along the lions of the thread "Lion Hunting in RSA" just didn't want to drag it too far off topic:

why is it some animals are "acceptable" to hunt behind a high fence, but others are not?

what is the minimum size for everyone to say "it's ok that it has a perimeter fence"


I have my own opinions as we all do. Maybe since I've never been to Africa I will get the "you just don't understand". My only high fence experience has been around a few white tail deer operations some which have "large" hunting sections, and one that has such a large area fenced in that they really don't know just how many deer are in there and some of the bucks they may only see every couple of years.


Personally if it's following the local laws I have no problems with high fence hunts for local or exotic animals, I don't think it would be my first choice for a hunt but everyone has their reasons for the game animal they pursue, the country they visit, and the outfitter they choose

High fence hunting gets a bad rap which is not totally deserved. It seems to me that ALL high fenced operations are treated as if they are the same. They are NOT all the same.

I have hunted on a high fenced places with no internal fences where it was 40 miles across the property. These are no where like some of the other places around. These animals are as wild as wild can be. They are as fair chase as anything I have ever seen.

My friends have their 200,000 acres fenced. Primarily to keep the eles, rhinos, and lions inside. You never see the fences except when coming in the main gate, and all the animals are free-ranging within. I have no problem with that.

Best way to handle this is to ask your Outfitter how many hectares are fenced on the concession. Some are small in comparison to others. Disease is a major factor in Africa. There are hoof and mouth Red Zones and areas where there are Black Wildebeest which can not be near Cattle.

Google earth has good coverage of RSA so you can ask for the latitude/longitude position before your Safari. This will give you an idea of the size of the high fence area.
A sad fact is that many Americans do not care. They will shoot off of the truck in a 500 acre high fence in a New York minute. The PH's do not mind because more animals mean more money. Many hunters simply will not hunt a high fence.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim629:

why is it some animals are "acceptable" to hunt behind a high fence, but others are not?

In general I feel animals that have spent their entire life in the area, reproduce naturally, sustain herd and trophy size, and know the terrain, watering holes, thickets, cover, etc. are deemed more acceptable than a lion that was released the day before the hunter arrives.

what is the minimum size for everyone to say "it's ok that it has a perimeter fence"

Depends on terrain & your conscience and ethics.

Personally the only fenced area I ever hunted in Africa was the Save Valley Conservancy. I believe it is 800,000 acres and one perimeter fence that was not even in place completely around the area. I thoroughly enjoyed the hunt; however it had a different feel. I came directly from Coutada Nine to the Save. Coutada Nine was old wild Africa. The Save had a "ranch" feel to it. Again it is a great area, great animals, great hunting, it just felt different when they closed that gate behind us.

High Fences keep the Poachers out.

High Fences:

quote:

Primarily to keep the eles, rhinos, and lions inside.

Hardly unless you're looking at something like the Berlin Wall.

so for a lion, if it is released a month ahead of hunt to give it time to acclimate would that help solve some of the bad stigma around them?


I would personally wonder if there aren't other animals (cape buffalo, Kudu) that are released within a few days of a hunter showing up but don't get the publicity that a lion does.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
High Fences:

quote:

Primarily to keep the eles, rhinos, and lions inside.

Hardly unless you're looking at something like the Berlin Wall.

I spoke with Dave Davenport (LVS) quite a bit on this topic during my last safari. It seems that the RSA has many of the same draconic laws that California has in terms of corporation liability. It is the concession operators responsibility to not only make sure that the animals stay IN the concession but also to make sure that people (thieves, greenpeace, etc.) cannot be allowed into the concession either for fear that the intruder might be injured.

In so many ways, it's like some criminal breaking into my house - if they slip and injure themselves on my property due to my negligence, I can be sued.

I've hunted high fence in SA (the Concessions were as small as 1500 acres or as large as 40k hectares) and to me, it's all about trying to give the animal a sporting chance of escape. Driven hunting just the fence lines or trying to push the game animals into the corners where they can't escape - well, I don't really consider that particularly sporting. On the other hand, hunting in dense foliage on foot away from the edges can be very thrilling when you can't see even 10 yards.

