Is it just me, or is there somewhere on this site a hidden code of conduct against growing a set of balls and ratting out Outfitters/PH's that have screwed a person over on a hunt?

Continually, people come on here and post complaints about a hunt gone bad, yet refuse to name names.

What the hell does that accommplish in the long run????

Personnel gratifacation that some of us will agree that you got fucked.

Grow some balls-guts and spine and give names and factual information so that some other poor schmuck won't get screwed.

The only way the industry, world wide, not just in Africa will get cleaned up is by exposing these folks and their questionable or illegal activities.

JMO.

Many times, when someone posts a negative report, they get raked over the coals by friends, associates, clients, etc. of the PH/outfitter/guide.

quote:

Many times, when someone posts a negative report, they get raked over the coals by friends, associates, clients, etc. of the PH/outfitter/guide.

I believe that will be the best answer going.

Somehow it does not seem like a good answer, but I guess it is easier and better to attack the person making the complaint and question their intentions, then giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Could some of this be credited toward people having unrealistic attitudes/impressions toward PH's?

I think it is all in the presentation, for instance instead of saying "XYZ Outfitters really screwed me good and are a bunch of Crooks" You could say :I booked with XYZ Outfitters and this is what happened" Then give the facts. When all you state is the outfitter I booked with Screwed me, you are not helping anyone. Also be sure the problems encountered were really the fault of the outfitter and not caused by something beyond their control. Also do not leave out facts like if the outfitter did anything to try and make things right. We need to inform the members here about outfitters that perform poorly as well as reward the outfitters that do a good job. A PH lives by his or her reputation and we need to support the good ones as well as point out the bad ones. If we condemm one it must be done fairly and accurately. Just my .02 cents worth.

The situations a lot of times can be a "He said, She said" thing. Or maybe just a personality conflict. It's very difficult to know what the truth really is unless the outfitter does something illegal. Nearly every booking agent and a few ph's on here have had something bad written about them. My wife and I had a serious problem with a Zim PH a few years ago and when I posted it his best friend immediately raked me over the coals, without even being there, or knowing anything about what happened, he took the PH's side, so I withdrew the post not wanting to get into a pissing match. I realized there was no point in it.
It's like listening to two sides of a divorce, the truth will usually land somewhere in the middle.

There is always two sides to every incident.

An owner/agent/PH should be given the opportunity to present the facts from their point of view.

The court of public opinion can be disastrous to someone's livelihood.

If a hunt provider does not respond, so be it.

"Just the facts jack!!"

Post the facts and let the chips fall where they may.

As far as I know, there is no code of anything other than do not attack Saeed too much or say bad things about someone's wife.

I would suggest keeping the profanity off as a courtesy, but that is a bit lax.

Discontent is discontent. Whether it is merited or not, it's still the client perception of events, and the vendor must work to overcome even an unjustified discontent. Granted there's no pleasing some people and others are simply crazy or incorrigible mooches, but the onus will always be in the vendor to sway the client perception.

One of the many benefits of a very good reputation is that one is given the benefit of the doubt when questions arise.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Is it just me, or is there somewhere on this site a hidden code of conduct against growing a set of balls and ratting out Outfitters/PH's that have screwed a person over on a hunt?

Continually, people come on here and post complaints about a hunt gone bad, yet refuse to name names.

What the hell does that accommplish in the long run????

Personnel gratifacation that some of us will agree that you got fucked.

Grow some balls-guts and spine and give names and factual information so that some other poor schmuck won't get screwed.

The only way the industry, world wide, not just in Africa will get cleaned up is by exposing these folks and their questionable or illegal activities.

JMO.

JMO, I don't think there is any code against outing a bad PH, or Outfitter, but what usually happens is, these things turn into a KANGAROO COURTS, with people who have no idea what they are talking about making statements as FACT, that are nothing more than opinion. In most cases OPINION that is based on nothing more than the first account of the problem they read.

This is why in real courts there is a CHANGE OF VINUE provision for a case where there has been too much public testimony by people who have only what they have heard in the streets (in this case the Internet forums) to base their findings on.

