For PH's that work dogs to retrive wounded animals or otherwise locate game, what do you consider acceptable "correction" of those dogs in view of clients, or for that matter out of their view? Hunting dogs, even great ones, will, often times not please their owners/handlers for one reason or another.

Not a direct response to your question, but I suspect I know where you are headed. I was hunting with a PH years ago who "corrected" his dog with what I considered a brutal and inhumane whipping. The man was otherwise a gentle fellow.

I take it you witnessed something unsavory on a recent hunt? I too have seen "corrections" that made me uncomfortable or downright pissed for that matter.

I'm not a P.H but my working dogs are on display every time I go beating/flushing call it what one will on British driven bird/small game shooting. Chastisement in public or during training should in my opinion amount to no more than a moderate scruff held shake. Not rattle the dogs brain to bits, simply shake to dispel a hunting dogs red mist. The training of any dog should be 95% instruction and 5% correction. I've had flushing dogs and deer tracking dogs and they have been out on high value commercial days and if my training has been up to par then touch wood they have never let me down. Despite being a peaceful man I would take exception to any man who took his shortcomings as a dog trainer out on his dog.

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Millar:
Despite being a peaceful man I would take exception to any man who took his shortcomings as a dog trainer out on his dog.

+1!!

I love dogs about as much as I do anything in this world and I hate to see them mistreated in any way.

I hunted in the years ago in SA with a PH who beat his dog after it ran off on a scent trail.
After that the dog wouldn't go to him which made him even more angry. It was obvious that he knew little about training a dog. It did put a damper on my hunt & I would never again book with him.

I run hounds and blood dogs professionally. If the dog is not doing what it is meant to, then take it out the field. Hunting time is not for training and training time is not for clients to be involved in.

I personally don't hit dogs anymore, I use electronic collars that are far more effective than any beating you could give a dog. The main reason they work is that they work at a distance and your body language is not confused by the dog as an attack at the moment of reprimand.

You'd be surprised how many "dog" people have no idea how a dog works or how to train one.

Unfortunately, many of us have witnessed these.... as mentioned above, take the dog out of the field. I personally take the PH aside and tell him I don't care to see it, never had it happen twice (in front of me).

Unless you have trained multiple working dogs at multiple disciplines in your life...you should be careful in passing judgement. Just as we have gone too far to the left in disciplining our children...dogs have been given (artificially) more human like traits than are real. Watch how wild canines inflict discipline within their own ranks.

All dogs are different...but they definitely work on a hierarchy system...and...with working dogs...the handler can be the only Alfa.

With different breeds and different personalities...this can mean different amounts of assertion.

The ole phrase that if you have not walked a mile in a man's shoes definitely applies here.

Abuse is abuse no doubt...BUT IT CAN BE A FINE LINE TO WALK. Be careful in your criticism.

I currently run 4 working cocker spaniels and one sheep dog. Each of them has a different character and they all live inside my house. I am Alpha dog by strength of personality not through physical aggression. My dogs show me respect and affection and I would put myself in harms way to protect them from harm. I have seen many 'dog men' who did not deserve the affection of a pet rock.I do accept that giving canines human attributes is a mistake but I do not accept a dog is just a tool of the trade that may be treated without regard for its sensibilities any more so than a tradesman would leave his tools out in the rain. Affection, training, discipline and reward are all concepts a dog can understand. One senseless(to the 'stupid' dog) beating can undo all the relationships built thus far in its development.
To get back to the O.P I would tell my P.H that I have British sensibilities regarding dog welfare and would prefer to hunt without that dog again or alter my hunt if the dogs had been intrinsic.

BANG ON ANGUS!!!!

I am not necessarily disagreeing with Angus...but at different times in my life...I have had as many as 25 trained working dogs...in multiple professions. Cow dogs, hog dogs, coon dogs (trailing hounds), cat dogs, pointers, and retrievers. All of my dogs like me and I like them. Many of my dogs would have walked through fire for me. Some have lived in the house...others the kennel. You asked...I am telling you the truth...be careful in passing judgement unless you have walked a mile in that dog handlers shoes.

