I have posted this in African Big Game Hunting rather than the Optics forum as it involves more than optics .
First question is about what evidence there is that open sights faster than scopes . Where does the aperture sight or ghost ring stand in terms of speed of aiming . To me it is counter intuitive that open sights would be faster as you have to focus between rear sight , foresight and target . This is not the case for the scope . In asking this question I am conscious of the fact that vastly more experienced hunters than myself prefer open sights .In this is the fact that I am 65 so have hardened lenses that are slower to focus and I wear bifocals .

A supplementary question is I have looked through a friends Swarovski Z6i 1-6X scope with the CD-I reticle which I like . Would you go for the standard scope or the extended eye relief version . Does longer eye relief help faster sighting or would the loss of field of view make it slower .

Mark

The fact is that for almost all of us our eyesight deteriorates as we age. It is a physiological fact of life. Problems shooting with open sights is directly related to this issue and we will all suffer this problem if we continue to shoot as we age. Cataracts and other eye issues only exacerbate the normal deterioration of aging.

I have found a distinct benefit in the use of illuminated reticles in rifle scopes. I have also found an advantage in the use of red dot sights on big bore DG rifles. I began using illuminated low power scopes on DG rifles circa the turn of the century and also found the EOTech heads up display worked well for me on large bore handguns. I transitioned to the small red dot sights on DG rifles, both bolt guns and double rifles, around 5 years ago and find them very fast on target acquisition, more so than any other sight I have ever used. They are accurate light weight and hold zero on the big bores.

I prefer the Leupold VX-6 illuminated over the euro-trash scopes and have been using the Burris FastFire III red dot. I have heard good things about Leupold's updated red dot and intend to try one in the future.

Hope this helps.

Trijicon RMR

Your first shot is the one that counts. Go there with whatever tool you need to make it happen.
Make sure your PH knows what distance you are happy shooting at and dont let him push you past it.

If you are talking about follow up on a dangerous animal, you dont have time to look through a scope generally.But you pay a PH to get you out of trouble.

Dont go on safari with a rifle that you can only shoot well at 25 yards, with a 4mm white bead on it that you cant see past at 50 yards with, when you intend being able to take shots at 100 yards or more.

If you make your first shot count, you wont have to shoot any others.

A nice compromise is to use Warne QD mounts to put a scope with an adjustable illuminated reticle scope on. Then if it comes down to it you can take it off for close range follow up on a wounded animal.
Another nice option if your eyes battle is an Aimpoint. Great compromise for a one gun solution. But you must practice to be any good with it.

Good luck and enjoy your hunt

I use a Trijicon 1x4 with a green triangle works great. No batteries, nice and bright

Mark:

Let's first define what game you are aspiring to hunt. The innocuous types that don't bite back or the nastiest that will hurt you.

Optics are absolutely preferred over open sights.

Sight in should be 200 yard/meters.

The scope should be set for 4 to 8 power. This will provide form easy/ready access to the target.

I have many scopes and all are really good for the purpose.

If I haven't answered your question satisfactorily let me know and I will try again.

Mark, I think you'll find a scout-mounted scope difficult to use. Trying to find the image in an ocular lens about 32mm wide from 20" away is slower, to me, than using open sights. I like ghost ring sights, but they're not very effective at range, and have none of the advantages of a scope; magnification, a precise aiming point, and the ability to make out fine detail in a dark background.

I'd recommend a receiver-mounted scope of 1.75x6 or 2.5x8 power with an illuminated (when on) reticle. They've served me for 15 trips to Africa.

I also wear bifocals, but you should have enough correction it the upper part of your glasses to adapt just fine to open iron sights if you so desire inasmuch as you don't use the bifocal for shooting. This works unless your trying to justify a new scope to mama!

I prefer a tough receiver sight (ghost Peep) with a NECG partridge gold faced post on a big bore DG rifle. Why? because I practice and shoot instinctively up to 25 yards and a scope voids that..I like a 3X Leupold in Talley QD rings and bases, and I have a Talley QD peep sight in my pocket so I have both options on several of my guns...Other rifles I own have j have only a shallow V and 3/32 gold or silver bead, and I still like that combo with a 3X scope...