If there is substance to any complaint, or to the defense that rules out that substance, it needs to be settled in a real court with witnesses who actually have first hand knowledge on the charge's validity, or lack there of!

I personally know of folks here on AR who was hurt badly by such a KANGAROO COURT, and I refuse to participate in one!

I understand that "enquiring minds want to know", but just like the enquirer magazine system is not the best of all worlds for true information, the Internet, is no better!

How would you like to be innocent, and be trashed by a bunch of Internet heroes who have no idea what the truth really is? Testimony on the Internet is nothing more than gossip, by a lynch mob!
....................

Say whatever you want to. But if you dish it out you gotta be able to take it. I should know!

I'd bet some whiners about outfitters might just be whiners in general.

But you are right. I've had some worse than worse PH's but I just keep it to myself. They probably thought the same about me!

I have a feeling a lot goes through PMs rather than being posted on the board...

This is a real problem. Wanting to be an informed customer means doing some research before I buy. This site is one of the first I check. I try to be sensitive to a KANGAROO COURT and to those trying to use the web to intimidate others into a course of action. I am also aware that the web has pathological liars and 13 year olds. However I usually start with the web. The emphasis being on start. Depending on the seriousness of my purchase, I usually ask for references and follow up on those. Obviously, I expect to get references to folks who have had good experiences. Even those are informative. If the referenced person will have patience with me I try to find what was good about the experience, what they would like to change etc. Sometimes a good experience to someone else is not the experience I am seeking.
Like it or not, the web is a major means of communication. We need to learn how to work it to our advantage. Unfortunately, the laws and culture have not kept pace with the technology. There are very few rules of engagement.

i think folks are more conscious of getting sued for libel and slander. posting on a site like this constitutes publication.

A heavily moderated hunt report section that only allows the client, agent, outfitter and PH to post would be a step in the right direction.

A standard format without emotion should be enforced on it too.

Start with the drama and name calling and your comments get deleted.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
i think folks are more conscious of getting sued for libel and slander. posting on a site like this constitutes publication.

Absolutely right. The laws are very complicated but generally speaking you can usually sue in any country where the site can be viewed. You can also often sue not only the libeller but also ISP etc. I believe the countries with the most draconian laws in this respect are the UK & Australia.

One ISP that hosted a blog where a libel was committed was sued a while ago. In the end they settled out of court. Some reports claimed their total cost including compensation to the libelee was in the region of UKP1M.

Don't know if we have any internet libel lawyers on the forum but if we do, I'd be interested in their opinion?

Try doing a Google on internet libel and you'll see how careful one has to be.

But then there are those outfitters and booking agents who preemptively strike if they know they've screwed up instead of simply apologizing and moving on.

The ones who make promises that they'll come right who promise phone calls and meetings with their people on the ground in Zimbabwe to explain their dirty laundry in person and get the facts straight about why they tried to overcharge you on daily fees but when the scheduled time comes for those phone calls they simply blow you off thinking that you won't remember.

Hunt report and full disclosure with names e-mails etc to follow very soon if I don't hear them as promised.

For many of us the last thing we want to do is get in a dispute or contest on a public forum. It has nothing to do with libel laws or other such issues but more attempting to work out a dispute with only the people involved.

I had a transaction that did not work out with an AR member. I simply asked that person to fulfill his obligations and I expressed my willingness to work out an acceptable repayment program. The guy would not even return my telephone calls, sent me an email reply saying "talk to my lawyer".

Prior to this, I had never sued an indivdual on a personal business matter but have done so many times on behalf of Clients. In this case, I had no option as this AR member refused to work out anything acceptable.

I sued that individual, he did not show up for court. I put on my evidence and won a Judgment. The AR member appealed, which is his right, and he lost the Appeal. I have a second Judgment against him plus interest and court costs.

This individuals refuses to pay me, says he will Appeal again! Hey, thats his right. I will let this show run its course but he should know by now that I will see this until the end.

There may be a time to make things public, just not the right time in this case. The Judgments I have against this individual and his company are certainly public knowledge.