For me, It's not the fence that determines the hunt - it's how the hunter behaves and makes decisions made that determines the hunt.

With the human population growing so fast, soon the only hunting available will be on fenced private ground...and it will cost. RSA is the future.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
High fence hunting gets a bad rap which is not totally deserved. It seems to me that ALL high fenced operations are treated as if they are the same. They are NOT all the same.

I have hunted on a high fenced places with no internal fences where it was 40 miles across the property. These are no where like some of the other places around. These animals are as wild as wild can be. They are as fair chase as anything I have ever seen.

I agree with Larry. I hunt some high fence areas in the US and Africa. They are big areas and you do not know your in the high fence unless you go through the gate. The biggest high fence in the USA is Vermejo Park in NM. I doubt any one here would object to hunting that place. On the other had, I have been on high fence places that were 400 acres or less and balked at that type of hunting.

Size is not the only thing. There used to be a exotics place an hour or so from here. In the middle of this 6,500 acres, they had 6 acres that was fenced off with a separate high fence. Yes, 6 acres. It was THICK. That tiny little place was damn near impossible to kill anything in. They painted the horns of some animals with orange paint. These same animals were rarely spotted.

My community has asked if I would consider putting a few kilometres of fence up against their agricultural sector to try and combat wildlife conflicts.

Would that make me partially fenced?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Size is not the only thing. There used to be a exotics place an hour or so from here. In the middle of this 6,500 acres, they had 6 acres that was fenced off with a separate high fence. Yes, 6 acres. It was THICK. That tiny little place was damn near impossible to kill anything in. They painted the horns of some animals with orange paint. These same animals were rarely spotted.

Larry I have a big old bushbuck that occupies a couple of acres behind my camp. Do you think any of my clients can shoot him?

I would say no Andrew. This was a bit different. They high fenced a small very thick area. They turned various animals loose in the small area. It was exceedingly difficult to get a shot at anything in that area. Anyone going in that area thinking it was going to be easy would be disappointed.

There's a good reason why most smallish high fenced places boast 100% hunting success.

Tim,

I think there is no right or wrong about high fence hunting. What I personally look for is a genuine safari experience. The area for me has to have a self sustaining population of indigenous animals to offer that experience. If the property is so small or it is hunted so hard that animals have to be bought to continually restock the property it's not what I'm looking for. Also big open wild country does not always equal great hunting. You have to have great habitat. I've ridden around half a day in Western Tanzania and the Zambezi Valley without seeing much of anything.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Tim,

I think there is no right or wrong about high fence hunting. What I personally look for is a genuine safari experience. The area for me has to have a self sustaining population of indigenous animals to offer that experience. If the property is so small or it is hunted so hard that animals have to be bought to continually restock the property it's not what I'm looking for. Also big open wild country does not always equal great hunting. You have to have great habitat. I've ridden around half a day in Western Tanzania and the Zambezi Valley without seeing much of anything.

Mark

I don't particularly care for or against high fences, just figured it would get some people's minds thinking which it appears to have done just that.

as you and others have said it's the particular situation that makes or breaks an adventure.

its like the black bear hunting bait vs no bait situation, no right or wrong answers just a different way that some love some hate but has its reasons for continuing on in it's particular manner

quote:

Hardly unless you're looking at something like the Berlin Wall.

Originally posted by fujotupu

I just re-read Richard Harland's excellent book, "The Hunting Imperative" for the umpteenth time. Given Harland's experience culling elephant in the Corridor, despite the fence, and Fulvio's own bona fides, I suspect fujo's comment is dead on accurate. No reasonable fence that anyone can afford is going to keep elephant from going where they want to be.

Others said a high fence would keep out poachers and that is a lot of bunk. I've seen them cut the fence and bring in pack animals to haul out the meat.

Nevertheless, I agree with what others have said. I'd hunt some high fence operations under the right circumstances, with full knowledge of what they are, and I wouldn't hunt others. Size matters, but it is not the only consideration.

Let's not forget the high fenced area in the US such as the Sanctuary.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:

quote:

Hardly unless you're looking at something like the Berlin Wall.