Without doubt the Electronic Collar, PROPERLY used and understood, is the greatest training device you can use. In my expericence the majority of people do no understand when and where to use the collar. Having spent several summers on the Canadian prairies helping one of the greatest bird dog handlers ever I came to understand when, where and how much to use the Tritronics collar. We trained strictly from horse back and worked as many as 12-15 dogs at a time. Would love to be young again and repeat some of those experiences....Stockdoc

Electronic collars are sum what frowned upon in Great Britain, granted we do not have some of the challenges faced by others such as snake proofing dogs and other fierce/venomous creatures. However in our small congested land the standard of dog handling is necessarily high, livestock proofing being a prime requirement. Our training revolves around very small increments of advancement from an early age with the dogs actually welcoming training sessions as a chance to please their handler and they welcome the challenges.The concept of breaking an unworked semi mature dog is as outmoded as breaking an adult horse (our foals are handled from birth and incrementally trained).
I have trained Border collies, Labradors, English and Cocker spaniels and a Teckel and none have ever over 30 years had more than a shake to curb either hunting red mist or youthful exuberance and I am proud to know many more handlers who can claim the same over a greater number of dogs, more years and with greater acclaim. I stand by my words, don't take your failings out on the dog.

Angus,
How many Black-mouthed Curs, Leopard Dogs, Lacy's, or Catahoula's have you trained to work as a group to bay and hold a set of feral half Brahman cattle in some of the roughest terrain on Earth?

How many Of the same above have you trained to bay and hold a set of feral hogs?

How many hounds have you trained to trail and tree coons, bobcat, mountain lion in vast multihundred to multithousand acre areas.

These type of dogs require different correction than a Shoe Polisher.

As I have stated above...until you have walked a mile in a man's shoes...might want to think about passing judgement on him???

BTW...I am sure you are an accomplished handler and am sure I could learn a thing or two from you.

Cow-trader,
I am likewise certain that you have knowledge of dog uses and training that are alien to a Brit, yet they would fascinate me. All forms of dog use the world over are of interest to me. I guess all I was really trying to say is that every dog deserves to be treated fairly and not be punished for that which it does not comprehend.

Agreed!

I don't try and tell anyone how they should discipline and train their dogs or their children. If I find the method unacceptable I can and will voice my opinion and no longer associate myself with situations that would require me to be involved in viewing such actions that I do not approve.

There are people that I no longer hunt with and their are people whose children are no longer welcome in our home. The list of unwelcome children is quite a bit larger.

I was raised in the environment that cow-trader speaks of and completely understand what he is talking about. I have also participated in the type of dog handling experience that Angus is talking about and I understand it and greatly prefer it.

I am not judging either as it would not be fair. The environment and situation of each are extremely different.

Like with most things it swings both ways. If your dog is not ready for the field it should not be there, especially with paying clients. However my dogs regularly save the day and are an asset to my business. Training is an ongoing occurrence and every bit of exposure is valuable to the dogs. I tend to let young dogs go with, but only after basic training and then initially on a leash. Correction has to occur on site but should be done with a little sensitivity of the surrounds. Any experienced handler should be able to weigh up the situation and act correctly to the specific needs and requirements and history of the dog. I also believe never to interfere between a man and his dog.

Somewhat related to the OP is my experience with a New Mexico elk, deer and lion guide. His pack and riding stock are mules. After two trips with him I decided that I simply could not hunt with him any longer. I know nothing about mules and less about how to correct them, but several things I saw went beyond any sensible act, at least in my mind. I may very well be wrong, but since it is my choice to make, I no longer hunt with him.

Angus, what is meant by the term "hunting red mist"?

When the scent of game is so heavy in the dogs nose that it draws a curtain over its training and it begins to revert to its inherent rather than taught behaviour. For instance, our dogs are taught to sit to the flushing of game, to visually mark the fall or if game falls beyond the dogs sight then it awaits guidance to the fallen/running wounded game. On occasion young dogs after a hot hunt will flush, pursue and should the game be shot retrieve all without instruction. Quite clever you may think but this rapidly degenerates into uncontrolled pursuit, flushing out of range, dropping of retrieved game to pursue fresh scent etc. I know 'red mist' is also a U.S varmint shooting term but it is used over here as a description of rage/loss of control. If I had a better grasp of words I would love to give a better description but I hope this will begin to clear up the phrase.

