot I would intentionally make.

One uses a bullet and caliber on one buffalo.

One has an opinion.

One uses a bullet and a certain caliber on 10 buffalo.

One has a certain opinion of what can happen.

One shoots a 100 buffalo with several calibers, and several bullets.

One is left aghast at all the difference in performance of all the calibers and bullets.

If I remember correctly the late Allen Day had problems with the functioning of his 458 so shot both buffalo without issue using 300 Winchester and 180 grain Failsafe.

Only a guess on my part but I wonder if the 458 stuffing up made him become a D'Arcy Eclols man. If JohnS is still around he would know.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Blair, I would point out that none of the buffalo or the eland were perfectly broadside, the buffalo in particular. The eland was only slightly quartering away and the bullet was against the hide on the far side. Might have exited if the bull was perfectly broadside. Don't think it would on a buffalo unless perhaps perfectly broadside and completely behind the shoulder. Not a shot I would intentionally make.

No it's not the shot to make on a buffalo..

Performance on PG by the A-Frame is spectacular.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:
If I remember correctly the late Allen Day had problems with the functioning of his 458 so shot both buffalo without issue using 300 Winchester and 180 grain Failsafe.

Only a guess on my part but I wonder if the 458 stuffing up made him become a D'Arcy Eclols man. If JohnS is still around he would know.

Didn't John Siegler say that the improved 375's and 416/458's made a hell of a difference on stopping power over the standard 375 H&H?

I've only shot three buffalo - one with a .416 Remington & two with a .458 Lott, so I'm no buffalo expert. But, I've shot numerous game using the Swift A-Frame in various calibers, & it's the only bullet I will use. A GREAT bullet - it's never failed me. The buff that was shot with the .416 Remington (at 85 yards with an A-Frame) dropped in it's tracks (a lung shot, not a head shot).

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
I've only shot three buffalo - one with a .416 Remington & two with a .458 Lott, so I'm no buffalo expert. But, I've shot numerous game using the Swift A-Frame in various calibers, & it's the only bullet I will use. A GREAT bullet - it's never failed me. The buff that was shot with the .416 Remington (at 85 yards with an A-Frame) dropped in it's tracks (a lung shot, not a head shot).

Exactly!

And shoot 10 buffalo in exactly the same place with exactly the same bullet from the same rifle, and you might get 10 different results.

Unless one hits the CNS, nothing is guaranteed, with buffalo or any other animal.

Selby used .416 RN solids for near 50 yrs of backing clients on DG and DG culling duties.
I wouldn't like to even hazard a guess how much large DG he has killed,
yet in all that time he used a bullet frontal area that was considerably smaller than a .30cal expanded soft.

Selby considered .416 bore with non-expanding solids, as all the gun he ever needed in his lengthy PH career.


" There appears to be a trend today that 'bigger is better' regarding big game rifles
how little one hears about correct shot placement, and learning to shoot a rifle well
the idea seems to be get the biggest cannon you can and 'blast it into the bag'...... If not hit right it won't wind up in the bag!!! "

- Harry Selby

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Selby used .416 RN solids for near 50 yrs of backing clients on DG and DG culling duties.
I wouldn't like to even hazard a guess how much large DG he has killed,
yet in all that time he used a bullet frontal area that was considerably smaller than a .30cal expanded soft.

Selby considered .416 bore with non-expanding solids, as all the gun he ever needed in his lengthy PH career.


" There appears to be a trend today that 'bigger is better' regarding big game rifles
how little one hears about correct shot placement, and learning to shoot a rifle well
the idea seems to be get the biggest cannon you can and 'blast it into the bag'...... If not hit right it won't wind up in the bag!!! "

- Harry Selby

I remember Selby has always recommended the 375H&H??!!

Now, how about your own experience with hunting in Africa??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


I remember Selby has always recommended the 375H&H??!!

Selby said the .375 was the better choice for many novice recreational hunters ,
cause in his PH career experience, most could not properly shoot a higher recoiling big-bore to good effect.

Selby reported that when clients started using the easier to shoot .375 more and more,
he noticed cleaner quicker kills, and less 'follow up' tasks as a PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Now, how about your own experience with hunting in Africa??

You yourself have said that shooting a heap of cape buffalo is just like a person shooting a heap of deer.
have you changed your mind on that?

***personally, the sober minded findings Mr.Selby has shared after his 50 + yrs of full season PHs duties,
is realistically more than enough for anyone to gain valuable knowledge from regarding calibre selection,
I find little value in the often disjointed dribs & drabs results of calibre performance reports by a string of occasional holiday hunters.

Many of the posts here have rightly pointed how how difficult it is to compare the performance of different cartridges and bullets on game, the reason of course is that the conditions are not controllable for comparative testing on live animals.

Back when the US military was looking for a suitable handgun cartridge to replace their 38 calibre cartridge of the time which had proven ineffective in stopping determined men, they conducted testing of handguns in the Los Angeles stock yards (without looking up the article I think it was Los Angeles but it is of no matter where it was). They shot cattle beasts and pigs that were to be slaughtered at close range in the abdomen with a variety of handguns and their cartridges using FMJ bullets as of course that is all that could be used against men in war. They shot in the abdomen to gauge the shock effect of the bullets, again because under armed conflict conditions it is the most likely place where men aim and where men are hit with a handgun.

A maximum of 10 shots were fired and if the beast had not dropped by then it was slaughtered in the normal fashion. Out of all the cartridges used which included the 9mms and the 45 Auto, the British 455 Webley with the heavy slow 265gr bullet proved the best with the beasts showing great shock and distress and usually dropping by the 3rd shot. The military of course went with the 45 auto as it suited some of the other criteria better.