Originally posted by fujotupu

I just re-read Richard Harland's excellent book, "The Hunting Imperative" for the umpteenth time. Given Harland's experience culling elephant in the Corridor, despite the fence, and Fulvio's own bona fides, I suspect fujo's comment is dead on accurate. No reasonable fence that anyone can afford is going to keep elephant from going where they want to be.

Others said a high fence would keep out poachers and that is a lot of bunk. I've seen them cut the fence and bring in pack animals to haul out the meat.

Nevertheless, I agree with what others have said. I'd hunt some high fence operations under the right circumstances, with full knowledge of what they are, and I wouldn't hunt others. Size matters, but it is not the only consideration.

In the Save they mainly keep human encroachment out.

Mike

There are good and bad high fence hunting. The area is not the most important factor, the vegetation also plays a role. In a dense vegetation area you can have a wonderful hunt on a smaller area say 750 ha but same won't apply to a very open area with little vegetation.

The way you hunt plays a big role in the pleasure and enjoyment you experience, if you hunt on foot you will experience much more and see much more than to sit at a waterhole or use a vehicle to travel around all day.

The way the area is managed is crucial, if the animals are left to live their lives with as little as possible human intervention, it will be a enjoyable fair chase hunt. If there are a lot of small enclosures where animals are bred and then released to be hunted, I personally will pass.

There are some hunting farms that is split up in a hunting area and a breeding area and none of the captive bred animals are put up for hunting, that is fine. I do not want to hunt an animal that is totally habituated to human's.

High fence hunting did a lot to conserve animals and the increase in wildlife numbers prove that. Privately owned game farms will most probably be the only places we will be able to hunt in the future, the big thing is that it must be managed in a sustainable way with minimum human intervention and hunting is done on a fair chase basis.

We all would prefer to hunt in a natural wild area, but the real wilderness areas are getting smaller and smaller all the time. With the explosion of the population in Africa and the rest of the world and the need for land we will have no other option than to hunt on high fenced hunting farms.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Let's not forget the high fenced area in the US such as the Sanctuary.
Cal

And a thousand others.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:

quote:

Hardly unless you're looking at something like the Berlin Wall.

Originally posted by fujotupu

I just re-read Richard Harland's excellent book, "The Hunting Imperative" for the umpteenth time. Given Harland's experience culling elephant in the Corridor, despite the fence, and Fulvio's own bona fides, I suspect fujo's comment is dead on accurate. No reasonable fence that anyone can afford is going to keep elephant from going where they want to be.

Others said a high fence would keep out poachers and that is a lot of bunk. I've seen them cut the fence and bring in pack animals to haul out the meat.

Nevertheless, I agree with what others have said. I'd hunt some high fence operations under the right circumstances, with full knowledge of what they are, and I wouldn't hunt others. Size matters, but it is not the only consideration.

In the Save they mainly keep human encroachment out.

Mike

With their cattle.

I just hunted yesterday on 600,000 unfenced/low fenced acres in Namibia - a property that backs up to another 700,000 unfenced/low fenced acres. I don't expect the Conservancy areas in Namibia will ever see a high fence.

"Fences" take on many forms. The height and strength of a fence not to mention its construction can make it a barrier to some and a passage to others.

Here in the US and other places fences take many forms, imported feed plots, mineral and salt licks, and water tanks to name a few. These are also unnatural devices which serve to hold game in place when the environment would have forced them to move in search of food and water.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
I just hunted yesterday on 600,000 unfenced/low fenced acres in Namibia - a property that backs up to another 700,000 unfenced/low fenced acres. I don't expect the Conservancy areas in Namibia will ever see a high fence.

Proper country.

I deer hunt on an island. Some might call that a fence.

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:
I deer hunt on an island. Some might call that a fence.

Add highways, cliffs, large bodies of water, cities, railways, etc and the game gets confined to a certain area where they are not bothered, and you have natural "fenced" areas. You could call islands high fenced, as well as continents. Size has a play, as does terrain. Like noted, more about the size and terrain than whether there is a fence around it.