Another very good option and as fast as a ghost peep is a steep V combined with a NECG gold faced partridge post, and take a sight picture as you would with a pistol, with the post flush with the top of the rear sight..This combo was used by the early Texas Ranger on the Texas/Mexico border, and its an awesome method..

Different from most folks I carry the scope on my hip in a holster or day pack when hunting DG, and put it on the gun for shots out at about 200 yards or more, usually if I bump a nice Kudu or whatever.

I don't know if these options would work for everyone, but its been a tried and true method for me based on my years of hunting and experimentation.

Might be worth a try for you or anyone else for that matter, sure can't hurt.

I am especially fond of close quarters instinctive shooting, its surprisingly accurate. I used to shoot straight away trap for practice this way and if you keep up practice sessions you will get pretty damn good at it, but you have to keep it up to hit trap consistently...without practice I can usually keep my shots on a 3 or 4 inch bull at 25 yards consistently with a proper fitting rifle.

Wet wipes is going to get someone wiped if you follow his advise.

Biebs and Ray make a whole lot more sense. I like ghost rings. Talley makes one that fits the rear Talley base. So if you just can't leave home without a scope for your big bore, there you are.

On my Lott, the ghost ring is on the rifle and the scope is around here somewhere; I had it set to sent back to Leupold because it had a bit of parallax. Can't seem to find it at the moment.

As I have aged, optics and red-dots have become my staple-

Although- my DR's still wear leaf rear sights and gold front beads-
(I find gold beads ,even on my handguns are faster to pick up in low light than even the fiber optic fronts)

As to the optics- I recommend a high quality 1-4 , 1-6 or 1.7-10. (all are good choices) ( I own and use all the above (S&B and Swaros, and love my EE, illuminated circle dot))

Besides the claw mounted scopes-
My DR's are also milled to be fitted with Doctor (or RMR) red-dots- (fabulous little devices)

The most important factor for a quick accurate shot is how well the rifle fits you and how effortlessly you can point & shoot with your eyes on target and the sights in line. If the rifle is a poor fit and you mount it, you will probably look over the sights at an area several feet off from the target - usually vertically off target. You will usually have to pull down (a light rifle) or push up (a heavy barrel).

The first question is - what is the kind of shot? Will it be for leopard from a blind in poor light or buffalo in thick jess with patchy light & shadows or open country?

I have no experience with leopard in a blind or any DG but I suspect an illuminated scope would be ideal. I had a 1.5-6X Leupold illum scope on my 416 Rigby for use on buffalo & hopefully one day a leopard. I made that decision after a lot of research and discussion with experienced people here on AR.

For PG at close quarters like shooting warthog, bushbuck or duiker in grass etc. I would go for a ghost ring sight. I have used peep sights a lot in air rifles and shot hundreds of squirrels, some even on the run. Again the rifle MUST fit & point naturally in your arms & shoulder.

Stalking and taking carefully aimed shots is a different issue - you have more time and therefore you can use a scope that assists better shot placement as you normally have more time.

Personally, for me, low power optics are faster than irons at any sort of distance.

I can shoot a rifle just using the front sight and treat my gun mounting as a rear sight faster, but having tried ghost rings, buckhorn sights, express sights and globe sights, I just don't buy that irons are faster than optics for someone who has practiced with optics.

The other bugaboo I have heard of is lack of field of view. That is also a nonissue if you shoot with both eyes open.

Red dots are very fast, and I did put one on my double, but the disadvantage is that you can't crank up the magnification if you need it with them.

I think the scout sighting system is probably as fast as anything if you practice with it until you are good with it...I just don't spend enough time to make it work for me, it also gets rid of my personal favorite of using a variable power scope.

I personally have been using a low power variable for all my DG hunting. Leave it on 1X or as close as it goes until you are actually taking a longer shot.

