Last year ---- long time ago ,I didnt plan on elephant hunting ,but was

surprised to have a licence to kill.So I read up on the matter and diligently

listened to relevant discussions here.
I acquired W D M Bell' Trilogy and enjoyed Karamajo,I obtained Mahohboh and

greaty appreciate the comments and precise help in that book.As an aside the

book got rid of my handicap of feeling bad shooting big elephants.According to

the carefully researches of Ron Thompson they absolutely need thinning.He has

many pictures and reports to prove or make the point.I recommend the book as

essential to anyone ever having even a chance to encounter elephant with or

without a rifle in hand.
But back to shot placement.The thought of standing 20 feet from a legal bull

scares the hell out of me.It wont stop me from doing so,but I will know that I am

demented doing it- a PH one trusts literally with your life is essential.One doesnt

learn how to shoot ele bull at close range by reading about it,and none of us will

ever have the chance to learn in battle.
Lung and heart shot aside,the head or brain shots are very tricky and require

precision in placement and angle, all without (showing) fear !
What an experience,I shall buy diapers for this year's hunt,and if I am lucky to

run into a legal beast will try to be prepared - thats all I can do.
I will see and dream and learn a 3 dimensional head shot until I know it,-- then

probably take a "safe" heart /lung shot and cop out.
We simply dont have enough money to learn a tricky shot - unless lady luck

shines and I think I can chance it,with my PH Pierre shadowing me.Do I sound in

fever?

if you have confidence in your self take the brain shot but if your not confident in your ability to make a brain shot take a safe shot heart/lung it dosnt make you any less of a man it just mean you should practise more until your confidence grows.

i took a nice elephant this past year with a frontal brain shot knocked his ass right out then i put one in his side to make shure.

Sheephunter,
Do you want to sell your copy of Mahohboh?

Sheephunter:

I've been up close and personal with a bunch of elephants with Pierre at my side. I didn't have a license at the time, but we knew that would be fixed (as it is in 2006). Everytime I saw an elephant, I told Pierre exactly where I would shoot if I had the opportunity. I'd also raise my rifle and whisper "bang", just "feeling" the sight picture. He'd correct me as to placement, if necessary. He'll certainly let you try a brain shot if you wish, shooting himself only if the animal comes at you or will "get away". I'd imagine that you'll see several elephant before you run into a Tanzania "legal" bull. Practice a bit.. It'll give you confidence.

Don't think that a heart shot is a cop out. You still need to study angles, etc. When your elephant is on the ground, you'll not fret that you shot for the basketball-sized heart instead of the loaf of bread-sized brain.

The elephant I shot this year spun to run and the brain was not an option. I hit him in the heart, then with the second shot of my .470 double broke the femur slightly below the shoulder blade. He didn't go ten feet before rolling in the dirt. When he tried to get up, I brained him, after which he did the Funky Chicken for a few seconds and was stone dead.

Just kill the dang elephant with the shot presented and savor the experience. You'll just remember him as the first (and immediately start planning the second), regardless of where you hit him.

Hmmm.

I have squirrel hunted all my life and us squirrel hunters head shoot squirrels with 22 rifles farther than 20yards,how can you miss a elephant at 20yrds.
Dang!!!Thats funny!!!You will be fine,I would practice until i could shoot just like jesse james or W.D.Bell!!!My advice would be to shoot then shoot again,maybe a double rifle would be the ticket!!Every elephant hunter needs them right!You gotta good excuse to get one now if you allready dont own one!I dont ever plan on elephant hunting,but if i did,a double rifle would be in my hands for sure!Theres a LOTT to be said for a one -two punch!Good Luck and get a big one!Oh yea have fun doing it,and beeeee careful!!

Bill:

Quit "Hmmmming" and share some of your experience with Sheephunter. You've killed more elephants than most any other non-professional on the forum. Temper your advice with the fact that Sheephunter will be "up close and personal" for the first time.