Ah,yes! Once again, I hear the voice of a Texan speaking up. (Texans never seem to care if they are facing odds!) I owe a full confession - some of my mother's people settled in Mundy, Texas (somewhat north of Waco) even before "The War". (My father and I being Yankees never missed a chance to make a joke about Texas - but one joke we never made was that we didn't admire and like our biggest state (Alaska was an outlying territory in those days)
Having delivered a lengthy prelude - I think Crazyhorse has put a cat among the pigeons. I have read the guarded responbses and am leaning towards Crazyhorse's challenge = What about it? (Instead I read truly "lawyerly" responses -and I'm a retired trial lawyer of some 45 years standing -and I know when I am reading weasel responses. I don't mean to insult good outfitters and PHs. I want to hasten to emphasize that I had a perfect hunt for buff and I enjoyed every moment in the bush -every day -and was friends with the outfitter and the PH to the very day I left Africa (and, yes, my buff arrived in perfect condition within less than 6 months afterwards) - but I can understand that some people may have been shortchanged -and that's what Crazyhorse is talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Is it just me, or is there somewhere on this site a hidden code of conduct against growing a set of balls and ratting out Outfitters/PH's that have screwed a person over on a hunt?

Continually, people come on here and post complaints about a hunt gone bad, yet refuse to name names.

What the hell does that accommplish in the long run????

Personnel gratifacation that some of us will agree that you got fucked.

Grow some balls-guts and spine and give names and factual information so that some other poor schmuck won't get screwed.

The only way the industry, world wide, not just in Africa will get cleaned up is by exposing these folks and their questionable or illegal activities.

JMO.

I agree with you


but those who post a complaint, often times are taken to the woodshed quick on this forum-----even if you post info on the infamous OOA. Look at how fast internet judges jumped all over any hunter that booked with them (in past threads)

who the hell wants to go "public" and have that much mud thrown at them.
I am with you, and hope screwed hunters would post with all info, but I can understand why they would want to deal with it privately instead of publicly

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Many times, when someone posts a negative report, they get raked over the coals by friends, associates, clients, etc. of the PH/outfitter/guide.

There have even been times where responses have originally been along the lines of "name this rotten cheating outfitter, salesman, etc." and it quickly turns into a bashing of the original poster by the same people who were saying that he got taken by a dishonest outfitter.

quote:

I am also aware that the web has pathological liars and 13 year olds

Here???? I love it!!! A pathological liar and a 13 year old? Well, that only accounts for 2 of us...and the rest are worse!!!!

LOLOL

A heavily moderated hunt report section that only allows the client, agent, outfitter and PH to post would be a step in the right direction.



That is the best solution to the situation.

Fix it so the Peanut Gallery-Kangaroo Court-wharever you want to call it, Can Not Make One Single Comment.

If it ever came to pass that I were able to go to Africa after a Dugga Boy and I booked with a hunter that someone knew was disreputable, yet did not have the balls enough to address the situation on a Public Forum, if I ever caught up with said person there would be an Ass Whoopin' involved.

It might be my ass that got whipped, but the son-of-a-bitch would damn sure know that with holding such information does no one any good.

Call them as you see them. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of what transpired. However, make sure you have some idea of what you are talking about. Then if you are shown to be wrong step up and appologize promptly and graciously. I have held out once or twice saying anything negative about an outfit, at least for a while. The one occassion I was just giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. I figure shit happens and isnt necesarrily indicative of the normal opperation. when there is second and third f up with people I know and trust then I will come out with the whole story. It will be an honest accounting of what transpired good, bad, or ugly.The other reson to not say something immeadiately is there are people working in the background to solve things. There must beenough time allowed for them to work on the problem. Figuring out how much time is enough is highly difficul and variable. Now if someone starts to piss me off by calling names and making ridiculous statements to try and discredit me somehow the gloves come off. I will go head to head with any of them provided I thnk they arent below the level where I think it is even worthwhile. Rememder most people arent crooks. There are enough to go around however. At times bad things happen to good people, it is how the parties involved step up and handle these things that speaks volumes about the type of people they are.I have only a couple hard and fast rules:

1 Dont lie to me, I dont care what has or is going to transpire. Just lay it out and let me deal with it. I might not like it but at least I can make rational decisions on how to procede.