Some hunts are easy, some are tough......fences or not. Just call it what it is, and don't portray it as something that's it's not. For example, I got invited on a "released" pheasant hunt, some years back....only because I was the only one with a bird dog. Having only shot wild birds my entire life, I didn't hold out much hope for "proper" bird hunting. And sure enough, the birds that were released that day, the dog picked up like popcorn (he was high gun that day!). The birds that had survived for a month or two were pretty wild and each one we killed was well earned, and offered up some good dog work. The birds that had been around longer were UNKILLABLE! I'd watch them run up hills 400-500 yards in front of us, pitch off, and fly out of sight! Maybe 22-250 range, but not 12 gauge! Point is, I found out that in that fenced/released hunt, some of it's just "killing" and some of it, "hunting". The head dog trainer told me that the surviving birds get hunted more often and more days than any wild bird. He sure had a point, and made a believer out of me. But my springer spaniel sure had fun with the dumb ones! Andy #3

I too have hunted behind high fences both in Africa and in North America.

The individual place has a lot more to do with it than the fence.

If the terrain is not amenable to the species and natural behavior, the experience is not what hunting in the wild is. The best high fence hunts can rival a fence free experience, the worst make you feel like you are a slaughterhouse employee, but paying for the priviledge.

As long as the operators are honest about what they are offering, I have no issues with it.

I had an offer for lion at big discount on a high fence operation. Fortunately, I had already taken a wild one, so there was no interest on my part, but I could see how someone with different desires would have been all over it.

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:
I deer hunt on an island. Some might call that a fence.

Food for thought.

It is not the fence but more the mentality.

quote:

Originally posted by Dom:

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:
I deer hunt on an island. Some might call that a fence.

Add highways, cliffs, large bodies of water, cities, railways, etc and the game gets confined to a certain area where they are not bothered, and you have natural "fenced" areas. You could call islands high fenced, as well as continents. Size has a play, as does terrain. Like noted, more about the size and terrain than whether there is a fence around it.

Had someone tell me once that it must easy to hunt on an island because you just herd the deer to the beach a d shoot them. They didnt understand that the cover there is so thick in places that you cant see the sun at noon.

People conflate high fenced hunting with put-and-take hunting. Two different things. Most wild animals are territorial and if the area is bigger than the natural territory, and if the animals are naturally reproducing, there isn't much practical difference between fenced and unfenced. It can also be argued that many of the unfenced concessions are worked over by poachers so the probability of success is lower. Does not make it more sporting. If that were true hunting elephant in Kansas would be very sporting.

Kansas is too cold for elephants.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
It is not the fence but more the mentality.

Exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:

People conflate high fenced hunting with put-and-take hunting. Two different things. Most wild animals are territorial and if the area is bigger than the natural territory, and if the animals are naturally reproducing, there isn't much practical difference between fenced and unfenced. It can also be argued that many of the unfenced concessions are worked over by poachers so the probability of success is lower. Does not make it more sporting. If that were true hunting elephant in Kansas would be very sporting.

Ummm Russ, you accurately draw the distinction between high fenced farm hunting properties and high fenced put and take operations, then you turn around and generalize that Concession hunting is difficult because they are worked over by poaching. That's hardly accurate for most Conservancies which protect and conserve their wildlife. Not to mention government and NGO organizations who actively establish and enforce quotas and also work to prevent poaching. It is hardly the wild, wild west on most Conservancy.

Conservancy hunting can difficult because it is truly fair chase and there are no fences to stop them...

I have hunted about 30countries all over the world (also guided in some), that includes some of the wildest places the earth has to offer, farmlands, large and small fenced properties.
I have never done a put and take hunt and most likely never will, however I would have to lie if I would say there is a hughe difference between a well run fenced area and a good concession. It's hunting in both cases and much more determinted by the actual landscape then by a fence.

I have to wonder why people get so caught up with all these topics. Why does it matter to you? I hunt the way I want for my reasons and I am happy to see other people do the same for their own reasons with whatever rifle they choose.

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
I have to wonder why people get so caught up with all these topics. Why does it matter to you? I hunt the way I want for my reasons and I am happy to see other people do the same for their own reasons with whatever rifle they choose.

It's internet self righteousness.