I'd like to learn, too.

Humor us.

... and I'm the resident "crotchity old fart".. Saeed pays me well for the position, so lighten up...

I don't know much but I'm trying.

Indeed the body shot (heart/lung) is indeed the safest shot. I have read sevral places, and heard it from many PH's, that once they fall from such they will never get up. That is not true, though they will croak eventually.

I have blown a few frontal brain shots. But it is not that tough, unless their ears are laid back. Then it is tough.

Taking the brain shot is best as it gets the ele out of the way, so you are ready for any subsequent trouble. It also alleviates any necessity of the PH getting involved (shooting your elephant). I have had a few PH's not recognize when an ele is brain shot! I had to reassure them.

Hunting by yourself is extremely dangerous. Thank God for PH's.

I do not believe in incidental elephants. Call be an SOB but I do not believe one should be elephant hunting without knowing where to shoot under all circumstances, even if it doesn't always get done properly.

Going at least mentally prepared is respecting the elephant. Asking the PH where to shoot doesn't do it for me. I feel elephant hunting requires some emotional attachment to elephant hunting, and not just money and an airline ticket.

But that's just me.

I think that sheephunter may be asking to see some pics of where to shoot, unless I misunderstood his post. Does anyone have pics they could post?

Here is a start:

For shot placement especially frontal headshots under very different angles click my Report direct.

The "Report"-page wouldn`t open.. Could you please try again, since that sounded very interesting..

quote:

Originally posted by Anders:
The "Report"-page wouldn`t open.. Could you please try again, since that sounded very interesting..

Anders,

go to: http://www.grosswildjagd.de/english1.htm click on "Elephant hunting", then go down to the bottom of the page and click on "Report 2".

Thanks to everyone chirping in here.
As I tried to indicate,I consider myself well-read on the subject ,thats the easy part.
Read Pondoro,Bell,Ron Thompson's Mahohboh,Saw Capsticks Elephant Video( quite unimpressive)
The best teaching by far- apart from multiple pictures pubished here on this forum - is from Mahohboh.
So lets say I am familiar with the doctrines of shot placements and angle variation.
I will shoot my "old" Rem .416 bolt, shooting NF solids,again, I see no problems there unless I fumble a second shot.

I posted the thread to get some warm sharing of how other novices reacted to the same overwhelming experience of being real close to a wall that can and maybe will step on you- and keeping ones cool- at least to the extent that one gets to within 20y and gets a shot in.
I think that alone is an accomplishment to remember.
Its nice to read that sable rattling turns charging ele,or that most charges are just a bluff -- stopping at 2-5 y - yeah right.

I dont even know how one gets to within 20y,them beasts smell and hear you!

Put another way - I think that is a great part of the "excitement" or desire for ele hunting.To overcome the inner weakness - that some might call common sense -

After reading the quite documentary stories or better notes of Pondoro,Bell and Thompson,I believe a head shot is the shot to take,preferably a side brain shot as the landmarks are easier to identify,so I probably will not shy away from that,in addition one doesnt look the adversary into his face - less frightening.Pants stay cleaner

Anyone here - other than Will of course - taken a frontal brain shot and care to share?
how did you keep your heart rate to survivable maximums?

Then too- I value the sharing of thoughts ,opinions and dreams with all fellows here.What a great club to share a common longing !

sheephunter,

I took a frontal brain on a cow. It was actually a follow up shot. The elephants were moving parallel to us, and when the cow the PH had picked out stepped into an opening in the brush, I shot her in the heart. She was walking forward, and I did not want to risk a brain shot. Well, at the shot she swung around and locked eyes on me. Just as she swung around, while she will still moving actually, I gave her a frontal brain and she collapsed. Her collapse was typical - butt first, front second. We moved off, and one other cow from the herd tried to flank us.

The other brain shot I took on elephant was a side brain. Typical reaction -rear end down, then front end down. But it seemed to be in slow motion. I was wired tight that day and popped her in the chest with the 2nd barrel as she went down.