Since this was posted in the African Hunting Forum...my initial thought was that the OP's experience may have been from hunting Leopard with dogs.

Maybe an incorrect assumption...not sure.

Dog's used to bay very wild and aggressive animals...tend to be very tough...they have to be to do their job. Just in the course of a days work...they sustain trauma and it goes un-noticed...due to their toughness.

Angus suggests "a shaking" is enough correction when needed for his cockers.

My point is that with dangerous game dogs...it may be appropriate to use more force to get their attention than "a shaking". Some of these dogs (even some of the very best) when in the heat of the chase/battle...will show aggression (significantly) to their handler if reprimanded. A handler which it at other times adores. It is imperitive with these type of dogs to maintain alpha status...regardless of what it takes. Just my $0.02 from someone who has owed and trained some of the worlds greatest dogs to catch feral cattle. Those dogs were tools of my trade but also valued friends.

Back in my "dog days" I had great results with an Innotek Track n Train. One handset ran two collars, with stimulation, tone and bird trap options for each. The stimulation ran from one to ten, with one being a tap on the neck and 10 drawing tears and snot (from me, I never did 10 on the dogs!). The tone features were great with options of, on command beep, steady beep, double, and point-only beep.

I didn't use the collar to shortcut the basics, but it was very useful on a reasonably trained-up dog. After a few sessions, the stimulation is usually replaced with a beep. Seems that the most important thing with collars is to strike a balance between letting the dog know that you dont have to be right beside them to have control and letting the dog hunt (i.e. don't hack the dog).

Thanks Angus, I understand completely.

Africa can be brutal and I guess dogs don't get a pass. On a recent hunt I watched a Game Scout repeatedly slap two poachers in the face, beat the bottoms of their feet with a stick, and then let them go. Naturally I didn't dare comment. Hey, maybe they have it right. I think these kids here in the States that are involved in the "knockout game" deserve a swift caning on the spot!

quote:

Originally posted by cow-trader:
Unless you have trained multiple working dogs at multiple disciplines in your life...you should be careful in passing judgement. Just as we have gone too far to the left in disciplining our children...dogs have been given (artificially) more human like traits than are real. Watch how wild canines inflict discipline within their own ranks.

All dogs are different...but they definitely work on a hierarchy system...and...with working dogs...the handler can be the only Alfa.

With different breeds and different personalities...this can mean different amounts of assertion.

The ole phrase that if you have not walked a mile in a man's shoes definitely applies here.

Abuse is abuse no doubt...BUT IT CAN BE A FINE LINE TO WALK. Be careful in your criticism.

Amen brother!!! Couldnt have said it any better myself.

I know that at least among American retrievers, there can be a world of difference in the neededdiscipline for a male Chesapeake retriever as opposed to say, a female Golden.

Actually, some just do need some pain in order to learn preferred behavior, and of course we've all seen working dogs react to nothing more than a tone of voice.

I learned the hard way that too much physical discipline can be very damaging to working dogs performance.

As others have said, were I a client hunter and uncomfortable with the viewed discipline on the dog, I'd just say so and ask that I not be subject to it.

Really not an easy topic. I have some experience with German Shepherds and attack training...I have 30 years training GSPs. The fact is even with a high level of training, some dogs need a soft hand, and others need a reprimand sharp enough to make them yelp. With some GSPs, especially German Bloodlines, this can require some effort. When a dog is beaten due to the handler being frustrated, or in an equally emotional state - then thats not doing the dog or the handler any good. So if you are feeling emotional due to something the dog has done, dont discipline but rather put a lead on and have the dog at heel for the rest of the hunt. You will gain more. If you are a PH, spend the time and get it sorted before you take clients out. E collar to be used for training and only once the dog knows what is required and it is a discipline issue. Other wise the training is insufficient.. Please dont think that because a lab or a spaniel requires only a shake on the neck that all dogs , or breeds require the same level of discipline. A lot of words but hope this helps someone. More Training less hunting for the first 3 years...then you have a dog which only requires occasional discipline - what a pleasure!