Sadly the vast majority of RSA Lion 'hunts' are canned and the closest to a truly wild Lion hunt here is in areas adjacent to the parks, which means the animals are habituated to vehicles and to a lesser extent people.



The area we hunt in Selous has some of the best truly wild Lion populations I've ever seen. We hear them from camp most nights and see them on a very regular basis, but Selous Lions are typically very lacking in the mane department. The areas we use in Burigi & Masailand have good manes, but are not so numerous.......having said that the last time I was in Burigi we had one stroll right through camp as we having lunch one day. I don't know who got the biggest suprise, us or the Lion.

I would reccomend you look at Bundu Safaris (watch out there are two such organizations). Paul Jelonek is the PH. # 828-524-7428. I hunted buffalo with him on the Kilombero(Tanzania) last year and it was great. We saw lions(two big males and a lioness or two) several times and heard them every night. I know for a fact that he took the SCI #3 lion two or three years ago and as I was looking through the Barnes reloading manual I saw his picture with a client with the #4 SCI lion. He has a good area or Dang good luck! Let us know how you do. "D"

I find it really interesting how the hunting of lion has come to the forefront in recent months. There is no doubt that lion is currently the most important hunting trophy in Africa today!

Which leads me to my question: Where to hunt lions?

The list of countries that offer a reasonable chance at success in hunting lions is really getting shorter and shorter. If we remove RSA because of the canning element, Botswana because of the ban, Zimbabwe because of the recent reports highlighted by Terry's post that leaves Zambia (not without it's own problems of hunting concessions and illegal operators), Mozambique, Tanzania, C.A.R., Namibia, Cameroon, maybe Congo and a couple more Western African countries (Chad?).

Out of these, which in your opinion offers the best chance of shooting a great trophy (black-nose theory applies ) and why?

Happy hunting!

Bwanamich,

One of these days when we get caught up and the political situation stablizes we will open a concession in the Ogaden Desert. There are some very nice specimens there.

Rich Elliott

Bwana,

I would go to Tanzania for the most lions of better quality.

jim

I'd pick the Luangwa Valley of Zambia, because I'm booked for an 18-day hunt there this year



I selected Zambia because of: (a) availability of licenses in areas that were hunted last year for the first time in two to three years; (b) reported "large" (relative term) populations of mature males combined with sustainable quotas; (c) a documented 100% success last year on the prime-prime concessions; (d) ease of dealing direct with the concession holder and PH with good reputations; (e) the fact that a hunt can/could be booked for 18-days in some areas; and (f) the day rates and misc costs were not yet at the same level as in Tanz although that may change as the better concessions are booked out to 2006/2007 now as I was told. This being said, there is certainly no guarantee anywhere. All one can do is try to make an educated decision, hunt hard and hope for some luck.

Bwana,

In my limited experience I would say your chances are very good of shooting A lion in selected areas of Zim, Zambia and Tanzania are quite good if you have enough time to put into the hunt. Getting a poke at that 6-7 year old specimen with a mature mane may be a completely different story. It takes a dedicated hunter to not shoot a young lion when he weighs 400 pounds +,has a full collar mane, he's broadside under the bait and the PH says "shoot". Seems like we've beaten this thread to death before. HA!!!

Regards,

Mark

Bwana,

Sorry! I got off on a small rant. If I try again for lion it will be in Tanzania for the big blond monster I saw but couldn't kill. Actually I have had an opportunity to kill a "shooter" lion each time I have tried. Lion just take time and willlingness to make the safari about hunting them.

Regards,

Mark

I can get about anyone a very good Lion in Tanzania on a 21 day Safari....Nice big dark maned lion., but I doubt that anyone is going to find a classic full black maned lion these days, but it can and does happen, they kill one or two each year with a good deal of black on them...Luck of the draw..

Ray that is a very bold statement to make! Are you saying you are offering 100% success? I would kind of agree with you if you said the client would HAVE TO DEDICATE his full time to hunting such a lion but would suggest a success rate of 50%-80% depending on the area hunted . Maybe you take my last statement on "dedicating full time" for granted because of your experience but I don't think most people would really know what that means don't you agree?