Brain shots are fine, but if you miss the brain they will probably run off never to be seen again and you owe the trophy fee...The heart shot is an acceptable shot with all the PHs I know, and as a matter of fact seems to be the preferred shot, I personally like it.

Why is the brain shot so special on an elephant, and shunned on all other animals, never made since to me, thats where the BS lies, it is nostalgic IMO...Now I have a nostalgic side, but it does not apply in this case, however to each his own and those who want to take the brain shot, then its thier money and their safari, and good luck..

An elephant shot in the shoulder, and the shoulder breaks, after a few steps is stopped cold, can't go anywhere, he is pretty helpless on 3 legs...and a heart shot elephant is dead pretty quick, and they do leave a might big blood trail, wear hip waders!! ...

I would suggest that you take the best shot thats offered and make it count...and remember the books and magazines are filled with missed brain shots that ran off never to be seen again, and many an elephant has been killed that showed old head wounds..

Sheephunter,

Brain shot or heart lung shot and so much to consider when making the decision. I agree that Ron Thompsons book is the best info on this subject, at least from what I have read. Two issues he didn't cover in enough detail are, how far you aim below the ear slot on side brain shots depending on how close you are, how tall the elephant is, and if the elephant is standing up hill from you. The other is determining the exact position the animal is facing. My biggest surprise in elephant hunting was how difficult that can be. In one case I took a side brain shot that I figured would go straight through the head and found out that the bullet actually exited 8 inches forward of where I expected to see it exit.

I have attempted the brain shot for the initial shot on several occasions and was successful 67%% of the time (4 out of 6). It is not as easy as the books lead you to believe. I also tried the brain shot on follow up or insurance shots on 4 additonal occasions. Those were all succesful. Since you don't know how excited you will be and cosequently how well you can shot under stress it might be a good idea to use the heart lung shot on your first elephant and save the brain shot for a later ele. If you fel good when the time comes, have a clear side brain shot and your PH is in a position to back you up, then take it. One variable that hasn't been covered here is if your hunting cows or bulls.
Cows are much more likely to charge when their herds are in danger. If you shoot a bull with a brain shot and drop it on the spot the remaing bulls will in all probability run off. If you shoot a cow out of a cow hwerd and kill it on the spot or break a shoulder and anchor it the opposite is most likely to happen. The herd will most like not run off and the lead cow or cows will run to and frow, scream up a storm and look for you. You'll have a very exciting few minutes especially if one sees you and decides to charge. That exact scenario happened to me on my first elephant. I can say with authority that you don't want to have to stop your second elephant at 8 paces. If you take the shoulder shot the elephant will run off for 50 to 100 yds. The herd will run off with her and continue on when she falls.

Another important consideration is to have a clear understanding with your PH as to when and under what conditions he will back you up. Some PHs have been know to immediately fire after the client no matter where the clients bullet hits. I ask the PH to use his judgement but to not fire unless my brain shot misses and the brush is thick and I might not be able to get a second heart/lung shot off. You don't want to see an animal suffer needlessly, get away wounded and have to pay the trophy fee or needlessly endager the lives of you, the PH or the trackers.

Good Luck! Your in for a great adventure.

465H&H

Norbert, thank you for the link to your helpful report.












http://www.grosswildjagd.de/english1.htm

Do you have written permisssion to copy and post copyrighted material?

Will,

Actually I did not copy the material. If you click the button that will quote my post you will see it is directly linked in to Norbert's web site - no copies made.

465H&H I appreciate your comments - a lot
as it gives emphasis to assessing the angle of the shot,given the multitude of real world scenarios.
Ron Thompson pointed out the to me valuable guidance :understand where the rather small brain is located,then #2 ,visualize it in 3 dimensional space.
The above is why all downed elephants with nice clean holes in their head dont help me a bit,as the angle of the shot is the crucial part,not the entry wound or point.