2 Dont pass the buck on who is to blame. Acceppt it and own it as your own. Then solve it. You can deal with your staff in private later.

3 Your good to your word. If you promise something it should damn well happen as agreed upon. In the event something has happened that just make this impossible you have one choice. You must lay it all out to the client or the outfitter. After laying it out ask the ooffended party how the want to handle whatever it is so that you all can move ahead from there. This applys for sales transactions as well. Look them in the face , explain why you cant meet the terms of your agreemeen and ask them what they want to do to try and procced from there.

4 This is my biggest. Dont threaten me. I dont care. I will not back down. In fact things will escalate rapidly and in an ugly manner. It could be physically, but most often will be legaly. If it goes that far I take on a scorched earth policy. Once I start I wont stop until there has been complete destruction of the offendig agent. I dont like thieves period.
Enough said there. Wether on not I like somone only buys time in that I a more lenient with you types because of the personal relationship.
5 Dont lie you will almost always get caught.

6 I you cant make your point without name calling and being vulgar you dont have an arguable point. Go back and think about what you want to say. When you are able to state your case without that you are ready to proceed.
7 Everything will be made public in due time
Mike

It can be tough to say something bad for a number of reasons. First of all, many people seem to fall in love with their former PHs, and can't stand to see anything bad said about them. Second, the hunter may have seen some warning signs and is feeling a little too sheepish to admit that they have been had. Con artists thrive on marks that don't even admit they've been taken, never mind telling the world.
In spite of this, I posted a couple of negative reports (same hunt)on two different forums. Response varied, but truth is truth and is a rather good defence. When the dust settled, an owner had lost his professional association membership, been refused an American visa, a couple government officials had lost their jobs, and somewhere along the way I may have been called a liar, or maybe just stupid.
On the otherhand, I got a flood of PMs and emails from other hunters that had bad experiences with the same outfit who wanted to file reports with the game department. One could wish that they had perhaps posted their own bad experiences so I could have had more warning, but people have their own reasons.
I also got to aid in a small way in an investigation. All in all, the negatives were worth it.
Something that came up alot, was the expressed fear that if something negative was posted, then something bad would happen to any trophies. Saddly, that turned out to be true.

We are still at square one, something needs to be done to expose those folks that are not delivering what they promise.

If clients can not come forward, for fear of being ostracized, than what good is reporting anything on this site or any other?

As others have stated, even for the best of us, things can go wrong, things we have no control over, swallow your pride and ego and set the client down and lay everything on the table.

Lrt the client make the decision, it is THEIR hunt, not the Guides/PH's.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
We are still at square one, something needs to be done to expose those folks that are not delivering what they promise.

If clients can not come forward, for fear of being ostracized, than what good is reporting anything on this site or any other?

As others have stated, even for the best of us, things can go wrong, things we have no control over, swallow your pride and ego and set the client down and lay everything on the table.

Lrt the client make the decision, it is THEIR hunt, not the Guides/PH's.

Agreed. Let the people tell their story without being attacked. As their story unfolds so do the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Is it just me, or is there somewhere on this site a hidden code of conduct against growing a set of balls and ratting out Outfitters/PH's that have screwed a person over on a hunt?

Continually, people come on here and post complaints about a hunt gone bad, yet refuse to name names.

What the hell does that accommplish in the long run????

Personnel gratifacation that some of us will agree that you got fucked.

Grow some balls-guts and spine and give names and factual information so that some other poor schmuck won't get screwed.

The only way the industry, world wide, not just in Africa will get cleaned up is by exposing these folks and their questionable or illegal activities.

JMO.

JMO, I don't think there is any code against outing a bad PH, or Outfitter, but what usually happens is, these things turn into a KANGAROO COURTS, with people who have no idea what they are talking about making statements as FACT, that are nothing more than opinion. In most cases OPINION that is based on nothing more than the first account of the problem they read.

