In the boring thread on ".375 on elephant" were included some thoughts about the calibers suited for defence against charging elephants.
It seems to me that no one of the posters has noticeable experience with this matter.
A charging ele is the least dangerous game compared to buffalo or lion. In most cases you don�t need a big gun. It depends of course on the distance where the charge started and the character of the terrain. But in many (most?) cases you will make the ele to turn off by producing a lot of noise. You can do it with shouting or metallic noise from punching a knife against the barrel.
Next measure is a shot in the air above the ele�s head. The caliber is any you like. Once I had only my camera at hand when a bull started a charge. I tried to give room by walking backwards, but fell down on my back. My PH shot in the air, the bull stopped immediatly making a skid mark and veered round. Even some steps sideways are not wrong, because an ele has a very bad eye sight and no directional smelling when running.
All this measures are advisable, because to kill an ele in self defence will often cause a strong investigation by the governmental authorities.
But if that all doesn�t help, you have to apply a frontal head shot. In this stirred up situation a brain shot is doubtful and missing it often occurs. You have to rely on a "knock down" effect hitting the head. My experience is that for a KO a .458 Lott and more is a good recommendation. I shot an ele, missing the brain, which laid down up to 20 minutes.

If I wanted to stop charging elephants, I'd just pay cash.

Norbert,

I remember from your posts in the past that you have more experience with elephant than most. Would you consider telling the tale of the elephant that got knocked out for 20 minutes? I have heard many stories of a nearly brained elephant reviving and running off but never one being out for 20 minutes.

Regards,

Mark

Well, an elephant can be stopped or turned by shooting over its head, SOMETIMES, but there is no guarantee.



Three shots to the head were required to turn one of the elephants that charged me (we all blew the brain shot).



A shot to the chest may also turn them SOMETIMES. According to Ganyana a shot through their spread ear will turn them (assuming their ears are out).



But every elephant hunt I have been on is different and to draw conclusions about what will and will not work to stop a charge seems pretty dangerous to me. And when they are close....wait a minute, let me get out my knife and tink the barrel a couple times!



When they are charging me, I shoot to kill, and I ain't trusting in any .375 for that.

I took away my wife's credit card and that stopped the only charging elephant I am afraid. For all others, I would use a .375 H&H and run.

Norbert, I humbly yield to your superior elephant hunting experience, but come on, you gotta have a better charge story then that?!?!



Your description of "knockdown effect" is the point I was struggling to make w/my "greater margin of error" comments, on that boring .3xx thread w/all those other inexperienced hunters you make reference to.



From The African Hunter website, here's a link to an article by the renowned Andy Hunter: Mock Charge or Real?



Check out the part about:



"The elephant put his ears back and came for a third time. I remember no sound, just those pig-like eyes looking through my body. I guess he must have been about five metres away from me when I knew I had to shoot. Having done some elephant culling, I had experienced some exciting charges from cow elephant and the training paid dividends for me that day. I remember squeezing the trigger and, obviously hitting close to the brain, the bull collapsed at my feet. He went down, front feet first, head and tusks in the dust, rolled over several times down the slope and started to rumble and tried to get up. A shot rang out from behind me as the client tried to help. I got in close and dispatched him with a shot in the top of the head." < !--color-->



I don't know what caliber he uses and that's not the theme of this thread, but that's the same "KD under duress" you are talking about.



Edit: As long as we're plugging Andy, here is his email address in case anybody wants to contact him about a hunt in Chewore North...tell him Will & Bill sent you chipitani@zol.co.zw



And also, my compliment of Norbert is sincere.

"It depends of course on the distance where the charge started and the character of the terrain. But in many (most?) cases you will make the ele to turn off by producing a lot of noise. You can do it with shouting or metallic noise from punching a knife against the barrel."

"Distance where the charge started and the character of the terrain." Is probably the best statement of the posting. People have gotten squashed trying to play "Bell" with small bores. As Will says, every case is different. Effect can be different in what looks like the same.

I suspect a big inquiry will result from shooting a "charger" and turning it. Then what do you do? Leave a cripple or finish the job? I know damn well I am not going to be digging out a knife to tap the barrel nor would I carry a .375 when looking for jumbo. It seems to me that if you aren't willing to kill dangerous game, then don't get close on purpose.

As to whether a buffalo or a lion is more dangerous I think it goes back to the conditions found, but yes they could be a greater hazard.

Just an opinion, of which we are each entitled.

Andy shoots a .416 Rem., for as long as I have known him. He culled elephants in Gonarezhou for a spell back when he was a kid.

He knows elephants and probably can guarantee a frontal brain shot in a charge as well as anyone.

In Septemeber he was trying to show me with book pictures how to execute the frontal brain shot, but told him to stuff it. I told him I could do it without his help, and did!

As I have said many times before, guys that can pull that off during a real charge have my undying admiration.

Bill - That�s all well and good, but you�re the guy letting injured pheasants fly away. I am not sure you can be trusted any longer...

Hey, you have to take anything I say with a grain of salt. The mistake I made on that pheasant was not using enough gun. With my .416 Rem. that pheasant would have been out cold for at least an hour.



Norbert,



Any time someone posts here they are setting themselves up for criticism.



I have knocked out elephants with near misses for only a few seconds, and not minutes. I think we would all enjoy hearing your story of the 20-minute knockout punch.

The best way to stop a jumbo must be to have 10 guys in a line all with doubles in .450 caliber upwards and fire all at once for the brain.
At least something similar worked for MS on one of his buff charges

Mark and Will,

That is not a great story (20 minutes), just occuring with a safe hunting technique. see below.

The ele is not waking up or standing up after 20 minutes, but as I observed several times it is still breathing and/or moving extremities for minutes. Taylor reported the same up to 30 minutes.
I don�t know what physically has happened in the ele�s head. With a bad head shot normally an ele is stunned only for seconds, just touching the ground and up again. But enough time for preparing a second, hopefully final shot.

When hunting tuskless ele cows in a big herd, you may apply a "hit and run" technique. Approach the ele for about 20 yards, shoot and hit the brain, the ele falls down and the hunters must run away because now other members of the herd may start a charge. In a save distance you observe the scene and when the herd moves on, you can go to the laying animal, prepared for a final shot. This period can take several minutes, so I was able to observe the phenomenon of the animal being still alive after minutes. But in most cases they were stone dead.

Look at Report02

Norbert,
Why would you not put a quick second shot into the heart before you run back, that has always been my ace in the hole, insurance shot, back up shot or whatever you call it...

I am of the opinnion that you cannot knock an elephant out unless you scrape the brain or its membrane, otherwise the run off an heal up....

The following quote by Neil Murray has nothing to do with stopping an elephant charge, but I think you all will agree it has merit.

"The elephant often charges to the accompaniment of a blast of high-pitched trumpeting-caused by forcibly expelling air from its trunk-which sounds like an orchestra of outraged demons. Except perhaps for the prospect of imminent hanging, there can be few situations that concentrate the mind more wonderfully."

JLS

Ray,

Quote:

---

Why would you not put a quick second shot into the heart before you run back, that has always been my ace in the hole,

---

Sometimes I am able to make the second shot into the head.
But often I am hunting ele cows in a very thick jesse where you can�t see much of the ele�s body and there is no chance to aim for the heart.

Norbert,
Well that makes since...thanks