Apparently the head of an elephant is quite large,so one has to be quite precise in visualizing in 3 dimensions where the gray matter is.
For me,the total -albeit well read- novice,
this means I need to see the opposite side of the head or be guaranteed that the head is at least level and horizontal.
A side shot seems to give better landmarks,but again you are absolutely correct that angulation is again important,same as the frontal approach.

Because of this difficulty - the math almost-the brain shot is so enticing,a great skill.

I shall remind myself of my green novice status whenever the occasion calls for judgement.

We are not market hunters and need not be concerned killing the whole herd before it runs off. Ray is absolutely on the mark ,pointing out that for the money a heart/lung shot is the one to take.
But if one feels the least bit artistic one has to admire a good brainshot.

As an aside, at HHK's Matetsi camp they have a split elephant skull sitting right by the bar. Somebody had a great idea, for sure.

I don't know how may hours I spent studing the thing. It was split on centerline front to back and I could look at the "intact" side from whatever angle I wished, then walk around to the other and see exactaly where the shot angle I chose would have traversed. It was invaluable... and when the time came to exercise the attained knowledge, my bullet exited the skull through the aural canal... which, most usually, will do just fine.

Anybody else just sit there with a sundowner and study that old skull. I'll bet it has been responsible for dozens of "good" brain shots.

I am most impressed with elephant trophy photos where the elephant is laying down with legs folded underneath, and the head facing forward, resting on the tusks. Is this most likely to be the result of a bran shot v. a heart shot? How difficult would it be to roll an elephant into this position should it die on it's side?

Judge,

I have to respectfully disagree. That and other split skulls do indeed show where the brain is locted, but to project that to a live elephant is another matter. If it helped you, so much the better, but it never did anything for me.

If you go back and look at the Outdoor Channel video of the Red Head equipment president (?) trying the frontal brain shot on that bull, you can see it is easily screwed up. The PH should have told the poor guy where to shoot. I figure it is more the PH's fault than the shooter. Maybe the PH just wanted to bang another elephant.

SBT:

I had the opportunity to see if I could cause a tuskless cow to "fold" upright. With a bow, that is.



Alas, as the picture shows, all I had in hand was a recurve. Not very effective, I'd think.

I took the picture over my shoulder as, when hauling ass, I passed the PH, who was back-peddling pretty hard, .458 in hand, until the cow was satisfied that our retreat was not "false" as we had quickly prayed, was her charge....

Everytime someone asks about frontal brain shots, I remember thinking "What the hell?... Either the damn elephant will kill my ass, or it won't. So I'd just as well take a picture."

As General "Fighting" Joe Hooker said near San Juan Hill after the 9th horse was shot out from underneath him in his distinguished career (which include generalship in both the U.S. and Confederate Armies and an election the the U.S. Congress) said, "Always a thrill!"

Bill:

I've had the relative unique opportunity of learning of your expertise and fortitude from someone who has "been there and done that" just a few feet from you while you have killed several elephant... and will do that again this year. I will NEVER second guess your opinion...

But the cow charge is pretty good, particularly considering that I took the picture with a 37mm lens.

Judge,

Elephant 101. So where are you going to shoot that cow?

Will:

I've had to edit this a couple of times because I'm typing pretty poorly this evening, so..

The appogee (is that right) of the tragectory would need to cross a point that would transverse the point between the ear holes. I have no way of superimposing that point upon the picture, but it would be slightly above center point between the eyes.... well above the "usual" frontal shot as I was above the old girl.

I remember well being surprised that this elephant's head was as if it was upon a gyroscope. Everything was moving, but the head, and therefore, the eyes of this lady of evil intent.. her eyes were just as steady as if they were on a wire, coming directly towards me...

Still, even backing away, If I had had a good rifle in hand, I really think I could've busted her butt.. again, if I had a real DG gun in my quivering-ass mitts instead of a 70# bow.