Happy hunting!

Ray, it sounds to me like you are either desperate for bookings or you are kidding a lot of people with the above statement.It would be better to say what the past success rate has been for an outfitter or an area, but to say you can get anyone a lion anytime is a little deep in my opinion if you are looking for big males with hair, and I am not talking about the hair on their nuts either. Even in the best areas in Tanzania you can not be 100% sure of getting a big manned lion. Yes you will see plenty of lion in Tanzania in good areas, but big or good manned lions are hard to come by and should not be considered as easy to get as you say they are, or you will have some dissapointed clients.

It may be premature to jump on Ray before we know what kind of lion is guaranteed. For example, below is a fine specimen of black maned lion that can be arranged for a mere $65 trophy fee at the local Humane Society. However, even they do not always enjoy 100% success, and sometimes the client has to settle for a calico.

500 Grains,
That's a "black-faced" lion different form the more sought after "black-maned" lions seen on TV.

Where can i book a hunt for one of those and in oyur experience what is the recommended caliber?

Adam,
Well we got our quota last year and the year before in both Zimbabwe and Tanzania..We have two for this year and know where they are and they will be shot..All my clients have gotten Lions over the last 4 or 5 years..end of story.

Perhaps this is another statement like your last one that I let slide that L1 had no Buffalo and its the smallest concession in Tanzania which was pure BS, it is one of the largest blocks and it has lots of Buffalo and I know several that hunted it last year on this very forum and saw a lot of Buffalo every day..You said you drove through it many times and had never seen one, maybe you should get out of the truck and walk around before you speak, maybe the same with Lions..

No, I am booking up full every year and have not had a complaint since I dropped you from my bookings, but I am sure you don't want to get into that on the internet...so probably you should ease off my case.

There were a lot of guys walking around at SCI frustrated because the areas which consistently produced good lion were booked to 2007. Some were asking and getting $2500 per day for 24 days for top lion hunts, notwithstanding the far advance booking required. I was not aware of any safari companies providing a guarantee. They merely described their past success and showed photographs.

This is going to get interesting.

As to the other comments I said that I could "just about" get anyone a Lion..so far I have done that, and I am sure at some point someone will not...I said nothing about guarenteeing anything, I don't do that, but I surly can make such a statement....

The bottom line is we have had excellent success on cats in certain areas in both Zim and Tanz and 8 years straight on Leopard in Zim with Paul Zorn, and will continue to do so I am sure, they are pre scouted and before the hunter gets there, baited in advance...Last year Bill Holscher shot his Lion on day one and Leopard on day two in Tanzania..It was a beatiful Lion and he chose from two males...

The bottom line is for those here who challange me on the statement, book elsewhere and those that accept my post then book with me...simple as that.

Ray:

Been there. Believe you. 'nuff said. And the buff on the left came from LU1, btw.

Adam, I would like to hear your reply as to Ray's comments....and maybe why you two no longer do business together??

HI,

I have no clue about lions hunts, so I would like to know what is a average cost for 10 day or so,as I said just would like to know more on the hunts.I have been looking at Buff, so I know around the average 7 or 10 hunts for them. Kev

Adam:

Airing dirty laundry will solve no problems. Let's just let it go. Heck, one or the other will start talking about .45/70's. Let's talk about where to find good lions!

I will leave this subject alone and let Ray tell his stories. It is not worth my time arguing with someoe who believes hs own BS.

I'll tell you guys I am by no means an expert on African hunting nor am I an expert on lions but I have to put in my 2 cents here because this is starting to deteriorate into somewhat of a personal thing as opposed to an objective discussion.

I base my perceptions on my experiences. I booked a hunt with Adam's team, for lion, far in advance. I heard from them on a regular basis just to be certain I knew everything I needed to know. They were also very careful to tell me there were no guarantees but that we would hunt hard every day and that we'd have a great time. That's precisely what happened and, luck being what it is, I ended up shooting a lion along with every other animal I had hoped for. We hunted very hard every day on the ground, not from a vehicle. The accomodations, plans and, in particular my PH, Wayne Clark, were just outstanding.