The 455 Webley bullet is not a blunt nosed profile but you could compare it with the Kynoch profile of most of big dangerous game bullets they produced. This testing regime although nothing to do with African hunting does show that true comparisons of the effectiveness of different cartridges can be made but only under strictly controlled conditions, not by a whole bunch of hunters with a bunch of guns and a bunch of bullets in the field. Hence we will always have a topic for round the campfire or on forums

BTW, the results of those military trials on live animals were borne out in the field with the 455 Webley proving to be one of, if not thee best man stopping handgun cartridges used in those early conflicts.

quote:

Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:

Didn't John Siegler say that the improved 375's and 416/458's made a hell of a difference on stopping power over the standard 375 H&H?

Yes, John on a couple of trips with the 375 H&H and his mate who had the 375 AI and John thought the difference was significant and to the point he had an Echols done in 375 Wby.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Now, how about your own experience with hunting in Africa??

Saeed,

What has always had me wondering on AR is you have probably shot more buffalo than the whole forum combined, yet the 375 RUM does get a much of wrap.

What is funny though is the 416 Rigby gets the big nod over the 416 Remington because it can be lower pressure and no belt. That is exactly the same comparison to a 375 RUM loaded back compared to the 375 H&H.

If memory serves me your 375/404s are loaded back somewhat.

When it comes to experience on dangerous game few have that of the old ivory hunters like Nychens or that of Ph's like Hunter and many others.It seems that ALL will tell you that the bigger the cartridge the greater the stopping power.

Doesn't sectional density and impact velocity have something to do with stopping power?

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Now, how about your own experience with hunting in Africa??

Saeed,

What has always had me wondering on AR is you have probably shot more buffalo than the whole forum combined, yet the 375 RUM does get a much of wrap.

What is funny though is the 416 Rigby gets the big nod over the 416 Remington because it can be lower pressure and no belt. That is exactly the same comparison to a 375 RUM loaded back compared to the 375 H&H.

If memory serves me your 375/404s are loaded back somewhat.

How ironic is that; a wildcat version of the 375RUM and the Remington round is as dead as doornail , sales wise.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
I've only shot three buffalo - one with a .416 Remington & two with a .458 Lott, so I'm no buffalo expert. But, I've shot numerous game using the Swift A-Frame in various calibers, & it's the only bullet I will use. A GREAT bullet - it's never failed me. The buff that was shot with the .416 Remington (at 85 yards with an A-Frame) dropped in it's tracks (a lung shot, not a head shot).

Exactly!

And shoot 10 buffalo in exactly the same place with exactly the same bullet from the same rifle, and you might get 10 different results.

Unless one hits the CNS, nothing is guaranteed, with buffalo or any other animal.

Saeed,

If you couldn't shoot your Walterhog bullets for a season's buffalo busting, what commercial bullet would you pick?

Any copper made bullet like the Barnes.

I would not use any bullet that had lead in it if I had a choice.

I have used the Barnes X before, and had great success with them.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Doesn't sectional density and impact velocity have something to do with stopping power?

Along with proper shot placement gets the job done.

Traditional bullets have worked fine for decades.
The need for special bullets arises when one is not hunting normally or in the traditional stalking fashion.An example being shooting game from extended distances.This would require the choice of a long range cartridge-ones with high velocity, reduced bullet diameter and weight.Such a bullet would need to be a solid or solid like.

quote:

If you shoot then in the head they die and fall down.

If you shoot them in the spine they fall down and don't die.

If you shoot them in the heart they will die somewhere.

If you shoot them through the lungs they will die when they feel like it.

If you break a shoulder you may find that that a three legged buffalo can run as fast as a 4 legged buffalo.

If you break his hips you will find that a two legged buffalo can't run at all.

If you shoot them with a good big gun they die faster than if you shoot them with a good small gun. That's on average there's a lot of variation between animals and situations.

Mostly true there. I would substitute brain for head in the first proverb. Otherwise, pretty accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:

How ironic is that; a wildcat version of the 375RUM and the Remington round is as dead as doornail , sales wise.

I suspect if the 375 RUM had been chambered in the M70 or CZ it would have got a better run. Just look at the 416 Rems on Big Bores and I think about all of them are M70, not a Rem 700 in sight.

I guess you are now at the airport for annual Paris trip

Originally posted by Shootaway:

quote:

Traditional bullets have worked fine for decades.The need for special bullets arises when one is not hunting normally or in the traditional stalking fashion.An example being shooting game from extended distances.This would require the choice of a long range cartridge-ones with high velocity, reduced bullet diameter and weight.Such a bullet would need to be a solid or solid like.

No "special bullets" necessary in my opinion. If we were hunting with a "reduced diameter" bullets, it wouldn't be a .416. I fail to see the need for a smaller caliber, especially with large game. And, I cannot imagine why long range would necessitate a solid; the opposite in fact.

Other than increasing penetration on large dangerous game, the only purpose I can think of for a solid is to prevent unnecessary damage to small game by expanding bullets, especially at close ranges. Given that we are not likely to be sniping at elephant or buffalo at long range, the need for a solid on smaller game decreases as the range increases.

Plus, I have found that my solids generally hit a bit lower than softs at 100 yards and beyond. Probably because the softs are generally a spire point and the solids are either round nosed, or a flat-tipped. So solids are not my "long-range" choice.

I'll stick with a .416 soft to 200 yards. Dead on at 100, 6" low at 200. It's only 21" low at 300, so that's not out of the realm of possibility. And, I still think the Swift A-Frames are the best .416 soft I've ever used, although the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw is a close second and the Nosler Partition works in most cases, I just don't prefer it for frontal shots on buffalo.