I'll never encourage another chapter of this experience, but I think I'll be ready if it if happens again.. ( since then, I've had 25 or 60 elephant get pissed and come at me, but without the absolute seriousness.. and none so damn loud as that first bitch!).. and... with all due respect to the .375 lovers, I really believe a good .45 caliber (and above) double is the way to do it. 5000 ft. #'s of energy with lots of frontal area is better than 4000 or so. Take a similar picture and disagree and I'll value your opinion.


In any event, all this experience did for me was encouage my stupid self to get back where it can happen again. Go figure.

Very interesting thread.

How about the "Hind Head Shot," at the foramen magnum where the spinal cord enters the skull, you know, that big hole in the back of the head?

That would be instant death to break the neck there.

The one elephant I watched the butchery of in Botswana had just been dumped by a tycoon with that shot.

Seems he was supposed to make the side brain shot, but the elephant moved on quicker than anticipated.

He let fly with his .500 NE H&H Royal double of brand new six-figure make. The gun doubled on him and at least one of the bullets broke the neck or pierced the brain, or both.

I did not stay around for the completion of the autopsy on the sixty pounder bull.

Is this a good shot or just for the expert or cull shooter?

Is breaking a hip on a departing wounded elephant recommended?

Time to get a bit advanced here.

JudgeG,

For me, I have this inate, but incorrect, tendency to shoot them "between the eyes."

You can see on the left side of her head where it dips in toward the center about 8" above her eyes. That is the correct elevation in this case. When their head gets somewhat low, as it is in the perspective of the photograph, you have to shoot higher.

The big secret, though, is that most of the time a close miss will drop the cow anyway, but unfortunately it doesn't happen every time.

Of course, it helps if one can keep from running like hell, and peeing in their pants! They are an intimidating adversary. Scary stuff, ain't it?

RIP,

The neck joint (I forget what the technical term is, axis?) shot happens most often by mistake, as you noted. I did it once, by mistake! I'd hate to take it or the hip shot on a running elephant, unless it is wounded and getting away. I don't think I am that good a shot or that cool under stress.

Will,
O.K. The atlas (C1) and the axis (C2) are the first cervical vertebrae on humans and elephants eh? Break either one and instant death like a hangman's fracture.

I won't go looking for either of those shots, but they could be handy on the south side of a northbound wounded elephant.

Bill:

I think we agree on where to shoot the oncoming cow??

Gee, we are bright fellows.

Earlier comments aside, you being the ultimite crusty old fart.. I'd love to pay observer fees and watch you and Brent do your thing. Stay well and let me follow you in 2006 for a few days. It would be fun to see you dust a few good bulls.

Keep the faith, fellow!

You are a treasure.

I'm with Will on this one...

Hmmmmmmm

JudgeG,
That, is a great photo! Can't wait for the Selous in 2006!

Sheephunter,

You will track and approach a few Elephant (unless the first one is an absolute keeper) use these opportunities to firstly get used to being around the Elephant and once you've made the approaches, envision your shot placement and the options. In short a couple of dry runs.
Will offers good advice in that you should study and familiarize yourself with the different shot placements and options be it first or follow up shots.
Many ph's do not like shooting a hunters animal unless it is very clear that the hunting party are in trouble or are going to be very shortly. With that said you and the ph should discuss when and under what circumstances back up shots will be taken before you head out. This ties in with you taking a brain shot and not wanting to lose firstly and ultimately the animal and then your trophy fee as well. When hunters insist on brain shots most ph's will back up with a body shot. In this case scenario the ph will see if the animal goes down immediately or not. Should the Elephant go down immediately all that remains is for you to get up to the animal and make your insurance shot/s. My opinion is heart/lung shots here so that if the Elephant was just "knocked out" we know that the insurance shots are exactly that.
If there is more than one Elephant there are a few considerations to make. Flight and fight zones. Elephants will almost always try even if it is just briefly and hold there mate up or get him/her to stand up and in the mean time sniff the air or rush in the directions that they believe the threat is or to push the threat out to get a visuall or homing beacon. Bulls may hang around for a bit to see if their buddy gets up or roused or move off after a while. There are a lot of variables during this time, you may decide to stand dead still (I am not including the adrenaline shakes, I mean as still as possible) or retreat in a manner that the situation requires. These are things that you and your ph will discuss.
It doesnt matter if youve been around no Elephants or hundreds their presence commands respect and wobbly knees counts as respect. This subject can be discussed at length and there are many variables, approaches and opinions to be considered and therefore, it is important that you don't put pressure on yourself, just go out and enjoy the experience.