I had a bit if an airlines snafu on my upcoming trip and Adam's team went out of their way to work this out with me and at the end of the day I ended up with an extra hunting day! The bottom line for me is that I personally consider this organization to be above reproach in terms of ethics, committment to clients and plain old hard work and hunting. I would challenge anyone who says otherwise and I intend to continue to hunt with these guys.

If anyone wants to know any details of my experience with Safaris Trackers drop me a note and I'll be glad to share them. Also I'm not associated with the industry in any way so I don't have a dog in this fight.

Why don't you delete your last post, Adam? What good will come of it? The only result will be a post of Ray's version of the facts... which can't help you or your business. And Ray... if he does delete it, let it go... until you see him face to face.



In any event.. LU1 isn't the smallest of the Selous blocks, by far. I looked at a map today.. and I while there I guess I just imagined Elephants, leopards, lions, buffalo, sable, eland, kongoni, zebra, etc... I did see a baboon in a safari car speed through, though... nose up in the air.

I am hoping no one will ask me to delete my photo of the black maned lion.

Judge,
you can't expect to be provoked the way Ray did with Adam and be told to shut up? However, They have both had 1 chance at each other and I would recommend they now take it up privately and let this thread continue on-topic!

I certainly am biased on this question as I think Tanzania would offer the best chance of success to a lion hunter. Shooting any male lion in Tanzania is pretty much guaranteed in a 3 week period. That would be true for "just any male lion"! Not for an old, fully maned lion. If the criteria for a trophy male lion would be an old (over 6-7 years Dark-nosed theory included), fully maned (irrespective of color)male that is not part of a pride with young or pregnant females, then I believe that the expected success rate is about 30%. This in the best areas!!!

I personally "disqualify" from my calculations male lions taken that are 5yrs or younger and believe me these make up a large part of the total lions taken in any country! It is relatively easy to make statements such as Ray's (or JCBarth's as in previous threads) if hunters end up shooting 3-5 year old males! I am not suggesting that is what Ray's clients are taking but merely referring to his kind of statement.

Happy hunting!

Hmmm...



I think the primary requirement for getting a big black/dark maned lion is having more money and time than the next guy. It is far easier to be self-rightous about all this when money and time are not obstacles.

Bawanamich:



I'm with you in that the issue should be left to lions and the quality thereof. When you start on charactor issues, someones business will be hurt. I've been privy to this whole thing... and not from the principals here fussing. Lion quality aside, the reason for the Ray/Adam split ain't pretty. One of the parties doesn't want the whole meal deal out there. Kind of like why John Kerry won't release his "purple heart" medical records, I guess. Sometimes "first blush" stories have twists that had better be left alone...?



As to the question about Saeed, he can speak for himself, but if I remember correctly, he was interested primarily in buffalo and lion was secondary target. I'm sure he would have hunted a different block if lion was primary. Anyway, how can anyone complain when they get a three-pawed, one eared hyena?

Will,
You are correct there! At the same time, just cause you can only afford 1 lion hunt in your life should not justify you shoot a 3 year old male. That is equivalent to a young, soft bossed, hair in the middle, bull buffalo. I see that you are fascinated by elephants? A 3 year old lion is similar to a 20 year old bull elephant with 25 lbs tusks! Nothing to be proud off or consider as a trophy representative of the specie.

Rather spend your money hunting something else, like leopard IMO.

Guys! Guys! Guys!

I hate to come into this but feel that I must since Ray and Adam are not working out what happened, but rather casting aspersions.

My group of 6 were one of the ones that came into many problems. We booked through Ray, who sent us with Adam's company, who was hunting our hunt on a concession leased/controlled by Kibuko Safari's (Pano Calavaris).