This is why in real courts there is a CHANGE OF VINUE provision for a case where there has been too much public testimony by people who have only what they have heard in the streets (in this case the Internet forums) to base their findings on.

If there is substance to any complaint, or to the defense that rules out that substance, it needs to be settled in a real court with witnesses who actually have first hand knowledge on the charge's validity, or lack there of!

I personally know of folks here on AR who was hurt badly by such a KANGAROO COURT, and I refuse to participate in one!

I understand that "enquiring minds want to know", but just like the enquirer magazine system is not the best of all worlds for true information, the Internet, is no better!

How would you like to be innocent, and be trashed by a bunch of Internet heroes who have no idea what the truth really is? Testimony on the Internet is nothing more than gossip, by a lynch mob!
....................

Excellent comments.

I've had bit of trouble with a couple of PH's, but I'm not about to hang it out here on AR and get involved with the Internet Debating Society, many of whom have never been to Africa or would know the PH's in question. It's better to inform the outfitter and/or booking agent of th problems and let it get settled within house. It has worked for me.

quote:

Posted 29 January 2010 23:14
Is it just me, or is there somewhere on this site a hidden code of conduct against growing a set of balls and ratting out Outfitters/PH's that have screwed a person over on a hunt?

Continually, people come on here and post complaints about a hunt gone bad, yet refuse to name names.

What the hell does that accommplish in the long run????

Personnel gratifacation that some of us will agree that you got fucked.

Grow some balls-guts and spine and give names and factual information so that some other poor schmuck won't get screwed.

The only way the industry, world wide, not just in Africa will get cleaned up is by exposing these folks and their questionable or illegal activities.

JMO.
----------------------------

Many times, when someone posts a negative report, they get raked over the coals by friends, associates, clients, etc. of the PH/outfitter/guide.

-------------------------------
First I don't think there is a "thin khaki/camo line" like the "Thin Blue Line". I think everyone has a frame of reference they see the world through. But I think we do need honest opinions about hunting experiences, good or bad. Everyone can express an opinion of "happy or not happy" with any good or service, and supporting information allows us to decide if it's reasonable.

Funny, but I think I read the perfect example of your question (and the accuracy of the answer quoted above) a month or so back by a poster called "WannaBeBwana". He did "name names" eventually and there was a through thrashing of the scoundrel by the Happy Supporter Clan almost immediately. In that case the villian wore the garb of both a Travel Agency and a PH, but the counter attack was the same - as Charles_Helm predicted. But I think it is to be expected. If I had a good experience (as I assume the majority of clients of a going concern would) then I should report it and name names when it's relevant. By the same notion, the admittedly fewer complaints should get equal time. Perhaps the specific problems included in the unhappy reports can be addressed before "my" trip and avoided.

Strangely, I think I appreciated the retelling and naming as it is another piece of info to digest. Not to assume that either side of such a fray is "right" or "wrong", but simply to include it in my deliberations. Most reasonable people do understand that no one is perfect or handles everything perfectly - applying the "Ruark Rule" as some poster dubbed it. Knowing where the rubs were might help everyone in the future though.

Unfortunately, even in a real court, in an unbiased venue, some Kangaroo exists - Justice gets lost in the law all the time...If we cannot get real reports of experience here, where would we get them? The seller won't include any detrimental reports, only glowing references; participants in a legal procceeding usually can't talk of it.

Do we have to use our brains and filter whiners and BS?
Sure, as we always do. Somehow we manage in everyday life.

Let supporters and detractors type - adults can read both and decide, we can "handle the truth".

Most reputable outfitters will give you a list of the past years clients to contact about their safari. So you can cll those for a reference. I suggest thst we just post the reults of our hunt without getting personal if there were problems and offer to give a recomendation (or not) on that outfitter. If somone is interested in hunting with them I personally would be willing to talk with them and give an unbiased an evaluattion as I can.

465H&H

There is also this "unwritten code" when dealing with certain buyers/sellers and gunsmiths on this forum. You are not imagining anything.