No problems so far.

I did go the route of using QD rings so the irons are available if needed. Have yet to get into cover so thick or a situation so hairy I have even thought of doing it.

I do subscribe to the school that you need to have back up iron sights on the gun though- because the scope can always break.

As Mike mentioned above, for some of us who are getting on with the years, our eyes are not good enough for open sights, of any type.

Hence my exclusive use of a scope on my rifles.

The very few times I had to make a very quick shot at close range, it was done instinctively.

And the only way you can pull that off is by sheer luck, and may be little helping of past experience.

An Aimpoint Micro works very well as an open sight replacement for "experienced" eyes. I mounted one neatly on a .500 NE double rifle a few years ago by cutting a dovetail on the rifle's rib. When unmounted, the grooves were almost unnoticeable but when mounted the owner could once again hunt with his favorite rifle. A month after I mounted the red-or he took a massive Cape Buffalo at 40 yards.

Mark,

In my experience in Africa or anywhere else I think you'll be better served with a scope and of late I'm really liking the illuminated reticle in all light situations. I do see the use for the red dot sights at close range where magnification is irrelevant as it might be in elephant hunting.

Mark

Another vote for the Trijicon RMR, but with the smallest dot available. It will serve very well to 100 yards, even for old eyes, and shooting at unwounded DG at or beyond that distance rather defeats the purpose. Red dots are lightning fast, and no matter how you are holding the rifle, the bullet always goes where the dot is pointed.

I am probably not qualified to answer, as I have never faced a charging anything! However, I would imagine that when it comes down to saving ones own life with something bearing down at you from 10m or less, a scope will just get in the way, and even if your eyesight is so poor you can't see your sight see well enough to hit anything beyond 50m, you will be able to line up a properly fitted rifle to hit something at 10m, even if you can't focus on the sight that well. That is why I have QD mounts so I can take off my scope if something like the above situation is a possibility. Apart from that I have a compact Leupold 2X on my 505 Gibbs, and 470 double, and a 1.5 - 5 on my 416 Rigby. I have recently got an Aimpoint micro for the 470, and I plan to get one for the other big bores, as they are pretty quick sights to line up.

quote:

First question is about what evidence there is that open sights faster than scopes

There is not. A few years ago, our own Phil Shoemaker (458Win) if memory serves me, did a piece on one of the magazines specifically addressing this issue. I believe they used a low power scope vs irons and the scope won every time and that is my experience as well.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

First question is about what evidence there is that open sights faster than scopes

There is not. A few years ago, our own Phil Shoemaker (458Win) if memory serves me, did a piece on one of the magazines specifically addressing this issue. I believe they used a low power scope vs irons and the scope won every time and that is my experience as well.

Finn Aagaard did the same study and produced the same results as stated above.

I have transitioned to the Trijicon RMR for my double rifles. My old eyes just can't do what they used to and I find the Trijicon easy to see and I appear to be more accurate with a definite aiming point.

Rick, which size dot do you use....3.25"?

Biebs -

Use whatever the smallest available from the specific manufacturer. In the case of Trijicon it is a 3-4 MOA dot as I recall - Beau put one on his 500NE and it works great. Most red dots have a smallest available MOA dot of between 3 and 4. Anything larger will cover too much of the target. I can tell the difference between the 3 and 4 MOA dot and distinctly prefer the 3. I have used same on both a Ruger RSM 458Lott and a Merkel 500NE DR and both worked great.

The small red-dots are an incredible benefit to us older DG hunters. DocterOptic was the first but Burris, Trijicon, Leopold and others have designed similar sized devices, usually at lower prices and with USA warranties.

Trijicon's website lists one of their RMR models with a 1 MOA dot

Tim-

I just looked that up on the Trijicon website. I have never heard of the 1 MOA dot, nor seen one. It must be new. That is pretty small for quick pick-up with the eye under bush conditions, IMO. More likely designed for varmint/target shooters from a fixed rest with plenty of time is my guess.