sheephunter:
quote>> The above is why all downed elephants with nice clean holes in their head dont help me a bit,as the angle of the shot is the crucial part,not the entry wound or point.<<
More on the angles for the images above on the original website.

RIP: quote>> Neckshot: Is this a good shot or just for the expert or cull shooter?<<
It is a very effective shot for eles just running away and often presenting their neck behind the ears at an angle of ca. 45°. I did it sometimes, when the side brain shot was not instant deadly and the ele stood up again.

>> Is breaking a hip on a departing wounded elephant recommended?<<
Best opportunity to stop the wounded ele. Better would be the backside spin shot, but the placement is not as easy as with the hip.

But as V. Fulton pointed out, there are so many variables in ele hunting that is is very difficult to give a recipe how to approach and shoot an ele and react on the situation thereafter.

I always try to come into a position for a frontal head shot. I don´t know why, but with side brain shots I experiences some bad shots, whilst with numerous frontal shots I had always success. Sometimes I made a "dual" death, because after passing the brain the SP bullet additionally broke the neck.

This is a great thread from a few years ago. Thought I'd bring it up again as I prepare for my elephant hunt.

Hello all

My 2 cents worth, I had a client in camp last month on Elephant hunt, and after talking too him, I realized his research might have been a bit dodgy,

So I did the next best thing Iknow at this stage :

drum roll Please .....

Buzz Charlton's video on Elephant was reviewed every night , and it worked like a charm, now he knows more than ever before,

accept too shoot a elephant on a 10 day hunt , and expecting a 70 pounder, is a little bit ambitious, had him 7 ( yes seven ) meters from beautifully shaped +/- 45 pounder, but no MUST BE 65 POUNDS OR BETTTER !@!@#$@#%

Well the client is always right as he pays the bill, right

Buzz, I really like your video for training purposes, thanks great job

Walter

After killing exactly one elephant, I have exactly one useful piece of advice.

If your elephant doesn,t fall down immediately to your shot, keep shooting. Shoot, shoot and shoot some more until it does fall down. Then shoot it again.

j

Sheephunter, Dont let anyone including me talk you into or out of a shot. Take what you feel comfortable with and go for it. That said dont take time to admire your handiwork. Load and shoot untill that sucker is down and stays down. That is the only hard and fast rule I have for myself on dangerous game. Shoot, shoot, shoot. If it starts to run start pumping rounds into the hip to break him down. That dosnt mean dont take a spine or head shot if presented. Just try to do the most damage in the shortest time and stop what could be a couple long days of tracking. Let your ph do the fancy shooting if needed. All you should worry about is either putting the animal down and if need be breaking it down so it cant run far or fast. I know you have read all the books just like I did. You understand technically what should happen and I am relatively sure you are more than competent to make the shot. That said sometimes things dont go as planned. Maybe the elephant didnt read the damn book. Anyway even if it all goes perfect nothing and I mean nothing else you have hunted, nor your study and practice will truly prepare you for this. It is only after you have donne it you can begin to truly understand Now that I have sounded like yoda from star wars, maybe because I look like him, it is time to lighten up. You can do it. Just take a couple deep breaths, try to relax and go for it. You do have someone backing you up if you need it. Just tell yourself if Mike can do it I can dot it.