I will TRY make this brief. (couldn't do it)
(1) Our contract was very general and broad, which left several things such as charter fees, up for interpertation. (Lesson learned)
(2) We were told that to add another Buff onto the hunt, all we had to do was pay the trophy fee. WRONG. (I still have the e-mails and phone notes)
(3) Monies had been paid ahead of time for extra Buff. Dicky had paid for 3 in fact. This did not show up when we got to camp and then we found that we were hunting two to a license, which contains two Buff. We added the extra licenses at full price.
(4) We had to pay the charter fee on the spot before we left. We were under the understanding that it was included in the fee as it stated "All inclusive" and no mention of extra fees for charters. What a surprise!
(5) I personally, along with my party, feel that the major problems came out of the very poor office manager that Adam had at the time who basically told us what we wanted to hear or didn't know any better and didn't find out the correct answers, and an unscrupulous person that had too much control of the hunt.
(6) The office manager was let go prior to our return. Adam realized too late that he had a rat in the nest. Adam did everything in his control to repay us the monies that we felt that we were owed and correct the wrongs that he could. We are now booking directly with Adam since we have the direct company contact. I would book through Ray for a hunt that I do not know the outfitters and needed his direction. His trophy elk and bison hunt for example.

Adam is a very reputable company that had things get away from him. He now knows that he has to stay in the office to run the business and not be a PH at the same time. He also has different concessions that will help to avoid manipulation by those outside of his company. Problem solved.
I can honestly say that I feel the problems that we encountered were not a direct result brought on by either individual, who have reputable companies. As far as this thread taking the course that it did between Adam and Ray, I am sorry for. If they would both try to work this out amongst themselves, they would both open minded winners and so would their clients. COMMUNICATION.
As far as who knows more about what on any of these threads...........lets put our egos back in our pants and move on with topics of real interest and content. Shame on you both. You guys are better than this.

Ray, if you don't want my business in the future, fine.
Adam, if you want to refund my deposit, fine.

I called the way I see it. Both had problems to correct.


Now, where are those lions?

Sam Clemmons
eclemmons@hotmail.com

Well I have some other guys that it took me more than a year to get there monies back, or trophies back, and that doesn't sit well with me...

The company belongs to Pano not Adam and I was told that by Pano, which conflicts with Adam telling me otherwise...they have a way of blaming everything on each other and now they are blaming it on an office employee, thats a crock....It was Adams and Adams alone responsibility, thats who I delt with. Not Panos, not a employees, his and no one else.

I have nothing more to say on the subject, it sucks and I'm pissed about his arrogant BS and mistreatment of clients..To blackmail a client of mine to get out of Tanzania is going to far and according to Big Sams partner that is exactly what he was told and he had to pay his charter flight twice to get out of Tanzania....Then Adam spews his BS about a block that he was trying to get and tells everyone it had no Buffalo, then misinterpets my post as a guarentee when thats not what I said at all..At the time he had his license for two or three years and also told me different...I have kept quite on this thing but he just pushed me over the line with his last two BS posts.

And Sam I have no problem with anyone including myself that you book with, the whole thing on my part was recovering your monies and your mistreatment as was told to my by you and your hunting companions at the time, and other clients I sent in good faith that were also mistreated....Oh and hey I got another bag of complaints from the rest but I won't push it any further than this unless it gets worse around here at which point I will email them and let them all express their opinnion.

Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me....but perhaps we should let it drop now and let Adam not respond to me or I him, and if he has a problem that then see me at Dallas to sort it out..

Dave,

Yeah, all this stuff is just so much hooey.

People being blackmailed to get out of Tanzania? Come on. If that happened to me I would look directly at the person I booked the hunt with. In my case that was Adam and the charter charges were quite clear - in fact I have a brochure with them detailed in it and as it was it ended up costing me less than specified but at least I had all the information to be prepared.

I have heard that some of the absolute best lion areas are controlled by Tanzania Game Trackers (or Tanzania Safari Trackers, or something like that). Those guys always have a really nice booth at SCI with a great brochure.

South Africa produces some nicely shampooed and blow-dried retired zoo lions on a fenced 40 acre paddock. I don't know how common those canned cat hunts are, but probably too common.

Erik,

Wild footprints has had its blocks removed and as far as I know are no longer in business. They were in a court case with another outfitter that was accusing them of "poaching" in their block. They lost the case and subsequently the blocks. I am trying to find the article in the newspaper that carried this story and will try to post....