I just read an article in the July/August issue of "Safari" where a hunter killed a lion on the second day of his South African Safari. When asked upon arrival what he wanted in addition to lion, he said a caracal and various plains game. He and the PH go out plains game hunting and have great success while the trackers search for cat tracks. On day one, they find a caracal and radio the hunter. When he gets there, the caracal is treed and he shoots it. On day two, he succesfully hunts plains game again and the receives word that the trackers had found lion tracks at a neighboring ranch next to their cattle weaning pens. The hunter gets there, tracks the lion, and ends up shooting a well maned lion. Sounds too convienent. Are there any legitimate South African lion hunts?

From time to time lions do wander out of the parks, and onto neigboring properties. I've seen some magnificient lions in Kruger Park that would get them on the payroll at MGM. How often this happens I can't say. I was just watching a hunting video this evening that took place mostly in RSA, and in one particular segment the hunters were after Buffalo. At the hunters shot, the herd took off running-right by the electric poles. Another hunt took place in the Klaserie, and the hunter took a beautiful lion on the second day of his hunt-no baiting, just "tracking".

Haven't several "game record" associations decided that they will recognize no lions from RSA?



I'm sure that scenarios exist in which "fair chase" for DG does exist in RSA. Yet... if there is a fence, I don't see how I would feel right about it.... I say that and I paid good money to hunt plains game this year within a fenced 9000 hectar ranch. What's tbe difference? I'll be darned if I know, but "hunting" wildebeest within a very large impoundment while "breaking in" an African newbie was just fine, I'm sure that "hunting" a lion confined to that same space would have not been my cup of tea. I can't really explain why, but I so feel. Such is JMHO.

Simply NO!

It's all a matter of degree of wildness and (IMO) the closest you'll get to a legitimate Lion hunt in RSA is in an area adjoining a park where a Lion has wandered (or been baited) across the border/through the fence into a privately owned (fenced)hunting area......these Lions are fully habituated to man and vehicles and it's a far cry from hunting a truly wild Lion.

That said, this habituation can also work the other way. For example the KNP Lions whilst habituated to vehicles and people are also in the habit of eating some of the illegal immigrants who try to access RSA by walking through the park and consequently can be more aggressive than other Lions......after that the degree of "wildness" declines and at the other end of the scale you find canned Lion shooting.

Anyone wanting to hunt a truly wild Lion needs to hunt it in a True Wilderness Area such as can be found in places like Tanzania and Botswana etc..........and the same thing apply to other DG species in RSA.

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Hi Alf,

Hope that you're well and I take you're point about Masailand and the relationship between the Maasai and their Lions, but I also believe the Lions view the Maasai as different to the "white folk" in hunting trucks etc.

I have indeed encountered Lions both on foot and from vehicles in the Greater KNP areas.....and I've also done the same thing in places such as Tanzania etc.....in fact some years ago I accidentally walked into a pride of Lions on a kill when helping in a study in the GKNP area and I do mean walked into. I was within ass kicking range before I saw them. All I was armed with was a clipboard and a pen and indeed it did scare the shit out of me. I've never moved so fast as when getting the hell out of there........and I won't argue with your comment that the KNP Lions can be aggressive. (I actually said that very thing in my previous post). BUT in my opinion, hunting a KNP lion is not the same as hunting a truly wild Lion such as you may encounter in the Selous Reserve for example. IMO KNP Lions are considerably more habituated to humanity than the Lions in places such as the Selous. Let's face it, KNP Lions see vehicles dozens of times a day. Whether the vehicles see the Lions is another matter. Lions in True Wilderness Areas don't see that many vehicles in a month.

Alf,

Take that lion in ngorongoro that is "habituated" to the maasai he "knows" who herd their cattle in the crater area and put it in any other Maasailand area and you will see the change in behaviour. i can guarantee you that that lion will be far less "habituated" to the Maasai. That lion in the crater "knows" he has nothing to fear from them crater Maasai but place him outside of the crater and he will flee and shy away from any maasai at 300 yds. like most animals, they know when they are safe and when not! this is typical of animals that live on the firnges of National Parks and often wander into neighbouring areas were conflict with humans (whether hunting or not) is unnavoidable. They behave differently towards the same humans when in a Park or oustide a Park where they know they are persecuted or hunted.

Some of the Tz Parks are so huge that a lion that holds a territory in the middle of the park may never come into contact with humans other than those visiting the park who never harm them and so are totally "habituated".

I have seen hundreds of buffalo (and other animals) in a hunting area that is adjacent to a National Park, flee at the mere sight (or sound) of humans and stop 3 yards inside the Park, turn around and look at you as if they were your pet dog. They know once they cross that "border" (althought there is no visible boundary other than maybe a track or korongo)they are safe.

Quote:

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Further I would venture to say in Tanz the Maasai have a closer physical relationship between their cattle and the resident lion than do cattle and the lion of the KNP and adjoining parks.

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i can promise you it is not a good relationship at all. There are a couple dozen lions killed every year by maasai. The crater is a controlled environment and the local maasai "own" the ngorongoro conservation area and have learnt that it is better to leave them lions (and other game) alone as they earn far more from them alive than dead. In spite of this, they still end up spearing a few every year who kill their cattle but these are mainly in the areas outside the Crater itself where there is less control and less benefit to them.

Okay boys but what is the answer to SBT's question?

IMO - No.

SBT- There have been several excellent threads on this in the past. Is the search function back up? Many have in the past defended the canned program as a "willing buyer and willing seller". I think it's a bit more complex than that. As Steve and Alf can attest, there are many breeders of lions in RSA. Gosh- I wonder what happens to all those cats?!!

Gentlemen,

As far as I can remember, anyone who "hunts" lion in South Africa knows what he is getting into.

Some even pretend to be doing a public service for shooting a lion that has been raiding cattle ranches - and pay $30,000 for the privilage of being made a fool of.

Just as SCI must have know what was going on for a long time, but chose to turn a blind eye to it.

I would gladly hunt plains game in South Africa, but lion, buffalo or any dangerous game I will hunt in other countries.

Having said that, who are we to pass judgement on others who wish to go and shoot a lion in a pen?

Let them have their fun.

One of our members posted a link to one of our buffalo hunts on another hunting site, and the response is somewhat interesting.

The link to the videos is in the first post.

I agree with Saeed about the other DG in RSA and in fact I nearly said so in my previous posts.....As far as I'm concerned there's no legitimate Elephant, Leopard or Buff hunting in RSA either.......The Leopard hunting situation is truly appalling.



Rhino are a different matter and there's not many other places to hunt them. (and, to the best of my knowledge nowhere to hunt them without a fence).....but I tend to feel that a dart hunt is more of a challenge for this species anyway.

I consider the Lions of Tanzania, in the Mayowashi, Selous, the Northern district, and even the Masai Steep, to be considerably more challanging than those picture posing Lions slipping out of Kruger.

It is a lot of work and time spent to kill a Lion in Tanzania, as they are man consious and know they are being hunted, the females are pretty tame because they also know they are not hunted...East African Lions are wild lions, no doubt about that, they have no fences, no boundries..

I would apply the same to Botswana, Mozambique and some of the more Northern areas of Africa...

Another thing I might add is a Lion is a Lion, even if he is a pet and he is damn dangerous wild or fenced IMO...In fact the Kruger Lions have a pretty bad reputation for jumping folks, when an animal loses his fear of man, IMO he becomes evern more of a threat!.....

My take on folks shooting canned Lions, good for them, that leaves less pressure on the truly wild Lions left in this world....I have no problem what so ever with that..