I've got old eyes and scopes are for the best at any kind of "long range" which is 100 yards or more to me. I like the Swaros with a true 1-6. I think that covers just about anything I'll need.

The red dots are pretty incredible. I can remember shooting off hand at clay pigeons at 100 yards where the dot completely obliterated the target and breaking them more often than not. So while you think about a 3 MOA, which sounds huge to me, they seem to work well.

I still like a ghost ring and even with old eyes I think they work well in close. Assuming the rifle fits you.

Don't over look the triangle in trijicon--I love it. You use it like pistol irons-put the target on the tip of the triangle, not covering the target with it.

I personally prefer the green.

I used a peep sightfor all my culling work - On The F.N. it was standard and on my 9,3 it was a parkerhale after market job. It was Always fast enough.

that said - ask any IPSC shooter (my sport)of open sights vs some form of red dot (C- More still seems to be most popular in open division) and Leupold Delta Points in Limited.

I have tried many scopes and red dot sights on my 9,3 as my eyesight has deteriorated and now have an aimpoint Micro on it. I am not going to be shooting long range and it is faster than a peep sight ever was...US and Brit Militaries seem to have reached the same conclusion- Even the machineguns seem to wear an aimpoint, and in the more recent Pictures even the REMFs have an optic on their rifles.

Of all the ones I have used I Think the one F.N. fits as standard to their military only version of the P90 is the best - nothing to break...but the quatermaster at the Police Armoury wanted it back. ( Mugabe's Motorcycle Escort all have P90's as do our secret police.)

Be careful of the extended eye relief. Especially on the Swarovski, the eye piece is very long. If you're mounting directly to the tapped receivers on most bolts, you cannot move the scope forward enough to take advantage of the EE relief. To take full advantage of it, you may need to mount a rail on the tapped receivers, then mount the scope to the rail (where you can move it forward). Other models, such as Leupold, have much shorter eye pieces and give greater eye relief than a conventionally mounted Swarovski EE.

For DG I prefer red dots. The Aimpoints are very reliable, and I have a Docter mounted on my double. Keep the dot size in the 2-3 MOA. Models which automatically adjust dot brightness for ambient light are the best choice in my opinion.

Interesting point on the eye relief; it is an issue with the truly big bores anytime. I've been "kissed" by my Lott -- it just means she loves me. I've only been cut once and that was by a .375 that was too short for me.

But I like the idea of a ghost ring or a red dot on a dedicated DG rifle. My problem is I use my .416 for just about everything. I really can't justify bringing a larger rifle and generally bring something smaller as a #2.

I still practice with open sights at 15, 25 and 50 yards for quick snap shots, but in all honesty I'm better now and always have been with a low power scope even in those conditions. I've slowly been switching over to 1.5-5 Leupolds on all my rifles. Talley QR rings though, just in case.

quote:

Originally posted by Spooksar:
I use a Trijicon 1x4 with a green triangle works great. No batteries, nice and bright

ditto!

What about the German No. 1 reticle? At the very least, there's no battery to go dead at the wrong moment!

Never used the German No. 1. I do like the German No. 4.

Thank you for all the replies and they have have well answered my question . The animal I am planning to hunt is lion , relatively small , fast and lethal .

I am thinking to go for a scope rather than an Aimpoint or equivalent purely because I am very used to scopes . My choice is between a Swarovski 1-6 , 1.7-10 or one of the new Meopta Meostar R2 . I find the same as several posters that the illuminated reticles are superior for fast shooting , particularly the combination circle and dot .

Mark

If you get the Swarovski Z6i 1.7-10x42 you will never need another scope.
The illumination is great for cats in twilight or Buff in heavy bush and the range of magnification can cope with driven boar at close quarters or plains game at long range.
My lion wished that I hadn't had it anyway
Good luck with your hunt.

This Sightron 1x7 IR is the finest close range scope I've ever seen. Bright, proper eye relief, perfect magnification range, great FOV.

http://swfa.com/Sightron-1-7x2...flescope-P60663.aspx